Posted: 2/14/2009 11:47:19 AM EDT
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Hi all...kind of a long story but here goes.
This morning, I lost power to my cordless phone and modem turned off in the study. My wife told me the light flickered yesterday. I then hear a buzzing sound in the basement. I turn off the beaker to the study so whatever problem is isolated there. Then I notice the light on half of the basement does not have full power and is pretty dim, and I still hear a buzzing. I notice that the flourescent (sp?) over my work area is not turning on, and if it did, it was dim. I turned off the breaker that has the light and sockets over there, plus the other section of the house on that breaker. I still hear buzzing/humming and turn off a third breaker that is other outlets in the basement, and that stops the humming. I tried the breaker for the study again, but still flickering lights or no lighting. Does this sound like a short somewhere? Can a short in one cause problems in other circuits? The breaker for the study and the work bench area are next to each other in the box. The house was built in 1966 and has conduit wiring, not knob and tube. I am going to hire an electrician (has done work for me before) to fix because this is above my knowledge. But I am hoping to get an idea of the problems and then see how much $$ if will cost. Thanks! |
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I agree with "T" above. If the sound you're hearing isn't near/at the panel, the likelihood of a loose neutral connection went down a bit. Possible, but it does sound like a short. For the electrician's sake ... talk him through exactly what happened and which breakers. (You probably knew that, but you'd be surprised what info homeowners "sit on" sometimes) Good luck.
BTW ... say a little thanks that you've got conduit. Stay safe |
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Thanks for the responses...I am kind of anal about that stuff and have left the breakers off since. The buzzing/humming sound was not in the area of the box, it was across the basement, in an area of some conduit that was turned off by one of the breakers.
I did right down what steps and what I saw happening when the breakers went off. What really sucks (especially for the wife, I travel during the week), the garage door opener is on the study's circuit. For my only information...is it good that I have conduit because the arc/short goes to the conduit and then is grounded? Thanks! |
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For my only information...is it good that I have conduit because the arc/short goes to the conduit and then is grounded?
If the conduit connections aren't loose and the conduit is metallic ... yes, it should provide a ground path. However, I was thinking along the lines of ... if a conductor is skinned, overheated, etc... it is relatively easy to replace the conductors in the raceway. Romex is a different animal. FWIW ... is your garage door opener "hard-wired" , or does it plug in to a ceiling receptacle with a short piece of cord. If so, an extension cord plugged into a good outlet might save wifey a bit of work.  Just a thought.
Stay safe |
| This is exactly why electrical boxes (junctions) should never be covered (dry walled or paneled over). It sounds like you have a loose connection that is arcing, that's the buzzing sound. The good news is it's easy to fix and you probably haven't fried you wires because the breaker didn't trip. Locate the box that is buzzing, turn off that breaker, open the box, check for any live wires with either a multimeter, or a wand that lights up and beeps (hardware store has them cheap), in short make sure the wires aren't energized. Once you have determined it's not "live", check each wire in the box for a loose nut cap. This is where most connections come loose or are improperly installed. The nut or cap secures the "Twisted" wires together and thus makes a junction. The cap is then taped with electrical tape(in the direction of tightening) to ensure it stays in place. It sounds to me that one or more of the caps is loose and just needs to be tightened, but you should unscrew the caps and check the condition of all the wires (one at a time so as not to make a wrong connection) and look for burned insulation and or melted wire. You should have at least 6 inches of wire in each junction so all you have to do it cut out the bad part of the wire, strip the insulation off of 1/2 inch of the wire you just cut. Now twist the wires together (to the right) with pliers and use a cap (electrical nut) over your twisted wires and tape them with electrical tape. Now turn your breaker on and see if you have fixed the problem. This could also be a loose connection in an outlet or switch, the buzzing will tell you where it is, but being me, I would check all the boxes in the house. This isn't hard to do but if you don't feel up to it you should call an electrician. Even if you do call an electrician, you should get a few books (found at any hardware store) on basic house wiring, plumbing,dry walling, etc. Every home owner should have a basic level of knowledge of how your house works. Hope this helps. |
| With the power off and one hand behind your back, tighten all connections animal tight, a loose neutral wire is the worst culprit causing the buzzing, lights flickering and power to diminish at extremities. If you are not confident tightening the connections, get an electrician, you can get yourself killed. |
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Quoted:
USE THE TAPE, you do wrap your switches and outlets don't you? Don't tell me you use the plug in "stab" connections, bad form,bad. Unless it is a commercial job we use plastic boxes so there is no need for tape when side wired (or otherwise for that matter) |
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Quoted:
With the power off and one hand behind your back, tighten all connections animal tight, a loose neutral wire is the worst culprit causing the buzzing, lights flickering and power to diminish at extremities. If you are not confident tightening the connections, get an electrician, you can get yourself killed. Yeah, very possibly a poor nuetral somewhere. Could even have a bad leg coming in off the transformer/secondary outside. |
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UPDATE:
My electrician was in tonight, and had it down to which circuit was bad, believes its a bad neutral somewhere. Since we don't need the circuit that is bad (couple of ceiling lights and outlets), he will be back next week. I will let everyone know what happens, thanks for the responses. Personally, I have always taped the nuts because I figured that it wouldn't hurt when I replaced some lighting. Now I see the error of my ways! |
| I'm glad the gentleman is getting his problem fixed professionally, I never discourage calling a pro. I happen to believe in doing things I know I can do myself and/or learning to do them as well as a professional can do them. This is, after all, the "Do it yourself" forum, is it not? The gentleman asked for advise and I (and others) gave sound, safe advice. Show me where I have erred. Show me why "Electrical tape" is not safe to use in the application of wire nuts. Every, and I mean every professional electrician I have ever observed has used tape over the nut. It may be that it is code here, we use metal boxes and conduit. Plastic boxes,loose wire,romex or a/c beyond 6' are not allowed here. Why on earth does using tape disturb the electrician? Removing the tape is a simple matter of slicing it with a razor knife (carefully) and peeling it off, is this so hard? Each to his own I suppose, but I will always use the tape. As for my profession, I have many. One of which is being a certified Airframe and Powerplant technician where, strangely enough, we do not use tape. However, we do use heat shrink tubing over soldiered joints. Now then, for the home application, why not use the tape? |
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The NEC does not require tape or any other junk on wire nuts.
