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Posted: 2/1/2006 4:50:09 PM EDT

How do you get an 11-year-old off heroin?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4661938.stm
WHO, WHAT, WHY?
The Magazine answers...

Child drug abuse is treated differently to adult addiction
A primary schoolgirl is undergoing heroin withdrawal treatment after admitting to using the drug for two months. But how do you treat a child drug abuser?

The 11-year-old girl was taken to Glasgow's Royal Hospital for Sick Children after collapsing in her primary school class last Wednesday.

It was thought the girl had fallen asleep in class but hospital staff were stunned when the child said she had been "chasing the dragon" for two months.

It's understood the girl is undergoing "cold turkey" - that is medically unaided withdrawal - because doctors are concerned she is too young to cope with the drugs normally used to treat heroin problems.

So how do you help a schoolchild withdraw from heroin?




An 11-year-old is developing very rapidly and the way the drug [methadone] would be handled by that child's body is very different to an adult
Dr Clare Gerada
Treatment for children differs markedly from that for adults, many of whom have been using - and injecting - heroin for years.

Adults may be prescribed methadone - a powerful pain reliever used as a heroin substitute - to help addicts progress to full withdrawal.

But putting an 11-year-old on methadone would be the very last resort, according to Dr Clare Gerada, Royal College of GPs spokeswoman on drugs and member of the government's Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs.

"An 11-year-old is developing very rapidly and the way the drug would be handled by that child's body is very different to an adult," she says.

Overdose risk

"Methadone is stored in the body's fat, and a child's body is constantly changing and developing. You might find that the right dose one week is not the right dose the next. This is a serious drug which can cause an overdose in its own right."

Dr Gerada also says methadone is known to rot people's teeth and disrupt menstrual cycles, something doctors would also want to avoid in a pre-pubescent girl.

This means going "cold turkey" - a phrase than conjures up horrific images of a painful and distressing withdrawal.

But Dr Gerada says depending on the level of misuse of heroin, the child's experience of withdrawal would most likely resemble "flu and last for three to four days". She would recommend using conventional pain relief.

Child drug abuse and addiction is regarded as much more complex and involves a wide range of professionals. The child's background, emotional development, family circumstances and mental health would be investigated.

"Drug abuse by children is rarely about having a drug problem, it is most probably a symptom that something - perhaps everything else - is going pear-shaped in their lives," says Dr Gerada.

The Bolton Drug Action Team (Dat) was one of the first substance misuse centres in the country to set up a specialist service for under-19s. Sandy Saunders, its Drugs Misuse Strategy Manager, agrees methadone would hardly ever be recommended for a child.

For her team, the primary objective is to establish how long and how often the child has been using heroin and then to get them off drugs entirely as quickly as possible.

Generations

"The most important thing is that all the relevant support services are offered quickly - that includes education, social services, and drugs counselling," says Ms Saunders.

She says it is vital the family is fully involved from the beginning for the child to be successfully treated.

"Young people using sometimes have parents who are using too. We are seeing second and third generation drug users coming forward for treatment," she says.

For both Dr Gerada and Ms Saunders the important question to ask is why an 11-year-old would want to smoke heroin in the first place?

"Dealers do not usually target children so young because they would not risk increased police interest. You've got to ask how and why a child of 11 is buying drugs at one of our shopping centres."

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:50:44 PM EDT
Oh, I dunno, legalizing it would be a good start! That way you could really go after heroin dealers because they might get a $50 fine or something, just like they do for selling beer or cigarettes.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:52:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 4:53:30 PM EDT by Aviator]
*SIGH* Makes me glad I am going over to help destroy the Poppy fields....


Aviator
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:00:52 PM EDT
11 y/o's have the right to put whatever they want in their bodies anyway
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:06:04 PM EDT
I not exactly what you'd call "pro drug", but I'd be willing to bet she could get heroin a lot easier than, say, whiskey.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:07:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
So how do you help a schoolchild withdraw from heroin?



Shoot her parents.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:10:59 PM EDT
airstrip 1 sure has gone to hell.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:11:08 PM EDT
Marry her?

Oh wait, that's how you get them to stop having sex.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:11:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Oh, I dunno, legalizing it would be a good start! That way you could really go after heroin dealers because they might get a $50 fine or something, just like they do for selling beer or cigarettes.



