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Posted: 5/13/2004 5:17:35 AM EST
There is a whole thread in AR:Build It Yourself, mostly about 16" barrel ARs. Which got me to thinking.

16" barrel AR, or a 5.45 or .223 AK for a defensive carbine?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:25:01 AM EST
How about a Remington 870 with a 18" barrel, extended mag tube and sure-fire forend? Add a heat sheild and side saddle and you're all set for less than the price of a carbine.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:26:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 5:27:35 AM EST by SouthernShark]

Originally Posted By crazyquik:
There is a whole thread in AR:Build It Yourself, mostly about 16" barrel ARs. Which got me to thinking.

16" barrel AR, or a 5.45 or .223 AK for a defensive carbine?



I'd consider an AK-74 if you can find one. I had an AD in my house once with mine. It went through one wall, but bounced off the other one. I don't see how it could have been lethal when it entered the second room, as it barely chipped the paint on the opposite wall.

As for .223 cal AK v/s AR, IMHO it's up to you. The AK is probably better, in that the OAL is shorter. AR's are cool too though.

IMHO the best gun for home defense is a NFA MAC-10 with a can.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:27:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Blued-Steel:
How about a Remington 870 with a 18" barrel, extended mag tube and sure-fire forend? Add a heat sheild and side saddle and you're all set for less than the price of a carbine.




Very good suggestion for home defence.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:28:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By Blued-Steel:
How about a Remington 870 with a 18" barrel, extended mag tube and sure-fire forend? Add a heat sheild and side saddle and you're all set for less than the price of a carbine.



DING DING DING!

We have a Winner!

SG
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:28:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Blued-Steel:
How about a Remington 870 with a 18" barrel, extended mag tube and sure-fire forend? Add a heat sheild and side saddle and you're all set for less than the price of a carbine.




Very good suggestion for home defence.



X2
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:28:42 AM EST
AK.
Why? Because it's a "throw away".
If you need to "defend" yourself beyond approx. 7 yards range, you're going to have an aweful lot of explaining to do.
I'm not a fan of using expensive guns for garden variety self defense. Especially after viewing the pics of that poor schmuck's Glock after it was released from the police evidence room.
Reliability is the most important thing.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:30:59 AM EST
AK seems reliable enough.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:32:12 AM EST
If not an 870, maybe the Beretta CX-4 Storm in .45ACP?


Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:33:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By Greg3:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Blued-Steel:
How about a Remington 870 with a 18" barrel, extended mag tube and sure-fire forend? Add a heat sheild and side saddle and you're all set for less than the price of a carbine.




Very good suggestion for home defence.



X2



X3
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:34:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By Greg3:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Blued-Steel:
How about a Remington 870 with a 18" barrel, extended mag tube and sure-fire forend? Add a heat sheild and side saddle and you're all set for less than the price of a carbine.




Very good suggestion for home defence.



X2



+1.

Or an 11-87 or 1100 if you didn't spend the last 20 years shooting a pump shotgun on a regular basis.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:35:21 AM EST
12 gauge side by side, 20" barrel, cylinder bore, 00 buck. It has a ferocious punch and you don't have to aim it too well. I have a lot of respect for firearms of the old west. They hit hard.

I think an AR would be okay. I'd go with the AR15 shorty and lead tip bullets.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:40:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 5:48:57 AM EST by photoman]

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Blued-Steel:
How about a Remington 870 with a 18" barrel, extended mag tube and sure-fire forend? Add a heat sheild and side saddle and you're all set for less than the price of a carbine.




Very good suggestion for home defence.



Not really. If yer in an urban area the shot gun or a hand gun can be more of a liability than a rifle in .223. Over penetration is an issue with hand gun rounds and shotgun rounds.


Either gun will work, it's the round thats important, not the gun. as long as the gun is reliable and goes bang when you pull the trigger thats all thats needed. The ammo you select to use will be more important.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:41:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:44:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:47:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Blued-Steel:
How about a Remington 870 with a 18" barrel, extended mag tube and sure-fire forend? Add a heat sheild and side saddle and you're all set for less than the price of a carbine.




