Holy Spirit: Direct or Mediated? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/18/2026 6:54:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Bishop3][Edited]
Good morning.  Does the Holy Spirit’s internal witness and leading belong directly to every born-again believer by faith and obedience to the gospel, or must it be mediated through hierarchical sacraments and tradition? The witness and leading of the Holy Spirit for every born-again (born from above) believer is central to assurance, guidance; for living out God’s will and purpose for your life. The gift of the Holy Spirit. He has not left me. 'The Holy Spirit is my witness'. The witness of the Spirit; this is the internal, personal confirmation that you belong to God. It is not mere emotion or self-talk. (see Romans 8:14-16)<<< God has a plan and a purpose for your life, His plan has not changed. Matthew 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” ~ John the baptist Mark 1:7-8 And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Luke 3:16 “John answered and said to them all, ‘As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.’” John 1:33 “I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’” Jesus is the Baptizer in (with) the Holy Spirit and fire. Love God, love people, shine, shine His Light (Jesus is the Light of the world) Maranatha Edited: grammar/ clarity |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Good morning. The witness and leading of the Holy Spirit for every born-again (born from above) believer is central to assurance, guidance; for living out God’s will and purpose for your life. The gift of the Holy Spirit. He has not left me. 'The Holy Spirit is my witness'. The witness of the Spirit; this is the internal, personal confirmation that you belong to God. It is not mere emotion or self-talk. (see Romans 8:14-16)<<< God has a plan and a purpose for your life, His plan has not changed. Does the Holy Spirit’s internal witness and leading belong directly to every born-again believer by faith and obedience to the gospel, or must it be mediated through hierarchical sacraments and tradition? Matthew 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” ~ John the baptist Luke 3:16 “John answered and said to them all, ‘As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.’” John 1:33 “I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’” Jesus is the Baptizer of the Holy Spirit and fire. Mark 1:7-8 And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Love God, love people, shine, shine His Light (Jesus is the Light of the world) Maranatha Amen to Truth! I was reminded of JESUS' Words to John the baptist when he was imprisioned, doubting, and discouraged. Matthew 11:2-6 (4. JESUS answered and said unto them, Go and share to John again those things which you do hear and see. (5. The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor in spirit have the gospel preached to them. (6. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. JESUS the baptizer with HOLY SPIRIT and fire. |
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Hi there. For the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith Against the Profane Novelties of All Heresies. Chapter 2: A General Rule for distinguishing the Truth of the Catholic Faith from the Falsehood of Heretical Pravity. St. Vincent of Lerins. 450 AD. I have often then inquired earnestly and attentively of very many men eminent for sanctity and learning, how and by what sure and so to speak universal rule I may be able to distinguish the truth of Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical pravity; and I have always, and in almost every instance, received an answer to this effect: That whether I or any one else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they rise, and to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church. But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation? For this reason — because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another; so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. For Novatian expounds it one way, Sabellius another, Donatus another, Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, another, Photinus, Apollinaris, Priscillian, another, Iovinian, Pelagius, Celestius, another, lastly, Nestorius another. Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation. Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and in the strictest sense Catholic, which, as the name itself and the reason of the thing declare, comprehends all universally. This rule we shall observe if we follow universality, antiquity, consent. We shall follow universality if we confess that one faith to be true, which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity, if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is manifest were notoriously held by our holy ancestors and fathers; consent, in like manner, if in antiquity itself we adhere to the consentient definitions and determinations of all, or at the least of almost all priests and doctors. |
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The Spirit does not leave the born-again believer to figure out God’s will alone. The witness of the Spirit: Romans 8:14–16 “For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, ‘Abba! Father!’ The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.” John 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” ... “he will guide you into all the truth… and he will declare to you the things that are to come.” ~ Jesus the Son of God Romans 8:26–27 The Spirit “helps our weakness” and “intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words… according to the will of God.” Romans 8:14 and Galatians 5:18 ...those led by the Spirit are the sons of God and are not under the law. --- Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Does the Holy Spirit’s internal witness and leading belong directly to every born-again believer by faith and obedience to the gospel, or must it be mediated through hierarchical sacraments and tradition? Oh 100% the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church and is present in the administering of sacraments...not supposedly 'witnessing' to heresies that "totally coincidently" match your own flawed interpretations. Is this like a joke question? Edit: I just answered how I wanted since the question itself set up a poorly worded false dichotomy made-up of strawmen. |
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Quoting John 16:13 is a very curious choice. Word of God. I believe Jesus is who He says He is. I trust Him. He, the Holy Spirit leads (navigates) the believer by illuminating Scripture, convicting of sin, producing the fruit of the Spirit, empowering obedience and witness, and directing his steps in the larger plan of salvation and sanctification. Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Acts 1:8 ..."but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” God’s purposes are fulfilled as the Spirit works in the regenerated heart both “to will and to work for His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 ... for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Word of God. I believe Jesus is who He says He is. I trust Him. He, the Holy Spirit leads (navigates) the believer by illuminating Scripture, convicting of sin, producing the fruit of the Spirit, empowering obedience and witness, and directing his steps in the larger plan of salvation and sanctification. Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Acts 1:8 ..."but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” God’s purposes are fulfilled as the Spirit works in the regenerated heart both “to will and to work for His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 ... for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. Amen my brother. The WORD of the Living GOD. Who will resist it? Stephen and the WORD tells us. Acts 7:48-56 (51. You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do you. Remember the LORD JESUS told them they were of their father the devil. II Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. GOD resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. |
