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Posted: 10/6/2005 5:36:38 PM EDT
I know a person who just destroyed his career in LE.

He started out as a volunteer in the local county sheriff reserve.  He got on full time with the same county in the jail.  He worked himself up to a training officer in corrections at the jail.  He paid for the local police academy himself and completed it with flying colors.  He just got on this spring with a local PD.  A really great place to work and has loved it since he started.

He's a dumb 20 something though...

He got a DUI a few weeks ago.  Got fired.  Game over.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 5:38:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:17:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 7:17:17 PM EDT by vanilla_gorilla]
Hell, I know a guy working the road that got caught DUI. Guess what, now he's in a traffic unit, doing, guess what...DUI enforcement.  


Ahhhh if only I had somebody important looking out for me like that.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:21:27 PM EDT
Dont ya just love cops that think they r above the law
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:26:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2005 7:26:34 PM EDT by npd233]
Doubt he destroyed his career There are other jobs. It wouldn't be unheard of for him to get hired on somewhere else. If not, there are other options for employment. He'll get over it, maybe he'll even learn a lesson.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 7:29:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawker:
Dont ya just love cops that think they r above the law



First time DUI convictions don't cost the guilt party their job in most occupations.  Let he with out sin cast the first stone.  

Regards,
Gary
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 8:38:57 PM EDT
I know a guy that can tell a very similar story.

Didn't get fired though, he quit. But who knows if he would have gotten fired if he chose to try and keep his job.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 6:15:46 AM EDT
......there's an old saying about a "womans' ass & a whiskey glass"...........................
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 7:43:33 AM EDT
"Booze, broads and bills" in that order was the speech I got when I was hired.

We had a young HSLD rookie from a local agency here drive DUI and kill a kid getting on a schoolbus. Then he fled the scene.    

IMHO, a DUI is the pinnacle of hypocrisy for a cop.  YMMV.  
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 9:19:46 AM EDT
Around here it's been more the "woman's ass" that's been the problem.  
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 9:21:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LastDefender:

Originally Posted By Hawker:
Dont ya just love cops that think they r above the law



First time DUI convictions don't cost the guilt party their job in most occupations.  Let he with out sin cast the first stone.  

Regards,
Gary



That would really cut down on LEO activates overall.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 9:31:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2005 9:31:36 AM EDT by LastDefender]

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By LastDefender:

Originally Posted By Hawker:
Dont ya just love cops that think they r above the law



First time DUI convictions don't cost the guilt party their job in most occupations.  Let he with out sin cast the first stone.  

Regards,
Gary



That would really cut down on LEO activates overall.





My point being that if a brick layer or a plumber or and engineer are cited for .08 BAC, they aren't fired.  I did not mean that LEO's are or should be, above the law.  In the case of a DUI conviction, the penalty is far greater for the LEO than the non-LEO as it should be.   Most of us somewhere along the line drove will intoxicated.  Few however face loss of their career by doing so.

Regards,
Gary

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 9:41:35 AM EDT
He could get hired on at Little Rock in 3 years.....
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 9:43:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LastDefender:

Originally Posted By Hawker:
Dont ya just love cops that think they r above the law



First time DUI convictions don't cost the guilt party their job in most occupations.  Let he with out sin cast the first stone.  

Regards,
Gary


I would be done, see with a DUI you are without a a DL for a minimum of 60 days and where I work if you dont have an active CDL for a period of longer then 30 days you are considered inactive and removed from duties. I dont any longer need to maintian a CDL although I do but I work in a safety sensitive position by Govt standards therefore it applies to me as well.



Cab 30 bucks DUI mega bucks do the math.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 2:48:02 PM EDT
damn didnt they offer him a trip to the "farm".??

and not to forget we did take the job with

The # 1 divorce rate
       #1 alcoholic rate
and sadly  # 1 sucide rate..  
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 3:53:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By B00ST3D:
damn didnt they offer him a trip to the "farm".??

and not to forget we did take the job with

The # 1 divorce rate
       #1 alcoholic rate
and sadly  # 1 sucide rate..  



Causation or correlation?

Maybe the profession attracts people predisposed to those things.  And other things.
Link Posted: 10/7/2005 5:52:04 PM EDT

Maybe the profession attracts people predisposed to those things. And other things.