We covered this before, remember? We had bigger problems with teen drinking during alcohol prohibition than we did either before or after. The availability of illegal alcohol to children was one of the major reasons alcohol prohibition was repealed.

In more modern times, the US Government itself says that kids find it easier to get illegal drugs than legal ones.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:12:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:
I not exactly what you'd call "pro drug", but I'd be willing to bet she could get heroin a lot easier than, say, whiskey.



All the US Government's surveys of kids on that topic agree with you.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:14:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aviator:
*SIGH* Makes me glad I am going over to help destroy the Poppy fields....


Aviator



Were you aware that the Rand Corporattion has determined that, of all the methods of dealing with the problem, destroying the poppy fields is the LEAST cost-effective?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:17:26 PM EDT
No I was not, but I DO know that me going out and shooting dealers, while being much more cost effective, would land me in jail.


Aviator
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:18:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Aviator:
*SIGH* Makes me glad I am going over to help destroy the Poppy fields....


Aviator



Were you aware that the Rand Corporattion has determined that, of all the methods of dealing with the problem, destroying the poppy fields is the LEAST cost-effective?



Attacking the supply side is generally a bad idea anyways
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:19:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
So how do you help a schoolchild withdraw from heroin?



Shoot her parents.



+1
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:20:41 PM EDT
Still glad I am going over to do it. (shrug)


Aviator
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:21:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aviator:
No I was not, but I DO know that me going out and shooting dealers, while being much more cost effective, would land me in jail.


Aviator



How many do you think you would have to shoot before it made any real difference? Please compare that number with the number of people killed by the drugs themselves.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:21:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
11 y/o's have the right to put whatever they want in their bodies anyway



And they also have the Constitutional right to an abortion on demand without their parents knowledge or consent!
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:24:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

How many do you think you would have to shoot before it made any real difference? Please compare that number with the number of people killed by the drugs themselves.




Hrmmm, well, for the most part, they are not stupid, just lazy. I am thinking that about the time 5 or 6 show up dead on the street around my neighborhood, the rest will go someplace else. Hopefully, there would be like minded people there that will get my left-overs.


Aviator
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:28:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aviator:
Still glad I am going over to do it. (shrug)


Aviator



According to all the economic analysis, it won't make any difference, and we would be twenty times better off if we spent the money on treatment.

I recently met a guy who busted 240,000 pounds of cocaine in Colombia. He was speaking at a drug reform conference because the experience had convinced him that trying to eliminate the crops was a complete waste of time and money.

If you actually work on the ground and get to meet natives in the country I think you will be astounded at the level of corruption in the whole thing. That seems to convince former drug warriors as much as anything.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:31:11 PM EDT
Trust me, I am NOT the person you want trying to rehabilitate druggies. I am much better off killing the plants. Everyone would be much happier.


Aviator
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:31:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By California_Kid:
Marry her?

Oh wait, that's how you get them to stop having sex.





Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:32:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aviator:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

How many do you think you would have to shoot before it made any real difference? Please compare that number with the number of people killed by the drugs themselves.




Hrmmm, well, for the most part, they are not stupid, just lazy. I am thinking that about the time 5 or 6 show up dead on the street around my neighborhood, the rest will go someplace else. Hopefully, there would be like minded people there that will get my left-overs.


Aviator



Why would that have any better of an effect than the current effort to put 500 or 600 of them in jail for a long time?

But you didn't answer the question. Suppose everyone did follow your advice in their local area. How many people would we need to kill to solve the problem? For comparison, how many people are killed by drugs?

I take it you don't really know either answer.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:33:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Aviator:
Still glad I am going over to do it. (shrug)


Aviator



According to all the economic analysis, it won't make any difference, and we would be twenty times better off if we spent the money on treatment.

I recently met a guy who busted 240,000 pounds of cocaine in Colombia. He was speaking at a drug reform conference because the experience had convinced him that trying to eliminate the crops was a complete waste of time and money.

If you actually work on the ground and get to meet natives in the country I think you will be astounded at the level of corruption in the whole thing. That seems to convince former drug warriors as much as anything.




dude you are something else. Do you spend all day reading studies and research on Drugs. Im not saying its bad, but in every drug thread you are always in spouting facts. Some people dont buy it, but hey you cant go to the brady bunch and change their minds with statistics either.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:34:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aviator:
Trust me, I am NOT the person you want trying to rehabilitate druggies. I am much better off killing the plants. Everyone would be much happier.