Very good suggestion for home defence.



Not really. If yer in an urban area the shot gun or a hand gun can be more of a liability than a rifle in .223. Over penetration is an issue with hand gun rounds and shotgun rounds.



Please explain overpenetration with a shotgun. Unless you are talking about slugs, which wouldn't be a good round for this application.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:48:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By RS39:
You are more likely to enjoy and therefore practice with an AK74 over a compact shotgun. I think that a pistol grip shotty is best for the home, just pick your load. Otherwise, I enjoy a 5.45 AK with an inserted full mag behind a door, safety out of the way, ready to rack n roll.

Bonus points for not leaving 2 sides to the story with only 1 shot.



That's not neccesarily true. I could care less about shooting an AK, for aesthetic reasons as much as anything. However, I shoot thousands o rounds through an 870 in a good year, mostly at doves, ducks, quail, rabbits, squirrels, and a few skeet. Remember, some folks here own guns as hobby tools, not as hobbies per se.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:50:46 AM EST

Over penetration is an issue with hand gun rounds and shotgun rounds.


Not with an appropriately loaded shotgun. You really think .223 is safer than #4 shot as far as overpenetration goes?

I squeezed off a .223 in a small room once. Wow. Made me realize how flash bang grenades stunned people. Despite the research regarding 9mm vs .223 for penetration, I'll stick with my handgun or 9mm carbine.

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:09:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 6:18:20 AM EST by Hawkeye]
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:09:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gun-fan:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Blued-Steel:
How about a Remington 870 with a 18" barrel, extended mag tube and sure-fire forend? Add a heat sheild and side saddle and you're all set for less than the price of a carbine.




Very good suggestion for home defence.



Not really. If yer in an urban area the shot gun or a hand gun can be more of a liability than a rifle in .223. Over penetration is an issue with hand gun rounds and shotgun rounds.



Please explain overpenetration with a shotgun. Unless you are talking about slugs, which wouldn't be a good round for this application.




Start here

Check this too



Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:11:39 AM EST
oh god not this shit again

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:25:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Coolio:
AK.
Why? Because it's a "throw away".
If you need to "defend" yourself beyond approx. 7 yards range, you're going to have an aweful lot of explaining to do.
I'm not a fan of using expensive guns for garden variety self defense. Especially after viewing the pics of that poor schmuck's Glock after it was released from the police evidence room.
Reliability is the most important thing.




EXACTELY why I have a mossburg 500 that was FREE (no It didn't come from my evidence room) works everytime I pull the trigger and now that I am EX law enforcement if I use it in self preservation the local PD can have it LOL.

I am gonna paint it though since it was free, and I really need to do something to make the prosecutor call it EVIL.

Hunter out....



Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:26:47 AM EST
I like the m1 carbine with the .30 cal (magnum) round.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:34:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Coolio:
AK.
Why? Because it's a "throw away".
If you need to "defend" yourself beyond approx. 7 yards range, you're going to have an aweful lot of explaining to do.
I'm not a fan of using expensive guns for garden variety self defense. Especially after viewing the pics of that poor schmuck's Glock after it was released from the police evidence room.
Reliability is the most important thing.




There is NO such thing as "Garden Variety Self Defense" !!!!

If you are in a defensive situation that requires you to shoot (i.e. Deadly Force), then by God use the most effective tool you can !!! I don't care if it's a suppressed SMG, if the shoot is justified it's justified.

If when you pull that trigger, you are worried about the cost of your gun, then maybe you aren't in a situation that requires you to pull the trigger in the first place.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:35:08 AM EST
my HD carbine is a Ruger PC-9GR, I keep a 20 rd magazine in it loaded with GOLD DOT 124 Gr JHP +P ammo and two extra loaded 15 rd mags in the buttstock pouch.

a shotgun has the best knock down power though for home defense, I would choose a Remington 870 before i would use an AR or AK, plus it will be more PC.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:38:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By 223-Buckaroo:

Originally Posted By Coolio:
AK.
Why? Because it's a "throw away".
If you need to "defend" yourself beyond approx. 7 yards range, you're going to have an aweful lot of explaining to do.
I'm not a fan of using expensive guns for garden variety self defense. Especially after viewing the pics of that poor schmuck's Glock after it was released from the police evidence room.
Reliability is the most important thing.