How long have you been an Officer?

Link Posted: 10/7/2005 6:17:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:

Maybe the profession attracts people predisposed to those things. And other things.


How long have you been an Officer?




I was wondering the same thing as TxLawDog.  Some of the finest people I ever met in my life have worn or wear a policeman's uniform.
Link Posted: 10/9/2005 5:40:57 AM EDT
Yup, pretty much screwed.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:23:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 8:25:58 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:

Maybe the profession attracts people predisposed to those things. And other things.


How long have you been an Officer?




I'm not.  Maybe there's a reason I wasn't drawn to it.


ETA:  Oh, wait…I bet you’re trying to insinuate that unless someone is a cop they can’t comment on, understand or theorize about cops.  That’s silly.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:36:48 AM EDT
Pilots.
Military officers.
Combination of both.

We don't take kindly to DUIs.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:37:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawker:
Dont ya just love cops that think they r above the law



Get the F out of here, TROLL!
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:39:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 8:40:39 AM EDT by markm]

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

I'm not.  Maybe there's a reason I wasn't drawn to it.


ETA:  Oh, wait…I bet you’re trying to insinuate that unless someone is a cop they can’t comment on, understand or theorize about cops.  That’s silly.



I think he's pointing out that this isn't the GD.  The LE forum is not for LE bashing IIRC.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 8:44:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

I'm not.  Maybe there's a reason I wasn't drawn to it.


ETA:  Oh, wait…I bet you’re trying to insinuate that unless someone is a cop they can’t comment on, understand or theorize about cops.  That’s silly.



I think he's pointing out that this isn't the GD.  The LE forum is not for LE bashing IIRC.



Was that bashing?
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 10:35:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JustinOK34:
Pilots.
Military officers.
Combination of both.

We don't take kindly to DUIs.



If you drink, don't drive.... Don't even putt!!
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 10:53:44 AM EDT

I'm not. Maybe there's a reason I wasn't drawn to it.


ETA: Oh, wait…I bet you’re trying to insinuate that unless someone is a cop they can’t comment on, understand or theorize about cops. That’s silly.




I'm not claiming that you were bashing, but at least share your current career choice with us so that we might be able to make broad unsubstantiated claims about what you do.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 11:15:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 11:16:13 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:

I'm not. Maybe there's a reason I wasn't drawn to it.


ETA: Oh, wait…I bet you’re trying to insinuate that unless someone is a cop they can’t comment on, understand or theorize about cops. That’s silly.




I'm not claiming that you were bashing, but at least share your current career choice with us so that we might be able to make broad unsubstantiated claims about what you do.



You were the one that said people in LE are prone to certain things, not me.
I was just suggesting a possible explanation for the observation you made.  I'm not going to act all condescending and imply you don't know about causation and correlation; I imagine you do.
Do you not think it's possible that the profession draws a certain kind of person or people with certain predispositions?
I mean, I'm just talking about profiling.  It's not PC (ETA: profiling , that is) but it is what it is.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 2:05:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:
I know a person who just destroyed his career in LE.

He started out as a volunteer in the local county sheriff reserve.  He got on full time with the same county in the jail.  He worked himself up to a training officer in corrections at the jail.  He paid for the local police academy himself and completed it with flying colors.  He just got on this spring with a local PD.  A really great place to work and has loved it since he started.

He's a dumb 20 something though...

He got a DUI a few weeks ago.  Got fired.  Game over.



I know a few guys with DUI's.  Some got them before they came on and some after.  People make mistakes.  In my opinion one DUI is forgivable for a LEO.  A repeat offender is a different story.    
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 4:33:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:

I'm not. Maybe there's a reason I wasn't drawn to it.


ETA: Oh, wait…I bet you’re trying to insinuate that unless someone is a cop they can’t comment on, understand or theorize about cops. That’s silly.




I'm not claiming that you were bashing, but at least share your current career choice with us so that we might be able to make broad unsubstantiated claims about what you do.



You were the one that said people in LE are prone to certain things, not me.
I was just suggesting a possible explanation for the observation you made.  I'm not going to act all condescending and imply you don't know about causation and correlation; I imagine you do.
Do you not think it's possible that the profession draws a certain kind of person or people with certain predispositions?
I mean, I'm just talking about profiling.  It's not PC (ETA: profiling , that is) but it is what it is.



