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Every time I turn on the TV they are playing the tape of this. From the footage it looks like the guys were looking for a fight, with the cops and weren't really trying to escape if they wanted to don't you think they could have gotton out?
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MO, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 11:55:09 AM EDT
They were pretty well stuck there. A quick deliberate movement from the scene may have gotten them some temporary seperation from the cops, but with choppers in the sky they would have had a lot of trouble getting a clean gettaway.
JMFO
Shawn
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Posted: 2/13/2002 11:57:30 AM EDT
couldn't they just shoot an area out and drive thru , I guess there was alot of cops there though.
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Posted: 2/13/2002 12:00:37 PM EDT
I think the fighting would have just gotten more dirty IE: LEO's ramming bad guys with vehicles that sort of thing with all the coverage there was no way they were going to let thoose two get away.....
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Posted: 2/13/2002 2:56:46 PM EDT
Didn't the cops have any slugs I think that would have slowed the guys down right?
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 3:46:18 PM EDT
LAPD only switched to slugs and a limited amount of AR-15's after this shootout. The dept was too politically correct for it's own good. It took a good ass kicking to change their views. All they had was 00 buck and 9mm's. Neither penetrated their body armor. The bank robbers on the other hand, were able to shoot the cops through their cover with ease.
Both bank robbers loved the movie "Heat" and watched it over and over again to the point of obsession. There is a lot of speculation that they forced the shoot out with the police. Both used a lot of drugs and body building drugs. Who knows what was really going through their minds in those first few minutes. The LAPD stated that had they left in the beginning, after all of the on scene cops were shot up and disabled, they would've got away.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 3:46:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Didn't the cops have any slugs I think that would have slowed the guys down right? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 3:50:34 PM EDT
What happened was Panic and lacking the ability to make decisions under stress.
GG
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Posted: 2/13/2002 3:53:34 PM EDT
Problems:
- They had good guns and plenty of ammo, but a lousy plan and lousier tactics.
- They were wearing body armor head-to-toe, which considerably restricted their movement.
- They had too few people.
-Troy
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OH, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 3:57:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 3:59:49 PM EDT by Sukebe]
No matter how you look at it the bad guys lost. Yes they inflicted a lot of damage but they still lost. They lost because cops who were under trained, poorly equipped and way out gunned stood their ground. Those guys showed a commitment to duty and great big balls in the process.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 4:32:42 PM EDT
the leo's had to go to a sporting goods store to get some firepower?
that must be why kali says only leo's should have unrestrained firepower, not citizens.
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Posted: 2/13/2002 5:22:22 PM EDT
Would 223's or slugs go thru the armor that the badguys were wearing? and did both the bad guys have AK's one of the rifles looked different than a AK it had a dual drum magazine on it.
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Posted: 2/13/2002 5:47:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 5:49:09 PM EDT by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By Troy:
Problems:
- They had good guns and plenty of ammo, but a lousy plan and lousier tactics.
- They were wearing body armor head-to-toe, which considerably restricted their movement.
- They had too few people.
-Troy |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 5:51:25 PM EDT
How many people died in this incident?
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Posted: 2/13/2002 5:55:51 PM EDT
Ironic, now if the cops tried to go to the sporting goods stores to get AR's, there wouldn't be any, nor FAL's or even certian pistols.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 6:01:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Energizer:
How many people died in this incident?
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 6:07:13 PM EDT
That same gun shop is now unable to sell even handguns. Why ? Becuase they couldn't get the proper locks before the new law took effect, becuase Kali. took forever to put out a list. Great way to thank them. Huh ?
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USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 7:01:54 PM EDT
Just for shits and giggles.
If this happened in you hood.
What would you do?
Would you join in?
Hide?
supply the cops?
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Posted: 2/13/2002 7:31:08 PM EDT
Yeah thats B&B guns that helped the cops out, If it was happening in my neighborhood I would be very tempted to go on my roof and pick off a couple robbers with the 223 but it I did I would probebly get shot by the cops or Charged with some sort of stupid crime.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 7:50:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 7:51:22 PM EDT by Redmanfms]
Originally Posted By akira:
Just for shits and giggles.
If this happened in you hood.
What would you do?
Would you join in?
Hide?
supply the cops?