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: The pride of thinking every Bible verse is speaking directly to yourself… Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD GOD. Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4. ~JESUS and Moses. |
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Originally Posted By Raidersgone: Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD GOD. Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4. ~JESUS and Moses. Originally Posted By Raidersgone: Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: The pride of thinking every Bible verse is speaking directly to yourself… Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD GOD. Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4. ~JESUS and Moses. Do you have the power to bind or loose sins? Are you ruling a tribe of Israel? |
Give me that old time religion
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Titus 3:4-5 "But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"... ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle John 3:5-8 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” ~ Jesus the Son of Man, Son of God >The same Spirit who regenerates the heart, now testifies with the believers spirit.< 1 John 5:6-9 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. ~ John the Lord's Apostle “It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth… the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.” The Spirit’s witness aligns with the historical facts of Christ’s baptism and death and with the written Word. |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Good morning. Does the Holy Spirit’s internal witness and leading belong directly to every born-again believer by faith and obedience to the gospel, or must it be mediated through hierarchical sacraments and tradition? The witness and leading of the Holy Spirit for every born-again (born from above) believer is central to assurance, guidance; for living out God’s will and purpose for your life. The gift of the Holy Spirit. He has not left me. 'The Holy Spirit is my witness'. The witness of the Spirit; this is the internal, personal confirmation that you belong to God. It is not mere emotion or self-talk. (see Romans 8:14-16)<<< God has a plan and a purpose for your life, His plan has not changed. Matthew 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” ~ John the baptist Mark 1:7-8 And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Luke 3:16 “John answered and said to them all, ‘As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.’” John 1:33 “I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’” Jesus is the Baptizer of the Holy Spirit and fire. Love God, love people, shine, shine His Light (Jesus is the Light of the world) Maranatha Since this is yet another thread clearly aimed at the Catholic Church, I’ll give a summary of the Church’s position in the words of Erick Ybarra (good timing, just read this yesterday; The bishops at Vatican II state plainly that Christ continues to fulfill his prophetic office "not only through the hierarchy who teach in His name and with His authority, but also through the laity whom He made His witnesses and to whom He gave understanding of the faith (sensus fidei) and an attractiveness in speech so that the power of the Gospel might shine forth in their daily social and family life."4 The International Theological Commission taught that "all the baptized" participate in the prophetic, kingly, and priestly ministry of Christ, and that the Second Vatican Council taught "that Christ fulfills his prophetic office not only by means of the hierarchy but also via the laity."45 |
Give me that old time religion
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Stop lying. Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Originally Posted By Bishop3: Word of God. I believe Jesus is who He says He is. I trust Him. Stop lying. Does the Word of God and the Holy Spirit always agree? Yes. The Spirit is the author of Scripture. 2 Peter 1:19–21 "So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, --- no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” ~ Peter the Lord's Apostle “men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” Any claimed “leading” that contradicts the written Word is not the Holy Spirit. The Spirit never contradicts Himself. Philippians 2:12 ..."So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;"... ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle The most sure indication or discernment a believer has while working out his own salvation and seeking God’s will is the Spirit’s internal witness tested and confirmed by the clear teaching of Scripture. God is not necessarily a feeling. Subjective impressions are secondary and must submit to the objective, more-sure Word of God. >We walk by faith, not by sight.< |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Does the Holy Spirit’s internal witness and leading belong directly to every born-again believer by faith and obedience to the gospel, or must it be mediated through hierarchical sacraments and tradition? The framing of your question shows that you do not understand “hierarchical sacraments and tradition” and the roles they should play in the life of a Christian. This thread is another justification of making up a theology or system of belief as you go along. I see it because I was there for decades. What I found out is that if you actually seek God Himself and not personal glory by trying to show you have a deeper revelation than others, the Holy Spirit will guide you into some of His truth. Why I became Catholic after 49 years of study is because I saw that what I believed most closely aligned with the Catholic Church. I was not studying Catholicism. I was studying everything else but Catholicism, and I spent much time in prayer and thought about the meaning of what I read in the Bible. This is where 49 years led me. What stands out is that I could have saved myself years of progress if I had studied Aquinas, Augustine, and others more. There is very little need to recreate wheels in Christianity when there are all sorts of wheels ready to be used. One thing: Had I detected any inkling that the Catholic Church doctrine did not consider my decades of walking with God to be a clear indicator that I was already saved apart from the Catholic Church, then I would not have joined. To join and be forced to say “now I am saved because I am Catholic” would have required me to disavow everything God had done in my life up to that point. Fortunately, the Catholic Church does not believe that. Save yourself some time. There are all sorts of writings to study that can increase your knowledge