That's fine but since you have posted your comments on a LE forum you know what we do, so please share with us what you do.  After all it is important for us to know where you draw your profiling skills from.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 4:59:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

I'm not.  Maybe there's a reason I wasn't drawn to it.


ETA:  Oh, wait…I bet you’re trying to insinuate that unless someone is a cop they can’t comment on, understand or theorize about cops.  That’s silly.



I think he's pointing out that this isn't the GD.  The LE forum is not for LE bashing IIRC.



Was that bashing?



Um...Sure as fuck sounded that way to me. Please stay in GD. Thank you.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 5:11:01 PM EDT
Do you think it could have anything to do with dealing with this kind of stuff year after year?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=76&t=397815
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 6:23:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:
I know a person who just destroyed his career in LE.




Stick around. You'll know a lot more before you retire.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:35:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2005 8:14:52 PM EDT by GackMan]

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
You were the one that said people in LE are prone to certain things, not me.
I was just suggesting a possible explanation for the observation you made.  I'm not going to act all condescending and imply you don't know about causation and correlation; I imagine you do.
Do you not think it's possible that the profession draws a certain kind of person or people with certain predispositions?
I mean, I'm just talking about profiling.  It's not PC (ETA: profiling , that is) but it is what it is.



It looks to me, that someone merely posted the statistics about law enforcement.  You are the one who insinuated that the people in this career field were pre-disposed to those behaviors.  Of course, you're wrong; not taking into account the stress a cop is faced with over 20+years. Your statement is causation fallacy - post hoc ergo propter hoc.

You chose to ignore the other causes that have been researched extensively such as exposure to psychological trauma on a daily basis, shift work, etc.  Your opinion makes it sound like this 'pre-disposition' would lead to cops to suffer spontaneously from PTSD had they become plumbers, accountants, or software engineers instead.

At any rate, you projected your opinion and prejudice about a group of people based solely on their career into your statement quite nicely.  Actually quite telling about you.

More importantly (and why you will always be thought of as an asshole when you open your cock-holster from now on),  those numbers aren't statistics to many people in this forum.  Don't be surprised that you manage to piss some people off when you basically come in here and post that friends and co-workers who crawled into a bottle or are their gun are pre-disposed to that behavior and you dismiss them as defective with a wave of your hand.   Get it?   So go troll the GD, or go surf whatever your version of this section of the board would be...  I don't see a "loud mouth jag-off forum" or whatever but as long as it isn't here.
Link Posted: 10/10/2005 7:41:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sukebe:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
I know a person who just destroyed his career in LE.




Stick around. You'll know a lot more before you retire.



I'm just a wanna be part timer.    

I've met so many great people I can't even count them all.  A few oddballs, but for the most part they have been an absolutely great bunch of people.

This fella that lost his job could have been a great officer.  I guess I blame it on being young and stupid.  Been there, done that.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 3:56:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawker:
Dont ya just love cops that think they r above the law



I guess he found out that he wasn't...
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:14:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 7:20:48 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By GackMan:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
You were the one that said people in LE are prone to certain things, not me.
I was just suggesting a possible explanation for the observation you made.  I'm not going to act all condescending and imply you don't know about causation and correlation; I imagine you do.
Do you not think it's possible that the profession draws a certain kind of person or people with certain predispositions?
I mean, I'm just talking about profiling.  It's not PC (ETA: profiling , that is) but it is what it is.



It looks to me, that someone merely posted the statistics about law enforcement.  You are the one who insinuated that the people in this career field were pre-disposed to those behaviors.  Of course, you're wrong; not taking into account the stress a cop is faced with over 20+years. Your statement is causation fallacy - post hoc ergo propter hoc.

You chose to ignore the other causes that have been researched extensively such as exposure to psychological trauma on a daily basis, shift work, etc.  Your opinion makes it sound like this 'pre-disposition' would lead to cops to suffer spontaneously from PTSD had they become plumbers, accountants, or software engineers instead.

At any rate, you projected your opinion and prejudice about a group of people based solely on their career into your statement quite nicely.  Actually quite telling about you.