Aviator



I didn't say you were that kind of person. I am not either. But we would all be better off to pay you to stay home and watch TV and spend the money on your plane fare on some service that is good at rehab. That would produce the happiest possible results.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:37:00 PM EDT
Because, right now they are not afraid of Jail, they are however afraid of death. After about 1 month of dead drug dealers turning up in neighborhoods all over the US, they would go do something else, or not. one way or another, the problem would solve itself.

As for numbers, No idea, but I do know that as you get rid of more dealers,and fewer people willing to step in to make the "easy money" you would have exponitially lower overdoses.

You wanna sell pot, fine, keep that shit away from me and my friends, but if you are selling crack, meth or heroin, I got no problem with someone putting the three Ss to your ass.

Aviator
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:39:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
I didn't say you were that kind of person. I am not either. But we would all be better off to pay you to stay home and watch TV and spend the money on your plane fare on some service that is good at rehab. That would produce the happiest possible results.



Odds are real good I'll just be taking up a seat on a .gov flight that will be headed that way anyway. Besides, watching TV is booring.


Aviator
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:41:23 PM EDT
sounds like darwinism in action to me.

that pic is decieving, btw. the kid was smoking it, not injecting it. a pic of a syringe does add some nice shock value however.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:43:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Oh, I dunno, legalizing it would be a good start! That way you could really go after heroin dealers because they might get a $50 fine or something, just like they do for selling beer or cigarettes.



I see banning it has really worked out great, hasn't it?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:45:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USGI_45:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Aviator:
Still glad I am going over to do it. (shrug)


Aviator



According to all the economic analysis, it won't make any difference, and we would be twenty times better off if we spent the money on treatment.

I recently met a guy who busted 240,000 pounds of cocaine in Colombia. He was speaking at a drug reform conference because the experience had convinced him that trying to eliminate the crops was a complete waste of time and money.

If you actually work on the ground and get to meet natives in the country I think you will be astounded at the level of corruption in the whole thing. That seems to convince former drug warriors as much as anything.




dude you are something else. Do you spend all day reading studies and research on Drugs. Im not saying its bad, but in every drug thread you are always in spouting facts. Some people dont buy it, but hey you cant go to the brady bunch and change their minds with statistics either.



I know this has been said before. I have a major online library on the subject. I have published more copies of the major research than anyone else. And you would really be surprised at the minds I have changed.

There are always some people of the "Brady Bunch" mentality on just about any issue. As near as I can tell, they amount to something around fifteen to thirty percent of the general public. That is, about 15 percent to thirty percent of the Brady people will remain completely immune to facts or any kind of sensible argument. They just know guns are evil, God told them so, and that is the end of it.

There are a similar number of people on the hardcore prohibitionist end. Some of them will tell you flat out that they will gladly pay more in taxes to punish drug users, even if they saw conclusive evidence that punishment caused more problems than it solved and that it was just a waste of tax money. They just like to punish people. Also, lots of them tend to have what amounts to a mild obsessive-compulsive disorder where they really can't stand it if something is out of order -- like some perceived violation of the social rules.

But, having said that, the tide is clearly shifting. Polls on medical marijuana show about 80 percent of the public in favor of it, and polls on legalization of other drugs show a generally rising trend. The environment is quite different than it was about 15 years ago when I started this. I don't have any real doubt that, over time, we are convincing people to support reform, and a large part of that has been done through the internet.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:46:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KA3B:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
So how do you help a schoolchild withdraw from heroin?



Shoot her parents.


+1.
Prevent her from even OBTAINING heroin in the first place.

Yeah KA3B, I'd like to know where the HELL are the damn PARENTS?!
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:46:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aviator:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:
I didn't say you were that kind of person. I am not either. But we would all be better off to pay you to stay home and watch TV and spend the money on your plane fare on some service that is good at rehab. That would produce the happiest possible results.



Odds are real good I'll just be taking up a seat on a .gov flight that will be headed that way anyway. Besides, watching TV is booring.


Aviator



OK, then go to the range and have some fun. We would still be better off.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:48:15 PM EDT
Kill her parents for starters. They are obvious worthless if their kid is getting hooked on heroin at ELEVEN!!!

Man... this shit disturbs me to no end.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:49:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aviator:
Because, right now they are not afraid of Jail, they are however afraid of death. After about 1 month of dead drug dealers turning up in neighborhoods all over the US, they would go do something else, or not. one way or another, the problem would solve itself.