of God and strengthen your walk with Him, regardless of whether you become Catholic or not. And what they will definitely do is to help you avoid pride and heresy. |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Subjective impressions are secondary and must submit to the objective, more-sure Word of God. Using what as a measure of orthodox belief? Bear with me for a moment, because I am trying to understand if there are some restraints on your interpretations of the "more-sure Word of God". If there is a body of belief that has been attested to by its acceptance as True Faith, and you have a belief that is wildly contrary because you believe that the Holy Spirit has led you to that new development, do you pause to study the innovation and consider whether or not it is a valid revelation from the Holy Spirit, or do you just run with it? If you do pause, do you measure your revelation against something? What would that standard of measurement be? If you believe it was the Holy Spirit who led you to that belief, do you only go back to ask, "Was that really You?" Or do you refer some other tool? Do you have brothers who act as sounding boards for what you think may be a revelation, or are they only echo chambers for what you tell them? Making it up as you go along is fraught with all sorts of pitfalls. |
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Originally Posted By monadh: The framing of your question shows that you do not understand “hierarchical sacraments and tradition” and the roles they should play in the life of a Christian. This thread is another justification of making up a theology or system of belief as you go along. I see it because I was there for decades. What I found out is that if you actually seek God Himself and not personal glory by trying to show you have a deeper revelation than others, the Holy Spirit will guide you into some of His truth. Why I became Catholic after 49 years of study is because I saw that what I believed most closely aligned with the Catholic Church. I was not studying Catholicism. I was studying everything else but Catholicism, and I spent much time in prayer and thought about the meaning of what I read in the Bible. This is where 49 years led me. What stands out is that I could have saved myself years of progress if I had studied Aquinas, Augustine, and others more. There is very little need to recreate wheels in Christianity when there are all sorts of wheels ready to be used. One thing: Had I detected any inkling that the Catholic Church doctrine did not consider my decades of walking with God to be a clear indicator that I was already saved apart from the Catholic Church, then I would not have joined. To join and be forced to say “now I am saved because I am Catholic” would have required me to disavow everything God had done in my life up to that point. Fortunately, the Catholic Church does not believe that. Save yourself some time. There are all sorts of writings to study that can increase your knowledge of God and strengthen your walk with Him, regardless of whether you become Catholic or not. And what they will definitely do is to help you avoid pride and heresy. Originally Posted By monadh: Originally Posted By Bishop3: Does the Holy Spirit’s internal witness and leading belong directly to every born-again believer by faith and obedience to the gospel, or must it be mediated through hierarchical sacraments and tradition? The framing of your question shows that you do not understand “hierarchical sacraments and tradition” and the roles they should play in the life of a Christian. This thread is another justification of making up a theology or system of belief as you go along. I see it because I was there for decades. What I found out is that if you actually seek God Himself and not personal glory by trying to show you have a deeper revelation than others, the Holy Spirit will guide you into some of His truth. Why I became Catholic after 49 years of study is because I saw that what I believed most closely aligned with the Catholic Church. I was not studying Catholicism. I was studying everything else but Catholicism, and I spent much time in prayer and thought about the meaning of what I read in the Bible. This is where 49 years led me. What stands out is that I could have saved myself years of progress if I had studied Aquinas, Augustine, and others more. There is very little need to recreate wheels in Christianity when there are all sorts of wheels ready to be used. One thing: Had I detected any inkling that the Catholic Church doctrine did not consider my decades of walking with God to be a clear indicator that I was already saved apart from the Catholic Church, then I would not have joined. To join and be forced to say “now I am saved because I am Catholic” would have required me to disavow everything God had done in my life up to that point. Fortunately, the Catholic Church does not believe that. Save yourself some time. There are all sorts of writings to study that can increase your knowledge of God and strengthen your walk with Him, regardless of whether you become Catholic or not. And what they will definitely do is to help you avoid pride and heresy. Good morning, sir. I do appreciate your personal story and believe that you are sincere. Has the devil ever tried to talk you out of something good? Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession. (see James 1:17-18) I've prayed to my Father and asked Him to show me His glory. |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Good morning, sir. I do appreciate your personal story and believe that you are sincere. Has the devil ever tried to talk you out of something good? Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession. (see James 1:17-18) I've prayed to my Father and asked Him to show me His glory. Originally Posted By Bishop3: Originally Posted By monadh: Originally Posted By Bishop3: Does the Holy Spirit’s internal witness and leading belong directly to every born-again believer by faith and obedience to the gospel, or must it be mediated through hierarchical sacraments and tradition? The framing of your question shows that you do not understand “hierarchical sacraments and tradition” and the roles they should play in the life of a Christian. This thread is another justification of making up a theology or system of belief as you go along. I see it because I was there for decades. What I found out is that if you actually seek God Himself and not personal glory by trying to show you have a deeper revelation than others, the Holy Spirit will guide you into some of His truth. Why I became Catholic after 49 years of study is because I saw that what I believed most closely aligned with the Catholic Church. I was not studying Catholicism. I was studying everything else but Catholicism, and I spent much time in prayer and thought about the meaning of what I read in the Bible. This is where 49 years led me. What stands out is that I could have saved myself years of progress if I had studied Aquinas, Augustine, and others more. There is very little need to recreate wheels in Christianity when there are all sorts of wheels ready to be used. One thing: Had I detected any inkling that the Catholic Church doctrine did not consider my decades of walking with God to be a clear indicator that I was already saved apart from the Catholic Church, then I would not have joined. To join and be forced to say “now I am saved because I am Catholic” would have required me to disavow everything God had done in my life up to that point. Fortunately, the Catholic Church does not believe that. Save yourself some time. There are all sorts of writings to study that can increase your knowledge of God and strengthen your walk with Him, regardless of whether you become Catholic or not. And what they will definitely do is to help you avoid pride and heresy. Good morning, sir. I do appreciate your personal story and believe that you are sincere. Has the devil ever tried to talk you out of something good? Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession. (see James 1:17-18) I've prayed to my Father and asked Him to show me His glory. Even Peter needed Paul to keep him straight. |