More importantly (and why you will always be thought of as an asshole when you open your cock-holster from now on),  those numbers aren't statistics to many people in this forum.  Don't be surprised that you manage to piss some people off when you basically come in here and post that friends and co-workers who crawled into a bottle or are their gun are pre-disposed to that behavior and you dismiss them as defective with a wave of your hand.   Get it?   So go troll the GD, or go surf whatever your version of this section of the board would be...  I don't see a "loud mouth jag-off forum" or whatever but as long as it isn't here.



Well, I asked if it was causation or correlation.  I didn't assert that it was either.  I raised the possibility (I said maybe) that cops were predisposed to certain things.

Here is what I posted:

Causation or correlation?

Maybe the profession attracts people predisposed to those things. And other things.



So I don't know how that makes *me* a loud mouthed jag off.  Maybe reread your post though (speaking of profiling and LMJO's).

Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:20:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 7:21:46 AM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:

I'm not. Maybe there's a reason I wasn't drawn to it.


ETA: Oh, wait…I bet you’re trying to insinuate that unless someone is a cop they can’t comment on, understand or theorize about cops. That’s silly.




I'm not claiming that you were bashing, but at least share your current career choice with us so that we might be able to make broad unsubstantiated claims about what you do.



You were the one that said people in LE are prone to certain things, not me.
I was just suggesting a possible explanation for the observation you made.  I'm not going to act all condescending and imply you don't know about causation and correlation; I imagine you do.
Do you not think it's possible that the profession draws a certain kind of person or people with certain predispositions?
I mean, I'm just talking about profiling.  It's not PC (ETA: profiling , that is) but it is what it is.



That's fine but since you have posted your comments on a LE forum you know what we do, so please share with us what you do.  After all it is important for us to know where you draw your profiling skills from.


I'm not saying I'm a professional profiler TxLawDog.  I'm just saying there is something going on and I asked if it was causation or correlation.  You don't need to be a  professional profiler to see that I don't think.  You certainly don't have to be a professional profiler to raise the question.

If it matters (I can only imagine someone here will try to use it for insults or ridicule) I run a Geospatial Dept. at an engineering firm.  I work with GIS, computer mapping, satellite data and stuff like that.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:53:42 AM EDT
He needed to go. I don't believe in second chances for situations such as this.  Unfortunately, no matter how strict the hiring requirements, psych testing, and  background checks,  "Dumbass"  disease will make it all moot.  
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 1:33:11 PM EDT
Interesting exchange/dialogue between IAMLEGEND, TxLawDog and GackMan.

And timely.  I am in the "post-publication" period and trying to find something else to write about.  One of the things I am considering is an analysis of what "types" of people (e.g. MBTI, etc) are drawn to my profession in general (not LE), as well as all the subspecialty areas.

Not really to try to make any sweeping generalizations (though they're often made and often deserved, IMHO) about my profession as a whole, but more to see where the data takes me, purely out of interest.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 2:38:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 2:54:45 PM EDT by GackMan]

Originally Posted By wise_jake:
Interesting exchange/dialogue between IAMLEGEND, TxLawDog and GackMan.

And timely.  I am in the "post-publication" period and trying to find something else to write about.  One of the things I am considering is an analysis of what "types" of people (e.g. MBTI, etc) are drawn to my profession in general (not LE), as well as all the subspecialty areas.

Not really to try to make any sweeping generalizations (though they're often made and often deserved, IMHO) about my profession as a whole, but more to see where the data takes me, purely out of interest.




If you are looking for something to write about, why is it one of the only professions that requires psychological testing and profiling prior to hiring.  If these people are pre-disposed, what does the testing weeding out?

I'll give you a copy of my last MMPI,  you tell me.  
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 2:52:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 2:53:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Well, I asked if it was causation or correlation.  I didn't assert that it was either.  I raised the possibility (I said maybe) that cops were predisposed to certain things.

Here is what I posted:

Causation or correlation?

Maybe the profession attracts people predisposed to those things. And other things.



So I don't know how that makes *me* a loud mouthed jag off.  Maybe reread your post though (speaking of profiling and LMJO's).




Don't worry, I know what you meant.   No need to back peddle and try to apologize.  I know what you think of my friends and co-workers who have killed themselves.

If you care so much about what people think, perhaps you should think about your choice of diction before you type.  If you're question was truly an innocent query then it wouldn't have been a statement crafted to take the position of supporting pre-disposition to the listed behaviors, get where I am coming from?  