There is NO such thing as "Garden Variety Self Defense" !!!!

If you are in a defensive situation that requires you to shoot (i.e. Deadly Force), then by God use the most effective tool you can !!! I don't care if it's a suppressed SMG, if the shoot is justified it's justified.

If when you pull that trigger, you are worried about the cost of your gun, then maybe you aren't in a situation that requires you to pull the trigger in the first place.



Me thinks you've had a little too much caffeine.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:43:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By Coolio:

Originally Posted By 223-Buckaroo:

Originally Posted By Coolio:
AK.
Why? Because it's a "throw away".
If you need to "defend" yourself beyond approx. 7 yards range, you're going to have an aweful lot of explaining to do.
I'm not a fan of using expensive guns for garden variety self defense. Especially after viewing the pics of that poor schmuck's Glock after it was released from the police evidence room.
Reliability is the most important thing.




There is NO such thing as "Garden Variety Self Defense" !!!!

If you are in a defensive situation that requires you to shoot (i.e. Deadly Force), then by God use the most effective tool you can !!! I don't care if it's a suppressed SMG, if the shoot is justified it's justified.

If when you pull that trigger, you are worried about the cost of your gun, then maybe you aren't in a situation that requires you to pull the trigger in the first place.



Me thinks you've had a little too much caffeine.





Caffeine !!! You can never have too much caffeine !!!
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:47:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Coolio:
AK.
Why? Because it's a "throw away".
If you need to "defend" yourself beyond approx. 7 yards range, you're going to have an aweful lot of explaining to do.
I'm not a fan of using expensive guns for garden variety self defense. Especially after viewing the pics of that poor schmuck's Glock after it was released from the police evidence room.
Reliability is the most important thing.




Uh, losing your weapon is probably the least of your worries after a defensive shooting.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:55:09 AM EST
Another vote for the shotty. Versatile, reliable, easy to use, undisputed knockdown, and cheap to buy.

I keep a Winchester 1300 Defender, 18" barrel, 6 round capacity, pistol gripped, for home defense. Loaded with 2 3/4 000 buck.

Paid around $180 new for it, IIRC. For that price you can get a couple, have an extra for SHTF puposes, truck gun, etc.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:56:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 6:57:20 AM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:02:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By Thunderbolt:
my HD carbine is a Ruger PC-9GR, I keep a 20 rd magazine in it loaded with GOLD DOT 124 Gr JHP +P ammo and two extra loaded 15 rd mags in the buttstock pouch.

a shotgun has the best knock down power though for home defense, I would choose a Remington 870 before i would use an AR or AK, plus it will be more PC.




What the hell does PC have to do with defending your life? Not a damn thing.

Fuck chosing a weapon based on PC bullshit, use what gives you the best chance to come out on top.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:02:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Thunderbolt:
my HD carbine is a Ruger PC-9GR, I keep a 20 rd magazine in it loaded with GOLD DOT 124 Gr JHP +P ammo and two extra loaded 15 rd mags in the buttstock pouch.

a shotgun has the best knock down power though for home defense, I would choose a Remington 870 before i would use an AR or AK, plus it will be more PC.




What the hell does PC have to do with defending your life? Not a damn thing.

Fuck chosing a weapon based on PC bullshit, use what gives you the best chance to come out on top.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:04:46 AM EST
click click boom


minus the bipod of course

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:13:13 AM EST
I won't use a shotgun for home defense due to the lack of precision. If someone is holding a family member, I want the ability to make a very precise shot as rapidly as possible. There are other things to avoid as well in your home.

OO buck will penetrate walls to a greater degree than .223, FWIW. This is a common misconception.

I keep an M4 handy as well as a handgun.
I guess the main thing is to be proficient with whatever you use, and understand the shortcomings of your weapon of choice.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:13:27 AM EST
Man, I cant quite decide whether that is beautiful or Fugly

On second thoughts I'll have to go with beautiful.