They are tested and listed as they are supplied. All the tape is is more junk to burn in the box if an arc occurs. The same goes with putting tape around switches and receptacles. It is not required and adds nothing to the installation's safety. If the devices are installed correctly in the box (even a metal box) there is adequate clearance from the screws on the device to the box sides. Chicagoland has crazy wiring rules, and it does not really appear to have done anything but provide lots of work for the IBEW. Pretty much the entire rest of the country allows NM, AC, and MC cables and no significant problems have ever occurred. Unless the circuit is a multiwire it is not a huge risk, though arcing from a loose connection can produce fires inside the box. The arc temperature can melt copper and steel, and produces insulation damage. In multiwire circuits a loose neutral can expose 120 V items to voltages approaching 240 V and damage them (or even cause a fire in them). |
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Put as much tape on those wire nuts as you like. I get paid by the hour. I think you guys have all missed the point of this persons thread. Then it seems there is a pissing contest about what is and isn't required. The NEC = minimum work required, there are also state, local and the AHJ who have a say in how things will and wont be done. I'm pretty sure somewhere in the beginning of the code book there is a passage that reads all work should be done in a workman like manner. (or something to that extent) People seem to skip that part.
When it comes to wiring there are many ways to do a task. As for wire nuts read the instructions that come with them. Wire nuts should be UL listed and sized accordingly. Then you could debate how to install a wire nut. Should you twist the wires then apply the wire nut, apply the wire nut and crimp it or apply a wire nut and secure it with tape. Depends on the brand and/or application. The topic can be debated all day long. To each his own. How many of you have soldered wires then used rubber tape and friction/fibrous tape to splice wires back in the day? I've been in the field long enough to see all sorts of electrical work either by an inexperienced homeowner, hack electrician, green apprentice, or just being down right lazy. If it is going to make you sleep at night then by all means put tape on your splices. Who cares what the electrician thinks when he comes to fix a problem. Any electrician worth a damn knows never to stomp all over someones electrical mess regardless of who caused it. An electrician is a professional and should conduct themselves in such a manner. One day if you continue to talk bad about other peoples work it will come back and bite you in the rear when you least expect it. And I guarantee one day you will be in the hot seat when you do something that didn't quite work out the way you wanted it to. Keep us updated on your outcome. I hope it is a simple fix. Good luck and sorry for the rant in your thread |
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Quoted:
Sir, stop posting so much and fix his problem, are you getting paid by the post?Put as much tape on those wire nuts as you like. I get paid by the hour. I think you guys have all missed the point of this persons thread. Then it seems there is a pissing contest about what is and isn't required. The NEC = minimum work required, there are also state, local and the AHJ who have a say in how things will and wont be done. I'm pretty sure somewhere in the beginning of the code book there is a passage that reads all work should be done in a workman like manner. (or something to that extent) People seem to skip that part. When it comes to wiring there are many ways to do a task. As for wire nuts read the instructions that come with them. Wire nuts should be UL listed and sized accordingly. Then you could debate how to install a wire nut. Should you twist the wires then apply the wire nut, apply the wire nut and crimp it or apply a wire nut and secure it with tape. Depends on the brand and/or application. The topic can be debated all day long. To each his own. How many of you have soldered wires then used rubber tape and friction/fibrous tape to splice wires back in the day? I've been in the field long enough to see all sorts of electrical work either by an inexperienced homeowner, hack electrician, green apprentice, or just being down right lazy. If it is going to make you sleep at night then by all means put tape on your splices. Who cares what the electrician thinks when he comes to fix a problem. Any electrician worth a damn knows never to stomp all over someones electrical mess regardless of who caused it. An electrician is a professional and should conduct themselves in such a manner. One day if you continue to talk bad about other peoples work it will come back and bite you in the rear when you least expect it. And I guarantee one day you will be in the hot seat when you do something that didn't quite work out the way you wanted it to. Keep us updated on your outcome. I hope it is a simple fix. Good luck and sorry for the rant in your thread 
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| Problem is fixed. Not caused by me or old wiring. It was explained to me that my house has edison neutrals, which are shared neutrals among circuits. When I had my furnace installed they disconnected the old line and reconnected a new line to the furnace which was grounded. The installer pushed the other shared neutral to the back of the panel box. That circuit I guess found a sneak way back to the box to complete a circuit but had been weak, thus the dimming lights. Now its all fixed, but need to take it up with the furnace installer. |
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Quoted:
Problem is fixed. Not caused by me or old wiring. It was explained to me that my house has edison neutrals, which are shared neutrals among circuits. When I had my furnace installed they disconnected the old line and reconnected a new line to the furnace which was grounded. The installer pushed the other shared neutral to the back of the panel box. That circuit I guess found a sneak way back to the box to complete a circuit but had been weak, thus the dimming lights. Now its all fixed, but need to take it up with the furnace installer. Hire someone who know what he hell they are doing. You may have already found the problem, but messing up a multiwire branch circuit indicates the installer was clueless. |