As for numbers, No idea, but I do know that as you get rid of more dealers,and fewer people willing to step in to make the "easy money" you would have exponitially lower overdoses.

You wanna sell pot, fine, keep that shit away from me and my friends, but if you are selling crack, meth or heroin, I got no problem with someone putting the three Ss to your ass.

Aviator



Well, the point is that if you don't know how many people are being killed by the problem right now, and you don't how many people you would have to kill to solve the problem, then you don't know which one would end up killing more people.

Let me give you the summary of the numbers: You would kill far more people than the problem does in short order, and you still wouldn't make a dent.

So how do you feel about alcohol? Alcohol wins all the prizes for causing problems in society. Illegal drugs are small change by comparison. Would you start shooting liquor store clerks to solve that problem?

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:50:01 PM EDT
Parents are stupid, and not paying attention to what the kid is doing. The dealer is just plain evil, giving that shit to an 11 year old.

Aviator
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:51:36 PM EDT
My understanding is that once you switch from heroine to methadone you have to stay on methadone pretty much forever or face withdraw symptoms. I understand it as a replacement for heroine as opposed to a cure.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:52:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aviator:
Parents are stupid, and not paying attention to what the kid is doing. The dealer is just plain evil, giving that shit to an 11 year old.

Aviator



If I had to bet just from the information given, I would bet that:

1) the parents are addicts, too and;

2) drugs are so common in her area that she probably got them from her school chums. She or some of her friends may be working as couriers for drug dealers.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:53:31 PM EDT
they should give ibogaine a try.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:54:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:


Well, the point is that if you don't know how many people are being killed by the problem right now, and you don't how many people you would have to kill to solve the problem, then you don't know which one would end up killing more people.

Let me give you the summary of the numbers: You would kill far more people than the problem does in short order, and you still wouldn't make a dent.

So how do you feel about alcohol? Alcohol wins all the prizes for causing problems in society. Illegal drugs are small change by comparison. Would you start shooting liquor store clerks to solve that problem?




You are taking this to a whole new tread. You initally asked how to keep 11 year olds off heroin, or something similar.

Do your studies show how much money is spent by friends, and family of junkies on trying to get them straight, or out of trouble, or get them medical care, or to pay their bills they won;t or can;t pay? Or how much is spent by taxpayers for the same thing, or housing and feeding convicted pushers? I bet those numbers add up to a whole lot, even if, as I suspect, most friends and familes would never give you the real cost to themselves.


Aviator
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:54:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ardenner:
My understanding is that once you switch from heroine to methadone you have to stay on methadone pretty much forever or face withdraw symptoms. I understand it as a replacement for heroine as opposed to a cure.



That is correct. It simply alleviates the withdrawal symptoms. Except for the difference in the euphoria, it is quite similar to heroin in its effects. But it brings up an interesting question:

If methadone is quite similar to heroin, why are addicts allowed to take it but not heroin?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:58:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 6:00:24 PM EDT by wolfman97]

Originally Posted By Aviator:

Originally Posted By wolfman97:


Well, the point is that if you don't know how many people are being killed by the problem right now, and you don't how many people you would have to kill to solve the problem, then you don't know which one would end up killing more people.

Let me give you the summary of the numbers: You would kill far more people than the problem does in short order, and you still wouldn't make a dent.

So how do you feel about alcohol? Alcohol wins all the prizes for causing problems in society. Illegal drugs are small change by comparison. Would you start shooting liquor store clerks to solve that problem?




You are taking this to a whole new tread. You initally asked how to keep 11 year olds off heroin, or something similar.

Do your studies show how much money is spent by friends, and family of junkies on trying to get them straight, or out of trouble, or get them medical care, or to pay their bills they won;t or can;t pay? Or how much is spent by taxpayers for the same thing, or housing and feeding convicted pushers? I bet those numbers add up to a whole lot, even if, as I suspect, most friends and familes would never give you the real cost to themselves.


Aviator



Yep. There is quite a bit of financial analysis on that. Bottom line -- the current policy is about the most expensive and least productive thing we could do to address the problem. Of all the possible solutions, this is the worst. One fairly recent US Goverment analysis showed that legalization of drugs would produce a net savings of at least 37 billion dollars per year.