You would have been received differently had you said, "Causation or correlation?
Maybe the profession impacts people and causes those things."   See.  same question, different following statement.  Prejudiced in the opposite direction.

but you didn't say it like that.  you even added in the shitty little "among other things." barb off the end of you statement.

What interest do you have in this anyway?  Just out of curiosity.  Would you walk up to a group of cops talking about someone getting a DUII and trowing his career away like an idiot and interject yourself into the conversation with nothing to add but a shitty attitude?
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 3:13:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 3:20:47 PM EDT by IAMLEGEND]

Originally Posted By GackMan:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Well, I asked if it was causation or correlation.  I didn't assert that it was either.  I raised the possibility (I said maybe) that cops were predisposed to certain things.

Here is what I posted:

Causation or correlation?

Maybe the profession attracts people predisposed to those things. And other things.



So I don't know how that makes *me* a loud mouthed jag off.  Maybe reread your post though (speaking of profiling and LMJO's).




Don't worry, I know what you meant.   No need to back peddle and try to apologize.  I know what you think of my friends and co-workers who have killed themselves.

If you care so much about what people think, perhaps you should think about your choice of diction before you type.  If you're question was truly an innocent query then it wouldn't have been a statement crafted to take the position of supporting pre-disposition to the listed behaviors, get where I am coming from?  

You would have been received differently had you said, "Causation or correlation?
Maybe the profession impacts people and causes those things."   See.  same question, different following statement.  Prejudiced in the opposite direction.

but you didn't say it like that.  you even added in the shitty little "among other things." barb off the end of you statement.

What interest do you have in this anyway?  Just out of curiosity.  Would you walk up to a group of cops talking about someone getting a DUII and trowing his career away like an idiot and interject yourself into the conversation with nothing to add but a shitty attitude?



You're certainly going on at length to do just about anything but address whether or not LE jobs tend to draw people with certain predispositions.
You're slinging so much shit it makes me wonder if I was more right than I thought.  Or maybe it just applies strongly to you.

You know, my wife (doctor) works shifts and in her previous day-to-day work (she's off the floor now) she dealt with "an awful lot exposure to psychological trauma on a daily basis, shift work, etc." and she doesn't (and her peers don’t) exhibit those issues identified early in the thread so that weak smokescreen you threw up doesn't cut it.

But I can see you're probably not prepared to even consider the point I raised as possible, never mind have an adult discussion about it, so this will probably be a dead-end conversation.  Hopefully TxLawDog gets back into it...at least it seemed possible to talk about it with him.


ETA: Is there seriously any question that it draws certain types of people?
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 3:36:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By GackMan:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Well, I asked if it was causation or correlation.  I didn't assert that it was either.  I raised the possibility (I said maybe) that cops were predisposed to certain things.

Here is what I posted:

Causation or correlation?

Maybe the profession attracts people predisposed to those things. And other things.



So I don't know how that makes *me* a loud mouthed jag off.  Maybe reread your post though (speaking of profiling and LMJO's).




Don't worry, I know what you meant.   No need to back peddle and try to apologize.  I know what you think of my friends and co-workers who have killed themselves.

If you care so much about what people think, perhaps you should think about your choice of diction before you type.  If you're question was truly an innocent query then it wouldn't have been a statement crafted to take the position of supporting pre-disposition to the listed behaviors, get where I am coming from?  

You would have been received differently had you said, "Causation or correlation?
Maybe the profession impacts people and causes those things."   See.  same question, different following statement.  Prejudiced in the opposite direction.

but you didn't say it like that.  you even added in the shitty little "among other things." barb off the end of you statement.

What interest do you have in this anyway?  Just out of curiosity.  Would you walk up to a group of cops talking about someone getting a DUII and trowing his career away like an idiot and interject yourself into the conversation with nothing to add but a shitty attitude?



You're certainly going on at length to do just about anything but address whether or not LE jobs tend to draw people with certain predispositions.
You're slinging so much shit it makes me wonder if I was more right than I thought.  Or maybe it just applies strongly to you.

You know, my wife (doctor) works shifts and in her previous day-to-day work (she's off the floor now) she dealt with "an awful lot exposure to psychological trauma on a daily basis, shift work, etc." and she doesn't (and her peers don’t) exhibit those issues identified early in the thread so that weak smokescreen you threw up doesn't cut it.