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Originally Posted By monadh: Even Peter needed Paul to keep him straight. Originally Posted By monadh: Originally Posted By Bishop3: Originally Posted By monadh: Originally Posted By Bishop3: Does the Holy Spirit’s internal witness and leading belong directly to every born-again believer by faith and obedience to the gospel, or must it be mediated through hierarchical sacraments and tradition? The framing of your question shows that you do not understand “hierarchical sacraments and tradition” and the roles they should play in the life of a Christian. This thread is another justification of making up a theology or system of belief as you go along. I see it because I was there for decades. What I found out is that if you actually seek God Himself and not personal glory by trying to show you have a deeper revelation than others, the Holy Spirit will guide you into some of His truth. Why I became Catholic after 49 years of study is because I saw that what I believed most closely aligned with the Catholic Church. I was not studying Catholicism. I was studying everything else but Catholicism, and I spent much time in prayer and thought about the meaning of what I read in the Bible. This is where 49 years led me. What stands out is that I could have saved myself years of progress if I had studied Aquinas, Augustine, and others more. There is very little need to recreate wheels in Christianity when there are all sorts of wheels ready to be used. One thing: Had I detected any inkling that the Catholic Church doctrine did not consider my decades of walking with God to be a clear indicator that I was already saved apart from the Catholic Church, then I would not have joined. To join and be forced to say “now I am saved because I am Catholic” would have required me to disavow everything God had done in my life up to that point. Fortunately, the Catholic Church does not believe that. Save yourself some time. There are all sorts of writings to study that can increase your knowledge of God and strengthen your walk with Him, regardless of whether you become Catholic or not. And what they will definitely do is to help you avoid pride and heresy. Good morning, sir. I do appreciate your personal story and believe that you are sincere. Has the devil ever tried to talk you out of something good? Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession. (see James 1:17-18) I've prayed to my Father and asked Him to show me His glory. Even Peter needed Paul to keep him straight. Yep  we need each other. It is the Lord's will that we be one in Him.
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USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS
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Originally Posted By monadh: Using what as a measure of orthodox belief? Bear with me for a moment, because I am trying to understand if there are some restraints on your interpretations of the "more-sure Word of God". If there is a body of belief that has been attested to by its acceptance as True Faith, and you have a belief that is wildly contrary because you believe that the Holy Spirit has led you to that new development, do you pause to study the innovation and consider whether or not it is a valid revelation from the Holy Spirit, or do you just run with it? If you do pause, do you measure your revelation against something? What would that standard of measurement be? If you believe it was the Holy Spirit who led you to that belief, do you only go back to ask, "Was that really You?" Or do you refer some other tool? Do you have brothers who act as sounding boards for what you think may be a revelation, or are they only echo chambers for what you tell them? Making it up as you go along is fraught with all sorts of pitfalls. Originally Posted By monadh: Originally Posted By Bishop3: Subjective impressions are secondary and must submit to the objective, more-sure Word of God. Using what as a measure of orthodox belief? Bear with me for a moment, because I am trying to understand if there are some restraints on your interpretations of the "more-sure Word of God". If there is a body of belief that has been attested to by its acceptance as True Faith, and you have a belief that is wildly contrary because you believe that the Holy Spirit has led you to that new development, do you pause to study the innovation and consider whether or not it is a valid revelation from the Holy Spirit, or do you just run with it? If you do pause, do you measure your revelation against something? What would that standard of measurement be? If you believe it was the Holy Spirit who led you to that belief, do you only go back to ask, "Was that really You?" Or do you refer some other tool? Do you have brothers who act as sounding boards for what you think may be a revelation, or are they only echo chambers for what you tell them? Making it up as you go along is fraught with all sorts of pitfalls. Thank you for the important question. Scripture itself gives the standard and the process. The written Word of God is the final, objective measure. see 2 Peter 1:19–21 Peter the Lord's Apostle says, “So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place… But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” --- Any claimed leading, impression, or “revelation” that contradicts the already-given Scripture is immediately ruled out. The Spirit who inspired the Word does not contradict the Word He inspired. We are commanded to test everything. Thessalonians 5:19–22 “Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.” ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle 1 John 4:1 “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” ~ John the Lord's Apostle 1 Corinthians 14:29 “Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.” ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle Even an angelic message is rejected if it contradicts the gospel already received. Galatians 1:8–9 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!” ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle Here are some practical applications for you when something is claimed as from the Holy Spirit: First, does it agree with the clear teaching of Scripture? Does it exalt and confess Jesus Christ as He is revealed in Scripture? 