Nice price tag tho'

/Phil
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:15:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:17:15 AM EST by CAR-10]

Originally Posted By equin0x:
Man, I cant quite decide whether that is beautiful or Fugly

On second thoughts I'll have to go with beautiful.

Nice price tag tho'



It's both fugly and yet beautiful at the same time.

And no, it wasn't cheap.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:16:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By hielo:

Originally Posted By Coolio:
AK.
Why? Because it's a "throw away".
If you need to "defend" yourself beyond approx. 7 yards range, you're going to have an aweful lot of explaining to do.
I'm not a fan of using expensive guns for garden variety self defense. Especially after viewing the pics of that poor schmuck's Glock after it was released from the police evidence room.
Reliability is the most important thing.




Uh, losing your weapon is probably the least of your worries after a defensive shooting.



No. I don't believe that's true.
I believe that the whole premise of self defense is based upon the idea that I will succeed in: 1) preserving my health, 2) preserving my home, 3) preserving my possessions. And that I will be able to pick up my life pretty much where I left off at the time the threat originally materialized.
This means that sacrificing any of the items on the above list is unacceptable, including my most valuable weapons.
I have no intention of allowing some snot nose punk who thinks he is going to crawl through one of the windows in my home to succeed in damaging any aspect of my life.
Now, realize, I'm not talking about some sort of hypothetical SHTF senario here. If there were to be some sort of total breakown in law and order along the lines of the L.A. riots, THAT would obviously call for a different approach.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:19:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
I take it everyone that recommends a shotgun for home defense:

a. doesnt have children, elderly or any other loved ones in their house
b. keeps them in the same room if they do
c. doesnt plan on ever having to make a shot around/above/next to/past them.
d. has refined their pump gun skills so they can manipulate the weapon and escort and/or carry a small child out of danger.


Oh wait, just the sound of a guage being racked is going to scare the shit out of the guy tweakin on meth that broke into your house....my bad.



No kids. Wife sleeps next to me.

Keep a g26 under the pillow as well. If someone's kicking in my door, shotgun. If I hear a weird noise, suspect somebody may be outside, etc, Glock.

I don't plan on pulling the trigger unless I know damn well I'm gonna hit what I'm aiming at.

What do you suggest? Not a flame, but seriously?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:30:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
I take it everyone that recommends a shotgun for home defense:

a. doesnt have children, elderly or any other loved ones in their house
b. keeps them in the same room if they do
c. doesnt plan on ever having to make a shot around/above/next to/past them.
d. has refined their pump gun skills so they can manipulate the weapon and escort and/or carry a small child out of danger.


Oh wait, just the sound of a guage being racked is going to scare the shit out of the guy tweakin on meth that broke into your house....my bad.



No children, no wife.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:34:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:40:50 AM EST by livefreeordieNH]

Originally Posted By photoman:

What the hell does PC have to do with defending your life?



have you stopped to think what WILL happen to you after the shooting is over and you are in court in front of a judge and jury?

have you considered how the prosecuting attorney will portray you as a "murderous gun nut" using an "evil assault weapon" to "kill this poor burglar"?

have you considered that the average american sheep on the jury will be swayed by idiotic crap like the above?

like having your freedom? that's why you better give a damn about "PC Bullshit"



ETA: Fucking time-outs. I clicked submit ONCE.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:43:12 AM EST by livefreeordieNH]


Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:43:28 AM EST by livefreeordieNH]

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:42:41 AM EST by livefreeordieNH]

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:42:24 AM EST by livefreeordieNH]
arrgh sorry. for dupes
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:41:58 AM EST by livefreeordieNH]


Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:41:45 AM EST by livefreeordieNH]
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:41:27 AM EST by livefreeordieNH]


Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:39:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:41:12 AM EST by livefreeordieNH]


Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:52:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By livefreeordieNH:




Congrats, you made it to 500 with that stunt.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:57:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAR-10:

Originally Posted By livefreeordieNH:




Congrats, you made it to 500 with that stunt.



stunt?

i posted a reply, clicked submit and ended up with several duplicate posts i then edited.

was not intentional.
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