There have been any number of studies on the issue but they all reached the same basic economic conclusions. That is why 500 economists -- including a number of Nobel laureates -- have recently signed statements saying that the drug war should be seriously re-examined. Among economists, I think the consensus of opinion is pretty well overwhelming against the drug war at this point.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:00:55 PM EDT

If methadone is quite similar to heroin, why are addicts allowed to take it but not heroin?


All this does is trade one pusher for another (govt) pusher.

If by now people don't know that drugs are dangerous and will seriously screw you and and kill you, then they are too stupid to be in the gene pool.

I am all for poisoning random batches of the drugs, so more people will die while using them. They should put pictures of dead drug users on TV, showing before and after pictures.

Sorry, I just have a lot of trouble being sympathetic.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:01:42 PM EDT
Thats great, you keep up the fight to get the shit made legal, and I'll keep working the problem from the other end.

Aviator
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:01:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
If methadone is quite similar to heroin, why are addicts allowed to take it but not heroin?


All this does is trade one pusher for another (govt) pusher.

If by now people don't know that drugs are dangerous and will seriously screw you and and kill you, then they are too stupid to be in the gene pool.

I am all for poisoning random batches of the drugs, so more people will die while using them. They should put pictures of dead drug users on TV, showing before and after pictures.

Sorry, I just have a lot of trouble being sympathetic.




So would you do the same with random cases of beer? Why not?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:05:03 PM EDT
Two different things entirely.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:09:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Aviator:
Thats great, you keep up the fight to get the shit made legal, and I'll keep working the problem from the other end.

Aviator



Well, remember that when you get tired of the corruption, and double-dealing, and foreign government officials looking at you with a straight face and telling you they don't know how 500 pounds of opium got into their garage, and you actually want to read something to understand what is happening -- - check out my library.

Start with the Short History of the Marijuana Laws

Then read Consumers Union Report on Licit and Illicit Drugs

Then read Rufus King's history of the drug laws The Drug Hang-Up

Those items will give you a good idea of what you would learn if you read all of the other major research on the topic. You will come back from your tour knowing that you have been on a fool's errand. Those items will tell you why.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:09:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Two different things entirely.



How is that?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:10:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By postpostban:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Oh, I dunno, legalizing it would be a good start! That way you could really go after heroin dealers because they might get a $50 fine or something, just like they do for selling beer or cigarettes.



I see banning it has really worked out great, hasn't it?



Yeah, so has the banning murder, since murder's been illegal, no one's ever been murdered. Shucks. Same for speeding, shoplifting dealing heroin, battering spouses, etc. Dang all thm laws.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:11:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
I am all for poisoning random batches of the drugs, so more people will die while using them. They should put pictures of dead drug users on TV, showing before and after pictures.

Sorry, I just have a lot of trouble being sympathetic.






I am all for poisoning random batches of McDonald's hamburgers, so more people will die while eating them. They should put pictures of dead obese people on TV, showing before and after pictures.

Sorry, I just have a lot of trouble being sympathetic.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:17:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:

Originally Posted By postpostban:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
Oh, I dunno, legalizing it would be a good start! That way you could really go after heroin dealers because they might get a $50 fine or something, just like they do for selling beer or cigarettes.



I see banning it has really worked out great, hasn't it?



Yeah, so has the banning murder, since murder's been illegal, no one's ever been murdered. Shucks. Same for speeding, shoplifting dealing heroin, battering spouses, etc. Dang all thm laws.



We covered this before, too. Please check your notes. I am sure you will find it.

Nobody (except perhaps silly prohibitionists) has ever suggested any change in any law that would allow anyone to harm anyone else.

If you want to check the effects of these laws on the drug problem, I suggest you read the first several chapters of the Consumers Union Report. They detail what happened immediately before and after the laws were passed.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:18:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 6:20:34 PM EDT by The_Macallan]

How do you get an 11-year-old off heroin?

Why in the world would you want to do that????

Heroin is no worse than cigarettes and a lot less dangerous than alcohol!

What's the big deal?

Sheesh!



BTW, did you know it used to be perfectly LEGAL to give kids and even infants morphine and heroin in this country once!?

Was that back when slavery was legal too?
No, it was after... and shaddup!




Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:20:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Heroin is no worse than cigarettes and a lot less dangerous than alcohol!



actually that's not that far from the truth, as long as you're talking about medical-grade heroin that's not cut with god knows what. it is still used as a pain reliever in extreme cases.
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