1 John 4:2-3 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. ~ John the Lord's Apostle John 16:13-14 ..."But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. ~ Jesus, Son of Man Son of God Does it produce the fruit of the Spirit and lead to holiness, or does it produce confusion, pride, or departure from the faith once for all delivered? Ask, is it submitted to the judgment of mature, filled with the Spirit brothers, who also hold the Word as final (see 1 Cor 14:29)? We do not “just run with it.” We do not treat brothers as mere echo chambers. We do not ask only “was that really you?” while ignoring the already-spoken Word. The Spirit and the Word always agree. Any “new development” that is wildly contrary to the apostolic gospel and the written Scriptures is not from the Holy Spirit, no matter how strongly someone feels it. The standard is not a personal certainty of an impression. The standard is the more-sure prophetic Word, examined carefully, tested by the body, and held fast only if it is good and true according to Scripture. Now, all of that said... Yes. God does reveal (manifest) Himself to us personally. So personal revelation and relationship are real. A believers life is not merely intellectual assent to a book; it is living fellowship with the living God through the Spirit. The same Spirit who speaks to our hearts is the Spirit who inspired the Scriptures. (see 2 Peter 1:21) |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Thank you for the important question. Scripture itself gives the standard and the process. The written Word of God is the final, objective measure. see 2 Peter 1:19–21 Peter the Lord's Apostle says, “So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place… But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” --- Any claimed leading, impression, or “revelation” that contradicts the already-given Scripture is immediately ruled out. The Spirit who inspired the Word does not contradict the Word He inspired. We are commanded to test everything. Thessalonians 5:19–22 “Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.” ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle 1 John 4:1 “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” ~ John the Lord's Apostle 1 Corinthians 14:29 “Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.” ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle Even an angelic message is rejected if it contradicts the gospel already received. Galatians 1:8–9 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!” ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle Here are some practical applications for you when something is claimed as from the Holy Spirit: First, does it agree with the clear teaching of Scripture? Does it exalt and confess Jesus Christ as He is revealed in Scripture? 1 John 4:2-3 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. ~ John the Lord's Apostle John 16:13-14 ..."But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. ~ Jesus, Son of Man Son of God Does it produce the fruit of the Spirit and lead to holiness, or does it produce confusion, pride, or departure from the faith once for all delivered? Ask, is it submitted to the judgment of mature, filled with the Spirit brothers, who also hold the Word as final (see 1 Cor 14:29)? We do not “just run with it.” We do not treat brothers as mere echo chambers. We do not ask only “was that really you?” while ignoring the already-spoken Word. The Spirit and the Word always agree. Any “new development” that is wildly contrary to the apostolic gospel and the written Scriptures is not from the Holy Spirit, no matter how strongly someone feels it. The standard is not a personal certainty of an impression. The standard is the more-sure prophetic Word, examined carefully, tested by the body, and held fast only if it is good and true according to Scripture. Now, all of that said... Yes. God does reveal (manifest) Himself to us personally. So personal revelation and relationship are real. A believers life is not merely intellectual assent to a book; it is living fellowship with the living God through the Spirit. The same Spirit who speaks to our hearts is the Spirit who inspired the Scriptures. (see 2 Peter 1:21) "The written Word of God is the final, objective measure. see 2 Peter 1:19–21" You know of course that during the time of Peter, "the written Word of God" did not exist in the form you now use as the final standard, correct? The standard which you use did not come into being until well after Peter had been crucified. And those verses to which you refer are speaking about what the prophets said about the coming of the Messiah, and Peter was referencing the prophets as proof of who he claimed Jesus to be. He was also saying that those prophecies were not generated by those prophets, but had in fact come from the Holy Spirit. He was NOT referencing Scripture in general, and he was NOT saying that every man's understanding of Scripture is from God. History and the New Testament have shown that is false. If it were true, then the Pharisees, because of their "understanding" of accepted Scripture, had just a much of a theological standing in rejecting Jesus as Jesus had in claiming to be the Lamb of God come to take away the sins of the world. Before the New Testament came into being, early Christians were taught by the Apostles and early church fathers (men who were the disciples of the Apostles), and what they taught became the Tradition which has been foundational to the Faith. Paul wrote letters of instruction, as did Peter, John, James, Jude, etc., and these letters became part of the tradition and eventually ended up being considered canon. How did that happen? Men gathered together over years and discussed them at great length and prayerfully measured them against established Tradition and accepted faith. The writings did not magically coalesce into the New Testament out of the ether. All of this is to point out why I believe your "either or" premise stated at the start of the thread is based on a complete misunderstanding of the role of the Sacraments and Tradition in the lives of believers. Each Christian's relationship with God is very individual, and when we stand before Him (as we all must), we will either be found in Christ or not. Between now and that time, God has given us the Sacraments, Tradition, Scripture, prayer, the Magisterium, the writings of men such as Aquinas, Augustine, and even more down to earth writings from men such as Chesterton and Lewis, to see us safely home. The Sacrament of the Mass gives life. All of the others are there to help me avoid heresy. I encounter God in all of them, and that is why He gave them to us. It is a long road ahead for all of us. Why not make use of every tool and weapon against the enemy He has given us. |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Any claimed leading, impression, or “revelation” that contradicts the already-given Scripture is immediately ruled out. The Spirit who inspired the Word does not contradict the Word He inspired. --- First, does it agree with the clear teaching of Scripture? Does it exalt and confess Jesus Christ as He is revealed in Scripture? --- Any “new development” that is wildly contrary to the apostolic gospel and the written Scriptures is not from the Holy Spirit, no matter how strongly someone feels it. Dang man, you're almost there. That last sentence is very good. So when are you going to walk back the strange and "wildly contrary" teachings you hold to, like blaspheming the Eucharist or denying baptismal regeneration? |
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Originally Posted By brianm: ... So when are you going to walk back the strange and "wildly contrary" teachings you hold to, like blaspheming the Eucharist or denying baptismal regeneration? 