But I can see you're probably not prepared to even consider the point I raised as possible, never mind have an adult discussion about it, so this will probably be a dead-end conversation.  Hopefully TxLawDog gets back into it...at least it seemed possible to talk about it with him.


ETA: Is there seriously any question that it draws certain types of people?



Please don't shit in my thread.  Start your own.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 3:38:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By GackMan:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Well, I asked if it was causation or correlation.  I didn't assert that it was either.  I raised the possibility (I said maybe) that cops were predisposed to certain things.

Here is what I posted:

Causation or correlation?

Maybe the profession attracts people predisposed to those things. And other things.



So I don't know how that makes *me* a loud mouthed jag off.  Maybe reread your post though (speaking of profiling and LMJO's).




Don't worry, I know what you meant.   No need to back peddle and try to apologize.  I know what you think of my friends and co-workers who have killed themselves.

If you care so much about what people think, perhaps you should think about your choice of diction before you type.  If you're question was truly an innocent query then it wouldn't have been a statement crafted to take the position of supporting pre-disposition to the listed behaviors, get where I am coming from?  

You would have been received differently had you said, "Causation or correlation?
Maybe the profession impacts people and causes those things."   See.  same question, different following statement.  Prejudiced in the opposite direction.

but you didn't say it like that.  you even added in the shitty little "among other things." barb off the end of you statement.

What interest do you have in this anyway?  Just out of curiosity.  Would you walk up to a group of cops talking about someone getting a DUII and trowing his career away like an idiot and interject yourself into the conversation with nothing to add but a shitty attitude?



You're certainly going on at length to do just about anything but address whether or not LE jobs tend to draw people with certain predispositions.
You're slinging so much shit it makes me wonder if I was more right than I thought.  Or maybe it just applies strongly to you.

You know, my wife (doctor) works shifts and in her previous day-to-day work (she's off the floor now) she dealt with "an awful lot exposure to psychological trauma on a daily basis, shift work, etc." and she doesn't (and her peers don’t) exhibit those issues identified early in the thread so that weak smokescreen you threw up doesn't cut it.

But I can see you're probably not prepared to even consider the point I raised as possible, never mind have an adult discussion about it, so this will probably be a dead-end conversation.  Hopefully TxLawDog gets back into it...at least it seemed possible to talk about it with him.


ETA: Is there seriously any question that it draws certain types of people?



Please don't shit in my thread.  Start your own.

\

OK, sorry DigDug.

Sorry Gackman and the rest of you.  This went too far I guess.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 3:58:29 PM EDT
Okay IAMLegend, your initial 'pitch' was to suggest that there is a possible predisposition of self destructivness to LE work based upon divorce rate, alcoholism rate and suicide rate.  All of those are DIRECT symptoms of high stress rates over a prolonged period of time.  Did you think that perhaps those things may be causational in nature and not a predisposition?  If there was a jump in the suicide rate of GIS mapmakers, then could we make a blanket statement that it was because they were tormented as teens for their intellect or their tendency to spend too much time on the computer? No.   The point is that with all of the psychological testing and background investigations that are done at reputable departments (including both written and verbal psych tests) your suggestion does not hold water.  The reason that we 'bristle up' when someone with no experience jumps in to suggest  that there is an implied inherent psychological defect in Officers that the person has neither researched or data to support is obvious.  There is not another profession, anywhere, that is so rigidly judged by those on the inside or outside.  How many people do you know in your profession that have broken the law (DUI, etc) or self destructed that have made the news...ever.  Everyone is quick to cast the stone of Officers being 'above the law' when in actuality it is the opposite.  


Oh yeah, no dogs were injured during this post.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 4:32:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 4:38:16 PM EDT by GackMan]

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
You're certainly going on at length to do just about anything but address whether or not LE jobs tend to draw people with certain predispositions.
You're slinging so much shit it makes me wonder if I was more right than I thought.  Or maybe it just applies strongly to you.

You know, my wife (doctor) works shifts and in her previous day-to-day work (she's off the floor now) she dealt with "an awful lot exposure to psychological trauma on a daily basis, shift work, etc." and she doesn't (and her peers don’t) exhibit those issues identified early in the thread so that weak smokescreen you threw up doesn't cut it.

But I can see you're probably not prepared to even consider the point I raised as possible, never mind have an adult discussion about it, so this will probably be a dead-end conversation.  Hopefully TxLawDog gets back into it...at least it seemed possible to talk about it with him.


ETA: Is there seriously any question that it draws certain types of people?



Look man - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  I'm sure you are a nice guy.  I just don't see you as an interested party in this discussion.  To me it looks like you just came in here, dropped your turd in the punch bowl and then got defensive when people didn't appreciate your opinion.

You may be onto something with the career attracting certain types of people.  But that is different that them actually getting hired.   Look into research studies correlating personality tracking versus later behavior.  Police departments conduct psychological screening for a reason.

Just hit scholar.google.com  and look for  “Pre-employment psychological screening for police officers”  or similar titles.

Anyway here is how I see it, I'll post this and let you have the last word if you wish, then we can stop crapping on dig-dug's thread.  Or IM me or start a new thread or whatever.

1) To you, this is just an interesting subject that you'd be happy to discuss over coffee after dinner.  To me, and many others in here, it is deeply personal.  You do get that, don't you?   What kind of reaction would you expect?    If it wasn't your intention to make offensive comments, well - you did.

2) To me, there is nothing to debate. I've researched this extensively and I made an informed decision years ago.  This is nurture over nature.  I'm sorry if you misinterpret my unwillingness to lend credence to your prejudicial stance by discuss it with you as "going on at length to do just about anything but address whether or not LE jobs tend to draw people with certain predispositions."

It seems like you had your mind made up and you've made your opinion clear.  Based on your statements, I'm not interested in having a discussion with you.  Your opinion and grasp of the subject seems to be fairly elementary. I don’t know, is it from your perception formed through the media, movies, or what.

I would be happy to provide a reading list for you to research the subject on your own time.   Just tell me where to send it.  

It is a fascinating subject and reams of research have been done on it.   Any stress in police work can be found in another occupation.  But in the case of cops, all the different stress happens in the same job at the same time and that is where the difference is.  

For example, your wife has some of the same stressors (as you pointed out) but are her patients trying to kill her?  are her patients frequently already dead, or do the dead ones often go somewhere else where she isn't expected to save them?  does she get rewarded for taking life as well as saving it?  does she experience the stress alone or are her co-workers experiencing it with her versus shortly thereafter?

Anyway, take care of yourself.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:47:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GackMan:

Originally Posted By wise_jake:
Interesting exchange/dialogue between IAMLEGEND, TxLawDog and GackMan.

And timely.  I am in the "post-publication" period and trying to find something else to write about.  One of the things I am considering is an analysis of what "types" of people (e.g. MBTI, etc) are drawn to my profession in general (not LE), as well as all the subspecialty areas.

Not really to try to make any sweeping generalizations (though they're often made and often deserved, IMHO) about my profession as a whole, but more to see where the data takes me, purely out of interest.




If you are looking for something to write about, why is it one of the only professions that requires psychological testing and profiling prior to hiring.  If these people are pre-disposed, what does the testing weeding out?

I'll give you a copy of my last MMPI,  you tell me.  



In following your line of inquiry, I'll play/answer:

It should weed them *all* out!

Link Posted: 10/11/2005 10:41:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By GackMan:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Well, I asked if it was causation or correlation.  I didn't assert that it was either.  I raised the possibility (I said maybe) that cops were predisposed to certain things.

Here is what I posted:

Causation or correlation?

Maybe the profession attracts people predisposed to those things. And other things.



So I don't know how that makes *me* a loud mouthed jag off.  Maybe reread your post though (speaking of profiling and LMJO's).




Don't worry, I know what you meant.   No need to back peddle and try to apologize.  I know what you think of my friends and co-workers who have killed themselves.

If you care so much about what people think, perhaps you should think about your choice of diction before you type.  If you're question was truly an innocent query then it wouldn't have been a statement crafted to take the position of supporting pre-disposition to the listed behaviors, get where I am coming from?  

You would have been received differently had you said, "Causation or correlation?
Maybe the profession impacts people and causes those things."   See.  same question, different following statement.  Prejudiced in the opposite direction.

but you didn't say it like that.  you even added in the shitty little "among other things." barb off the end of you statement.