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 7:53:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 7:54:53 PM EDT by 240z]
I too have been seeing this shootout more and more for the past year or so, although it disappearwed after 9/11 for a bit.
This was 1996 (I think) for God's sake, it's VERY old news. When I started seeing it, I knew that the left wing media was up to something. The other shoe has yet to drop, but there is no real newsworthy reason to run this old footage over and over and over unless someone has an agenda and a plan.
My guess is that there have not been any recent school/sensational shootings to prop up the Brady Bunch and the Million Morons, so this is just filler to keep the issue simmering until the next one.
Last summer, it was on on my father-in-law's place and we ended up in a huge fight over it. Even though he is a pretty bright guy (Master's degree and more) and not a bad guy at all, he swallows the bait like a catfish sucking up bacon. He watched the shootout thinking it was a recent event, and then proceeded to tell me about how easy it is to obtain legal full auto firearms, and that the police are just outgunned by the bad guys.
Right, in the PRK one just waltzes into the local gunshop and walks out with an M16.....
His brother was a career railroad Police Officer and even they could not get the state to give the department a permit for a full auto firearm as far back as 1963! They never got a permit.
No matter what I told him, he did not believe me. He got really mad when I told him he was simply ignorant of the law and the facts....
The footage is really an effective tool in brainwashing the ignorant sheeple.
Ray
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NV, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 8:40:51 PM EDT
Helping the police out in this situation would have been futile. 1. they would say we don't need it and 2. you would likely get shot by one of them because you are not wearing the uniform.
The 2 gunmen were looking for a fight and got it, the cops lost. Yes the 2 robbers were killed but not before they did a lot of damage. The cops (LAPD) has a history of killing the wrong people and not allowing the people to help out. Yet their cheif of police screams for more guncontrol, more laws with the statement so it wont happen again. Yea right!!
By contrast in 1962 ( its close and i did not find the story on the net, but the story has been on the history channel)a gunman who shot 7 people from a tower at a college in texas was pinned down by people with rifles so the police could get up the tower and take him out. It was reported he had committed suicide when they found him.
There are other many other reports of people getting involved when they didn't really need to but it was not in LA. I kind of bet that they would charge you with something if you tried to help. Thats LA for you.
California will choke itself on its own restrictions but not before it bankrupts the taxpayers and runs them out of the state.
As for me I don't live there anymore.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 10:08:53 PM EDT
Depends...If you are talking about NW Florida, Southern Alabama, Souther Mississippi, or Louisiana outside New Orleans then I would shoot the Bad Guys. Of course, they'd probably have been killed already since most of the people around here (Pensacola) are gun owners. Hell, my college professors are Gun Owners.
If it was South Florida, Georgia, or New Orleans I'd let the Police Handle it. If they were outgunned, I'd loan them some of mine. But, in these areas I suspect the PD has all the firepower they need.
If it was Maryland, D.C., New Jersey, New York, Massachutsetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Deleware, Ohio, Illinois, Wisconson, Iowa, Minnesotta, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, California, or any other Anti-Gun state, I'd turn tail and run. Why risk my ass by helping if it'll only get me a long jail stay for hurting a criminal.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2002 10:16:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 10:34:10 PM EDT by Redmanfms]
Originally Posted By longun45:
By contrast in 1962 ( its close and i did not find the story on the net, but the story has been on the history channel)a gunman who shot 7 people from a tower at a college in texas was pinned down by people with rifles so the police could get up the tower and take him out. It was reported he had committed suicide when they found him.
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WA, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 12:43:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Originally Posted By longun45:
By contrast in 1962 ( its close and i did not find the story on the net, but the story has been on the history channel)a gunman who shot 7 people from a tower at a college in texas was pinned down by people with rifles so the police could get up the tower and take him out. It was reported he had committed suicide when they found him. As more victims fell, police officers made their various ways to the Tower. Austin Police Officers Jerry Day, Houston McCoy, and Ramiro Martinez, Department of Public Safety Officer W.A. Cowan, civilian Allen Crum and others converged on the 27th floor. They cleared the floor and brought down Mary and Mike Gabour, who had lain critically wounded in a deep pool of blood for over an hour. Martinez and Crum moved carefully up the steps and into the reception area. McCoy and Day soon followed. There was no definite plan of action; each man had to improvise as the situation developed. From inside the reception area, they could cover windows on the south, southwest, and west sides of the Tower. Martinez tried the door to the observation deck, but found it had been wedged shut. He kicked the door until the dolly fell away, freeing the door. The men waited and watched the windows.
Ramirez emerged onto the deck, and began crawling toward the northwest corner, where the shots seemed to be coming from. McCoy followed, while Crum and Day guarded the door. As Charlie tried to change position, Crum misfired his gun, sending him back to the northwest corner. There he sat with his back against the north wall, aiming his carbine toward the south, from whence Crum’s shot had come. Martinez and McCoy continued their slow crawl, friendly fire from the ground zinging around them. When Martinez reached the northeast corner, he rounded it and began firing his .38. Charlie tried to return fire but could not bring his weapon around in time. McCoy fired his shotgun twice at Charlie’s head, knocking him to the floor. Martinez then grabbed McCoy’s gun and ran toward Charlie’s twitching body, firing into it point blank. At 1:24 p.m. Charlie was dead. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 12:49:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By longun45:
The 2 gunmen were looking for a fight and got it, the cops lost. Yes the 2 robbers were killed but not before they did a lot of damage. The cops (LAPD) has a history of killing the wrong people and not allowing the people to help out.
still readin' the LA Times aren't ya! |
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Posted: 2/14/2002 12:58:25 AM EDT
What finally killed the two back robbers?
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TN, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 12:58:58 AM EDT
The only "damage" was to the cop cars.LOL
If the bad guys were REALLY serious there
woulda been ALOT of dead cops.ALOT.Sure they woulda STILL got wasted,when they ran outa ammo.
LUCKY are the cops that the baddies were lousy
shots.Flame on
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Posted: 2/14/2002 3:04:40 AM EDT
Its on all the time?
Where are they (who are they) replaying or talking about this? and WHY? hmmm.
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USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 4:49:36 AM EDT
The 2 gunmen were looking for a fight and got it, the cops lost. |
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Posted: 2/14/2002 5:40:42 AM EDT
The LEOs were outgunned, at least at the start of the fight. The City of Los Angeles was and is way too PC...but they never figured this kind of thing would happen. They don't want to be seen as overly paramilitaristic, so they opted for the softest street profile. Before this event, imagine how the liberal media would have handled the knowledge that the LAPD was carrying M-16s in the trunks of their cruisers, as some now are? The coppers would have been crucified by the lefty looneys! Remember, they had a field day blistering the cops after the fight was over because they didn't get an ambulance to the location of the second robber, who had been wounded and was bleeding out. Personally, I hope they did take their time on purpose. Tough shit, I say. Let the SOB bleed out...then the taxpayers make out...and the lawyers lose out.
The POS robbers were dressed out to the max. As has already been stated here, nothing the LEOs came to the gunfight with would penetrate the baddies' body armor...and it would appear that the LEOs were unable to get close enough for a head shot without exposing themselves to devestating automatic fire.
Very fortunately, no one was killed but the perps.
I have seen the video several times too. Each time, I am more convinced that had that PD been less PC, and had at least one supervisor had an M-16 with green tips or even better, an M-14/M-1A, the fight would have been over quickly.
I have one question: I have heard that at some point in the fight, the LEOs did go to B&Bs gunstore for more firepower. Is that true? What did they get? If it was high power rifles, why did they not end the fight sooner...or was that near the end anyway, as the SWAT was arriving with their toys?
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TN, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 6:08:19 AM EDT
I have one question: I have heard that at some point in the fight, the LEOs did go to B&Bs gunstore for more firepower. Is that true? What did they get? If it was high power rifles, why did they not end the fight sooner...or was that near the end anyway, as the SWAT was arriving with their toys?
Yes it is true.
AR-15's & other high end stuff
Near the end anyway
(read my 1st response to this thread)
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NC, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 6:14:35 AM EDT
Instead of playing footage of the Hollywood bank robbery over and over, perhaps the press should broadcast some tapes of ATF agents raiding innocent people's homes. After destroying the house the idiot blonde newscaster could say "But they didn't find anything. When will these civil rights violations stop (for the children)?"