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History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which Trump is always right.
Modern life is one steep, perpetual tax on the mathematically impaired
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Does God give His Holy Spirit only to those who obey Him? Oh no no no no no...... After that absolute doozy you dropped (quoted in my last message), you've got some explaining to do... We know from Justin Martyr's Apologies that the early Church of the second century took real presence so seriously they were being accused of cannibalism by outside pagans. |
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Oh no no no no no...... After that absolute doozy you dropped (quoted in my last message), you've got some explaining to do... We know from Justin Martyr's Apologies that the early Church of the second century took real presence so seriously they were being accused of cannibalism by outside pagans. Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Originally Posted By Bishop3: Does God give His Holy Spirit only to those who obey Him? Oh no no no no no...... After that absolute doozy you dropped (quoted in my last message), you've got some explaining to do... We know from Justin Martyr's Apologies that the early Church of the second century took real presence so seriously they were being accused of cannibalism by outside pagans. Acts 5:32 “And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” ~ Peter the Lord's Apostle In context Peter is speaking to the Sanhedrin about the apostolic witness and the gift given to those who obey the gospel call. |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Acts 5:32 “And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” ~ Peter the Lord's Apostle In context Peter is speaking to the Sanhedrin about the apostolic witness and the gift given to those who obey the gospel call. That's about as relevant to what I quoted as a Presbyterian at a personality contest. |
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: That's about as relevant to what I quoted as a Presbyterian at a personality contest. Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Originally Posted By Bishop3: Acts 5:32 “And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” ~ Peter the Lord's Apostle In context Peter is speaking to the Sanhedrin about the apostolic witness and the gift given to those who obey the gospel call. That's about as relevant to what I quoted as a Presbyterian at a personality contest. I have no idea what you're going on about. Kind of funny, I guess. Sir, Maybe you haven't actually read the thread content, it is relevant to the Holy Spirit... He is the topic. The Holy Spirit is God. He was there when Jesus went to the cross and died for our sins and was buried. He was there when Jesus was raised from the dead on the third day. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"... ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle That Word is the testimony of the Holy Spirit... it is of first importance. Have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire by Jesus yet? He is the Baptizer of the Holy Spirit and fire. Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. Hebrews 12:29 ..."for our God is a consuming fire." We (believers) are to stay filled with His Spirit. Ephesians 5:17-18 "So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, ..." Jesus baptises in the Holy Spirit. I called on the name of the Lord and He saved me. I trust Him. 'The Word of God saved me, the Holy Spirit is my witness' and l love Him. I believe you Love the Lord too. Who can resist His Love. Have a good evening sir and be blessed in the name of the Lord! you are the body of Christ... |
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: https://media2.giphy.com/media/hIt0ZQdzXMjHW/200.webp?cid=8dc8958c8lolihbsl0jl5jtgg20v5z8m1pg5yxu5ef9srkch&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200.webp&ct=g Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: Originally Posted By monadh: The Presbyterian is not out of place, he was predestined to be there  https://media2.giphy.com/media/hIt0ZQdzXMjHW/200.webp?cid=8dc8958c8lolihbsl0jl5jtgg20v5z8m1pg5yxu5ef9srkch&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200.webp&ct=g You gotta appreciate a good Calvinist joke. I mean, we gotta get something of value out of this thread. |
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam: You gotta appreciate a good Calvinist joke. I mean, we gotta get something of value out of this thread. The only thing of any value is the WORD of the Living GOD throughout all that has been posted. Awaken because the time is near. |
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The Holy Spirit is the gift given to those who obey the gospel call through repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” Acts 5:29-32 But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.” The initial reception (how do we recieve anything from God) is tied to obedient response to the gospel. The ongoing filling and leading are also linked to yielding and obedience (see Ephesians 5:18) Galatians 5:16-18, 25 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. --- If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. The Spirit is not earned by works; He is given by grace through faith, yet He is given to those who turn to God in obedient faith, and He enables the life of obedience that follows. For those who are praying, mom is in a rehab (skilled nursing center) now. I'm thankful for the Lord who hears our prayers. Thank you. Still some more to go, I trust Him. The cross is behind me and the cross is before me. Love God, love people, shine, shine His Light Maranatha |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Thank you for the important question. Scripture itself gives the standard and the process. The written Word of God is the final, objective measure. see 2 Peter 1:19–21 Peter the Lord's Apostle says, “So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place… But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” --- Any claimed leading, impression, or “revelation” that contradicts the already-given Scripture is immediately ruled out. The Spirit who inspired the Word does not contradict the Word He inspired. We are commanded to test everything. Thessalonians 5:19–22 “Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.” ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle 1 John 4:1 “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” ~ John the Lord's Apostle 1 Corinthians 14:29 “Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.” ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle Even an angelic message is rejected if it contradicts the gospel already received. Galatians 1:8–9 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!” ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle Here are some practical applications for you when something is claimed as from the Holy Spirit: First, does it agree with the clear teaching of Scripture? Does it exalt and confess Jesus Christ as He is revealed in Scripture? 