What interest do you have in this anyway?  Just out of curiosity.  Would you walk up to a group of cops talking about someone getting a DUII and trowing his career away like an idiot and interject yourself into the conversation with nothing to add but a shitty attitude?



You're certainly going on at length to do just about anything but address whether or not LE jobs tend to draw people with certain predispositions.
You're slinging so much shit it makes me wonder if I was more right than I thought.  Or maybe it just applies strongly to you.

You know, my wife (doctor) works shifts and in her previous day-to-day work (she's off the floor now) she dealt with "an awful lot exposure to psychological trauma on a daily basis, shift work, etc." and she doesn't (and her peers don’t) exhibit those issues identified early in the thread so that weak smokescreen you threw up doesn't cut it.

But I can see you're probably not prepared to even consider the point I raised as possible, never mind have an adult discussion about it, so this will probably be a dead-end conversation.  Hopefully TxLawDog gets back into it...at least it seemed possible to talk about it with him.


ETA: Is there seriously any question that it draws certain types of people?

The things cops see are a bit different than the things doctors see. The perceptions are also likely to be different.

Law enforcement does draw certain types of people, as do all jobs.

Frankly, you comparison of your wife the doctor doesn't hold much water. Doctors see their share of tragedy, but it is often somewhat expected. Additionally, doctors don't usually enter their profession with any illusions about what they will deal with. There are plenty of kids who join police forces with the plan of being the guy in the white hat and helping to save the world.

Police officers however, see a much more traumatic side of things. It's the police officers who respond to crimes, talk indepth to the victims, and deal with the offenders.

Seeing the worst that the world has to offer every day is rough for anyone, no matter what kind of person they are. Clearly you lack an understanding of what a career in law enforcement does to you. Maybe this can clear things up.

A successful career in law enforcement will often put you in a number of horrific situations. You may be shot, or you may have to shoot someone. You may lose friends. You will see the victims of every crime imaginable, and some that you never even imagined. You'll see children robbed of their innocence, and sometimes you'll see the people who did it walk away scot free. You'll watch criminals be repeatedly released to continue commiting crimes against people. You'll pour hours into putting away some of the worst scum that has ever walked the earth, only to have it wasted because a liberal judge thinks that a precedent from 1840 might still be valid. For all of your trouble you'll collect a paycheck that most garbagemen would laugh at. You'll have complaints filed against you for such terrible offences as wearing sunglasses and not smiling. If you have done your job really well, you may have to relocate to protect your family from people you put away.

Simply put, cops see things all the time that give them serious doubt about whether this world is even worth living in. Ultimatly, some of them decide it's not.

Unfortunatly, it isn't as simple as saying that maybe they are predisposed to such things. Plenty of them have gone into LE with unlimited potential and been changed by it. That's what happens when you do that kind of work. It isn't doing paperwork, writing traffic tickets, and arresting drug dealers that drives guys to drink and some to commit suicide. It's something much worse. When you do something like look into the dead, emotionless eyes of a 10-year-old while she describes being repeatedly raped by her father, part of you dies. When enough of the optimism, hope, and faith in people is dead, the world becomes a colder place, and it's alot easier to crawl into a bottle or eat a bullet than it is to understand why people do what they do.

If you think you know so much about the caliber of people that do police work, why don't you put on a uniform and try it out.

Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:20:51 AM EDT
joker, [I know you weren't addressing me, but] it's exactly that/those type of description(s) that kept me out of LE work.  I may or may not have been "cut out" for it.......... who knows?

I had some ppl (family, family friends: LE, EMS, and none of the above) make certain from an early age that I had no illusions as to what that line of work *can* lead to.  I have also had an old friend cut down in the line of duty.  I can only imagine what that felt like for the ppl who not only *worked* with him, but who had a relationship based on mutual dependence/reliance with him day-in and day-out.

In the end, I just decided on a different career/life/etc.

I've been called both "cop basher" and "police apologist" before.  Sometimes both in the same day.    I just think I'm a really good (or really evil ) Devil's Advocate, but who knows what the truth of the matter really is?

One things's for sure: It's both a line of work and a way of life.  I think one thing we can (or should be able to) all agree on is that it is a *unique* line of work with a *unique* set of job- and life-related stressors.  As I had it put to me once: "Not better, not worse......... but definitely 'different'."
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