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TN, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 6:21:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Schnert:
Instead of playing footage of the Hollywood bank robbery over and over, perhaps the press should broadcast some tapes of ATF agents raiding innocent people's homes. After destroying the house the idiot blonde newscaster could say "But they didn't find anything. When will these civil rights violations stop (for the children)?"
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Posted: 2/14/2002 8:41:23 AM EDT
Yeah they want to B&B to get some shotguns with slugs and some AR's. the bigest weapon LA pd had was 9mm's
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 9:26:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Yeah they want to B&B to get some shotguns with slugs and some AR's. the bigest weapon LA pd had was 9mm's |
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Posted: 2/14/2002 3:49:05 PM EDT
A typical Kevlar bulletproof vest, the kind issued to police officers, can stop small-arms fire.
But it can't stop a knife or large-caliber bullets. When Ceradyne's lightweight boron
carbide-based armor plates are added to the vest, slipped into pockets in front and back, the vest
becomes truly bulletproof - capable of withstanding a hit from a .50-caliber gun at close range.
The cost? Around $1,000 a vest.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 4:57:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SomeGuyInAHat:
B & B loaned them AR-15 rifles, magazines, and ammo, none of which made it into the fight. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 5:04:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARndog:
I thought that the second bad guy died in a firefight when four cops rolled up in a cruiser and opened fire with the AR-15's that they borrowed? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 5:23:49 PM EDT
Those were SWAT cops with their department issued weapons. posted by schapman43
What finally killed the two back robbers? |
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Posted: 2/14/2002 11:03:32 PM EDT
The AR's the cops borrowed from B&B were later auctioned off at the Soldier of Fortune convention in Las Vegas. Troy, I agree with you. It looked like their Plan B was "f*** it, let's get the ultimate adrenalin rush".
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WA, USA
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Posted: 2/14/2002 11:34:27 PM EDT
Ehhh,
Like I have said before (and been flamed for it) it was just like Reginald Denny:
The 4 cops in the car that rolled up to the scene should of rammed the two bad guys with their car. End of shootout, two bad guys pinned to the hood of their car. Don't go off about "getting shot at" to me, they were what, within 20 feet of those bad guys.
I'll bet that a car weighing a couple of tons with 40 mph of forward momentum will beat out any bullet proof vest anytime.
Reginald Denny? If I were in an 18 wheeler loaded with a couple of tons of rocks and I had a mob of people coming at me I would have put that som'bitch in low granny gear and drove over anyone in my way.
Good ole "Football" gold teefusus Williams would have been "flat, deflated and dead" Football Williams.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 2/15/2002 12:21:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Would 223's or slugs go thru the armor that the badguys were wearing? and did both the bad guys have AK's one of the rifles looked different than a AK it had a dual drum magazine on it. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/15/2002 1:21:41 AM EDT
There is footage of one of the bank robbers shooting his select fire G-3. He did a lot of damage with it, one cop is trying to sue HK for his injuries. I think it hit him in ass and it shattered his pelvis.
If I remember correctly, the G-3 was put out of action by a 9mm striking the receiver and jamming the action. He then grabbed another AK with 70 drum and continued spraying the neighborhood.
The official story, the first bandit was shot in the head as he put the gun to his own head. A simultaneous hit from the swat team and suicide.
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TN, USA
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Posted: 2/15/2002 10:41:41 AM EDT
Seems at the time both the cops AND the baddies
were ate up with a case of the dumbass
baddies were stupid to stand and fight
the cops freaked when a couple of baddies
retaliated with superior firepower
1 baddie was WITHIN 20ft of cops w/fullmatic,full body armor,cops only had pistols and birdshot and he STILL couldn't take out the cops
bad aim from baddies was the main thing that saved the cops from getting wasted EARLY on
in the fight.had thier(baddies)aim been true,
they MIGHT have escaped.And with fullmatics
like they had,droppin that chopper woulda been easy(gotta get rid of air support quickly, don'tcha know)!possibility of escape would have increased dramaticly.
cops got REAL lucky
(I bet this'll fire ya'lls cops egos up i'm sure,BUT it's just a fact that can be seen
on video)
(I like cops so don't get all pissy cause someone ruffles ya'lls feathers OK?)
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