1 John 4:2-3 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. ~ John the Lord's Apostle John 16:13-14 ..."But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. ~ Jesus, Son of Man Son of God Does it produce the fruit of the Spirit and lead to holiness, or does it produce confusion, pride, or departure from the faith once for all delivered? Ask, is it submitted to the judgment of mature, filled with the Spirit brothers, who also hold the Word as final (see 1 Cor 14:29)? We do not “just run with it.” We do not treat brothers as mere echo chambers. We do not ask only “was that really you?” while ignoring the already-spoken Word. The Spirit and the Word always agree. Any “new development” that is wildly contrary to the apostolic gospel and the written Scriptures is not from the Holy Spirit, no matter how strongly someone feels it. The standard is not a personal certainty of an impression. The standard is the more-sure prophetic Word, examined carefully, tested by the body, and held fast only if it is good and true according to Scripture. Now, all of that said... Yes. God does reveal (manifest) Himself to us personally. So personal revelation and relationship are real. A believers life is not merely intellectual assent to a book; it is living fellowship with the living God through the Spirit. The same Spirit who speaks to our hearts is the Spirit who inspired the Scriptures. (see 2 Peter 1:21) ^^^This is why I come to fellowship here. To hear from those gifted to preach, prophesy, teach, and edify. By One SPIRIT, I see the unity in sharing of same scriptures led by the SPIRIT and the WORD. Thank you my brothers. GOD is wanting all who come to "hear" and "hear" His Son's words. Hear Him. |
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A believers relationship with God is through His Holy Spirit and the regenerated (born-again) heart by faith. God is love. 1 John 4:8 NASB1995  The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. https://bible.com/bible/100/1jn.4.8.NASB1995 That love is poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. The grace (gift) of God. Romans 5:5 NASB1995 [5] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.5.5.NASB1995 The new birth is the Spirit’s work; that ongoing relationship is Spirit-to-spirit communion. Believers relate to the Father through the Son by the indwelling Spirit in a heart made alive by faith. The Spirit Himself bears witness that we are His children, He leads us as sons, He intercedes for us according to the Father’s will, and conforms us to the image of Christ. 'Christ in you, the hope of Glory'. Thank God for His Holy Spriit. Galatians 5:24-25 NASB1995 [24] Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [25] If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. https://bible.com/bible/100/gal.5.24-25.NASB1995 John 6:63 NASB1995 [63] It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.6.63.NASB1995 Today. I'm praying in the name of Jesus, through the Spirit to my Father. Thank you, Jesus for your precious Holy Spirit. |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS
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A believers relationship with God is through His Holy Spirit and the regenerated (born-again) heart by faith. God is love. 1 John 4:8 NASB1995 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. https://bible.com/bible/100/1jn.4.8.NASB1995 That love is poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. The grace (gift) of God. Romans 5:5 NASB1995 [5] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.5.5.NASB1995 The new birth is the Spirit’s work; that ongoing relationship is Spirit-to-spirit communion. Believers relate to the Father through the Son by the indwelling Spirit in a heart made alive by faith. The Spirit Himself bears witness that we are His children, He leads us as sons, He intercedes for us according to the Father’s will, and conforms us to the image of Christ. 'Christ in you, the hope of Glory'. Thank God for His Holy Spriit. Galatians 5:24-25 NASB1995 [24] Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [25] If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. https://bible.com/bible/100/gal.5.24-25.NASB1995 John 6:63 NASB1995 [63] It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.6.63.NASB1995 Today. I'm praying in the name of Jesus, through the Spirit to my Father. Thank you, Jesus for your precious Holy Spirit. Eta: double portion
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The ekklēsia (ἐκκλησία) needs the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13 NASB1995 [13] Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.15.13.NASB1995 Every born-again believer and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ are the 'ekklēsia' (Church). Matthew 18:19-20 NASB1995 [19] “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. [20] For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.” https://bible.com/bible/100/mat.18.19-20.NASB1995 ~ Jesus, the Son of Man Son of God |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: The ekklēsia (ἐκκλησία) needs the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13 NASB1995 [13] Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.15.13.NASB1995 Every born-again believer and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ are the 'ekklēsia' (Church). Matthew 18:19-20 NASB1995 [19] “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. [20] For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.” https://bible.com/bible/100/mat.18.19-20.NASB1995 ~ Jesus, the Son of Man Son of God I truly think you have no idea what Catholics believe, even after all that has been discussed here. Or you are knowingly spreading calumny against the Church. |
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Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: …Or you are knowingly spreading calumny against the Church. Originally Posted By Gullskjegg: Originally Posted By Bishop3: The ekklēsia (ἐκκλησία) needs the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13 NASB1995 [13] Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.15.13.NASB1995 Every born-again believer and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ are the 'ekklēsia' (Church). Matthew 18:19-20 NASB1995 [19] “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. [20] For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.” https://bible.com/bible/100/mat.18.19-20.NASB1995 ~ Jesus, the Son of Man Son of God …Or you are knowingly spreading calumny against the Church. Even calumny can be part of a tradition of belief. As a Baptist raised in church in the hills of North Georgia, we did not look down on Catholics because we knew very few. Everyone was of Scots Irish ancestry, but we did not retain the animosity of our ancestors. We respected Catholic belief in theory and accepted them as Christians. We liked the Catholics we did know more than the Presbyterians. The few Catholics we knew were nicer and more kind. |
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Does the Holy Spirit’s internal witness and leading belong directly to every born-again believer by faith and obedience to the gospel, or must it be mediated through hierarchical sacraments and tradition? The witness and leading of the Holy Spirit is for every born-again believer; He is the indwelling presence of God. He gives them assurance, and guidance for living out God’s will and purpose. Psalms 37:23-24 NASB1995 [23] The steps of a man are established by the LORD, And He delights in his way. [24] When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the LORD is the One who holds his hand. https://bible.com/bible/100/psa.37.23-24.NASB1995 ~ A Psalm of David Romans 8:9-17 NASB1995 [9] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. [10] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. [12] So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— [13] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [14] For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [15] For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” [16] The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, [17] and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.8.9-17.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle Every born-again believer and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ has the witness of the Holy Spirit indwelling them. He is alive. (see John 6:63) Jesus is the baptizer in (with) the Holy Spirit and fire. John 3:7-8 NASB1995 [7] Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.3.7-8.NASB1995 ~ Jesus the Son of Man John 4:24 NASB1995 [24] God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.4.24.NASB1995 ~ Jesus the Son of God Galatians 5:25 NASB1995 [25] If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. https://bible.com/bible/100/gal.5.25.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle 1 Corinthians 16:21-24 NASB1995 [21] The greeting is in my own hand—Paul. [22] If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. Maranatha. [23] The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. [24] My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen. https://bible.com/bible/100/1co.16.21-24.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'. |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Does the Holy Spirit’s internal witness and leading belong directly to every born-again believer by faith and obedience to the gospel, or must it be mediated through hierarchical sacraments and tradition? The witness and leading of the Holy Spirit is for every born-again believer; He is the indwelling presence of God. He gives them assurance, and guidance for living out God’s will and purpose. Psalms 37:23-24 NASB1995 [23] The steps of a man are established by the LORD, And He delights in his way. [24] When he falls, he will not be hurled headlong, Because the LORD is the One who holds his hand. https://bible.com/bible/100/psa.37.23-24.NASB1995 ~ A Psalm of David Romans 8:9-17 NASB1995 [9] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. [10] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. [12] So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— [13] for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [14] For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [15] For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” [16] The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, [17] and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.8.9-17.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle Every born-again believer and follower of the Lord Jesus Christ has the witness of the Holy Spirit indwelling them. He is alive. (see John 6:63) Jesus is the baptizer in (with) the Holy Spirit and fire. John 3:7-8 NASB1995 [7] Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.3.7-8.NASB1995 ~ Jesus the Son of Man John 4:24 NASB1995 [24] God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” https://bible.com/bible/100/jhn.4.24.NASB1995 ~ Jesus the Son of God Galatians 5:25 NASB1995 [25] If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. https://bible.com/bible/100/gal.5.25.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle 1 Corinthians 16:21-24 NASB1995 [21] The greeting is in my own hand—Paul. [22] If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. Maranatha. [23] The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. [24] My love be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen. https://bible.com/bible/100/1co.16.21-24.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'. What do you mean by your question of mediation? What are hierarchical sacraments? Which traditions? |
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What makes the green grass grow?
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Does the Holy Spirit’s internal witness and leading belong directly to every born-again believer by faith and obedience to the gospel, or must it be mediated through hierarchical sacraments and tradition? Again showing you have no understanding of sacraments and tradition. It would be much more to the point for you to say that you have no need of anything other than what you believe to be "the Holy Spirit's inner witness". Personally I would be content to let you go on your merry way, but you creating new threads just to rehash your same arguments are not good uses of the Internet's 1s and 0s. If you just wanted to praise God for what He has done in your life through Jesus Christ, most people here would join in. Where you lose people is when you start attacking things which are obviously beyond you in order to justify that you have no interest in increasing your understanding. When you do that, it becomes clear that you are simply here to strut and divide, not converse with other Christians. |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: The gift of the Holy Spirit. He has not left me. 'The Holy Spirit is my witness'. Thank you, Lord. You are Faithful and True. Love God, love people, shine, shine His Light Maranatha Thank you for clarifying that you need nothing more than the inner voice that is speaking to you. That is what I had asked of you, and it fully explains why you have taken some positions, as vague and undefined as they are. |
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But what does it say? John 3:3 ESV [3] Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.3.3.ESV ~ Jesus, Son of Man Son of God 1 Peter 1:3-5 ESV [3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, [4]to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, [5] who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. https://bible.com/bible/59/1pe.1.3-5.ESV ~ Peter the Lord's Apostle 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ESV [14] The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. [15] The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. [16] “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.2.14-16.ESV ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle Romans 8:16 ESV [16] The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,... https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.8.16.ESV ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle Romans 8:31-32 ESV [31] What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? [32] He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.8.31-32.ESV ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle Romans 10:16-17 NASB1995 [16] However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” [17] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.10.16-17.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle 1 John 4:4 ESV [4] Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.4.4.ESV ~ John the Lord's Apostle God isn't against us, He is for us! The greater One lives in me. 2 Corinthians 13:5-6 ESV [5] Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! [6] I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.13.5-6.ESV ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS