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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 2/13/2002 11:22:16 AM EDT
Every time I turn on the TV they are playing the tape of this. From the footage it looks like the guys were looking for a fight, with the cops and weren't really trying to escape if they wanted to don't you think they could have gotton out?
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 11:55:09 AM EDT
They were pretty well stuck there. A quick deliberate movement from the scene may have gotten them some temporary seperation from the cops, but with choppers in the sky they would have had a lot of trouble getting a clean gettaway. JMFO Shawn
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 11:57:30 AM EDT
couldn't they just shoot an area out and drive thru , I guess there was alot of cops there though.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 12:00:37 PM EDT
I think the fighting would have just gotten more dirty IE: LEO's ramming bad guys with vehicles that sort of thing with all the coverage there was no way they were going to let thoose two get away.....
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 2:56:46 PM EDT
Didn't the cops have any slugs I think that would have slowed the guys down right?
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 3:46:18 PM EDT
LAPD only switched to slugs and a limited amount of AR-15's after this shootout. The dept was too politically correct for it's own good. It took a good ass kicking to change their views. All they had was 00 buck and 9mm's. Neither penetrated their body armor. The bank robbers on the other hand, were able to shoot the cops through their cover with ease. Both bank robbers loved the movie "Heat" and watched it over and over again to the point of obsession. There is a lot of speculation that they forced the shoot out with the police. Both used a lot of drugs and body building drugs. Who knows what was really going through their minds in those first few minutes. The LAPD stated that had they left in the beginning, after all of the on scene cops were shot up and disabled, they would've got away.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 3:46:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911greg: Didn't the cops have any slugs I think that would have slowed the guys down right?
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The North Hollywood Shootout was the epitomy of a police department being caught under prepared and under trained. My understanding is that prior the North Hollywood Shootout, LAPD officers were only authorized for buckshot in their shotguns. Only tactical units were authorized for patrol riots, and [i]handgun marksmanship was never tested further than 15 yards[/i]. So, no. No slugs, no rifles, and inadequate training.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 3:50:34 PM EDT
What happened was Panic and lacking the ability to make decisions under stress. GG
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 3:53:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 3:57:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 3:59:49 PM EDT by Sukebe]
No matter how you look at it the bad guys lost. Yes they inflicted a lot of damage but they still lost. They lost because cops who were under trained, poorly equipped and way out gunned stood their ground. Those guys showed a commitment to duty and great big balls in the process.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 4:32:42 PM EDT
the leo's had to go to a sporting goods store to get some firepower? that must be why kali says only leo's should have unrestrained firepower, not citizens.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 5:22:22 PM EDT
Would 223's or slugs go thru the armor that the badguys were wearing? and did both the bad guys have AK's one of the rifles looked different than a AK it had a dual drum magazine on it.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 5:47:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 5:49:09 PM EDT by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By Troy: Problems: - They had good guns and plenty of ammo, but a lousy plan and lousier tactics. - They were wearing body armor head-to-toe, which considerably restricted their movement. - They had too few people. -Troy
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Sounds like you were pulling for the bad guys. Assholes like these two just put more pressure on us. I have no problem with them letting the second SOB bleed to death while the EMT's took care of wounded cops and non-LEO's first.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 5:51:25 PM EDT
How many people died in this incident?
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 5:55:51 PM EDT
Ironic, now if the cops tried to go to the sporting goods stores to get AR's, there wouldn't be any, nor FAL's or even certian pistols.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 6:01:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Energizer: How many people died in this incident?
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Just the two POS bank robbers.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 6:07:13 PM EDT
That same gun shop is now unable to sell even handguns. Why ? Becuase they couldn't get the proper locks before the new law took effect, becuase Kali. took forever to put out a list. Great way to thank them. Huh ?
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 7:01:54 PM EDT
Just for shits and giggles. If this happened in you hood. What would you do? Would you join in? Hide? supply the cops?
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 7:31:08 PM EDT
Yeah thats B&B guns that helped the cops out, If it was happening in my neighborhood I would be very tempted to go on my roof and pick off a couple robbers with the 223 but it I did I would probebly get shot by the cops or Charged with some sort of stupid crime.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 7:50:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 7:51:22 PM EDT by Redmanfms]
Originally Posted By akira: Just for shits and giggles. If this happened in you hood. What would you do? Would you join in? Hide? supply the cops?
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1. Joining in is a really good way to get shot by the po-po, so I wouldn't do that. Even if I didn't get mistaken for a bad guy by the police, I'd probably get sued by the families of the "victims" or any bystanders that got hit with ricochets, errant rounds, or fragments. If you can run away, that is always the sound legal and biological thing to do. You are less likely to get hurt and/or sued/prosecuted 2. Sounds like a reasonable suggestion. 3. The police in my area have more than enough hardware, they wouldn't need my shit and they wouldn't get any of it.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 7:53:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 7:54:53 PM EDT by 240z]
I too have been seeing this shootout more and more for the past year or so, although it disappearwed after 9/11 for a bit. This was 1996 (I think) for God's sake, it's VERY old news. When I started seeing it, I knew that the left wing media was up to something. The other shoe has yet to drop, but there is no real newsworthy reason to run this old footage over and over and over unless someone has an agenda and a plan. My guess is that there have not been any recent school/sensational shootings to prop up the Brady Bunch and the Million Morons, so this is just filler to keep the issue simmering until the next one. Last summer, it was on on my father-in-law's place and we ended up in a huge fight over it. Even though he is a pretty bright guy (Master's degree and more) and not a bad guy at all, he swallows the bait like a catfish sucking up bacon. He watched the shootout thinking it was a recent event, and then proceeded to tell me about how easy it is to obtain legal full auto firearms, and that the police are just outgunned by the bad guys. Right, in the PRK one just waltzes into the local gunshop and walks out with an M16..... His brother was a career railroad Police Officer and even they could not get the state to give the department a permit for a full auto firearm as far back as 1963! They never got a permit. No matter what I told him, he did not believe me. He got really mad when I told him he was simply ignorant of the law and the facts.... The footage is really an effective tool in brainwashing the ignorant sheeple. Ray
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 8:40:51 PM EDT
Helping the police out in this situation would have been futile. 1. they would say we don't need it and 2. you would likely get shot by one of them because you are not wearing the uniform. The 2 gunmen were looking for a fight and got it, the cops lost. Yes the 2 robbers were killed but not before they did a lot of damage. The cops (LAPD) has a history of killing the wrong people and not allowing the people to help out. Yet their cheif of police screams for more guncontrol, more laws with the statement so it wont happen again. Yea right!! By contrast in 1962 ( its close and i did not find the story on the net, but the story has been on the history channel)a gunman who shot 7 people from a tower at a college in texas was pinned down by people with rifles so the police could get up the tower and take him out. It was reported he had committed suicide when they found him. There are other many other reports of people getting involved when they didn't really need to but it was not in LA. I kind of bet that they would charge you with something if you tried to help. Thats LA for you. California will choke itself on its own restrictions but not before it bankrupts the taxpayers and runs them out of the state. As for me I don't live there anymore.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 10:08:53 PM EDT
Depends...If you are talking about NW Florida, Southern Alabama, Souther Mississippi, or Louisiana outside New Orleans then I would shoot the Bad Guys. Of course, they'd probably have been killed already since most of the people around here (Pensacola) are gun owners. Hell, my college professors are Gun Owners. If it was South Florida, Georgia, or New Orleans I'd let the Police Handle it. If they were outgunned, I'd loan them some of mine. But, in these areas I suspect the PD has all the firepower they need. If it was Maryland, D.C., New Jersey, New York, Massachutsetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Deleware, Ohio, Illinois, Wisconson, Iowa, Minnesotta, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, California, or any other Anti-Gun state, I'd turn tail and run. Why risk my ass by helping if it'll only get me a long jail stay for hurting a criminal.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 10:16:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 10:34:10 PM EDT by Redmanfms]
Originally Posted By longun45: By contrast in 1962 ( its close and i did not find the story on the net, but the story has been on the history channel)a gunman who shot 7 people from a tower at a college in texas was pinned down by people with rifles so the police could get up the tower and take him out. It was reported he had committed suicide when they found him.
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You are thinking of Charles Whitman. It happened in 1966 in Austin, TX from the University of Texas clock tower observation deck. He killed 14 people not 7 and wounded many more. He didn't commit suicide, he was shot to death by the two officers who made it to the observation deck. They emptied a revolver and a shotgun into him at close range. The "kindly" citizens may or may not have been any assistance because Whitman continued firing and was able to kill several other people even after they started pouring fire onto the building. It is argueable either way though. However, I'm sure the officers who had to go up there to kill him didn't appreciate being shot at by every Tom, Dick, and Harry who had a rifle. [url]http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial/whitman/[/url]
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 12:43:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Originally Posted By longun45: By contrast in 1962 ( its close and i did not find the story on the net, but the story has been on the history channel)a gunman who shot 7 people from a tower at a college in texas was pinned down by people with rifles so the police could get up the tower and take him out. It was reported he had committed suicide when they found him.
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You are thinking of Charles Whitman. It happened in 1966 in Austin, TX from the University of Texas clock tower observation deck. He killed 14 people not 7 and wounded many more. He didn't commit suicide, he was shot to death by the two officers who made it to the observation deck. They emptied a revolver and a shotgun into him at close range. The "kindly" citizens may or may not have been any assistance because Whitman continued firing and was able to kill several other people even after they started pouring fire onto the building. It is argueable either way though. However, I'm sure the officers who had to go up there to kill him didn't appreciate being shot at by every Tom, Dick, and Harry who had a rifle. [url]http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial/whitman/[/url]
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To quote the site:
As more victims fell, police officers made their various ways to the Tower. Austin Police Officers Jerry Day, Houston McCoy, and Ramiro Martinez, Department of Public Safety Officer W.A. Cowan, civilian Allen Crum and others converged on the 27th floor. They cleared the floor and brought down Mary and Mike Gabour, who had lain critically wounded in a deep pool of blood for over an hour. Martinez and Crum moved carefully up the steps and into the reception area. McCoy and Day soon followed. There was no definite plan of action; each man had to improvise as the situation developed. From inside the reception area, they could cover windows on the south, southwest, and west sides of the Tower. Martinez tried the door to the observation deck, but found it had been wedged shut. He kicked the door until the dolly fell away, freeing the door. The men waited and watched the windows. Ramirez emerged onto the deck, and began crawling toward the northwest corner, where the shots seemed to be coming from. McCoy followed, while Crum and Day guarded the door. As Charlie tried to change position, Crum misfired his gun, sending him back to the northwest corner. There he sat with his back against the north wall, aiming his carbine toward the south, from whence Crum’s shot had come. Martinez and McCoy continued their slow crawl, friendly fire from the ground zinging around them. When Martinez reached the northeast corner, he rounded it and began firing his .38. Charlie tried to return fire but could not bring his weapon around in time. McCoy fired his shotgun twice at Charlie’s head, knocking him to the floor. Martinez then grabbed McCoy’s gun and ran toward Charlie’s twitching body, firing into it point blank. At 1:24 p.m. Charlie was dead.
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Just giving recognition where it's due, including to a civilian named Allen Crum, who went all the way to the top and even tried to fire at Whitman.
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 12:49:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By longun45: The 2 gunmen were looking for a fight and got it, the cops lost. Yes the 2 robbers were killed but not before they did a lot of damage. The cops (LAPD) has a history of killing the wrong people and not allowing the people to help out. still readin' the LA Times aren't ya!
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 12:58:25 AM EDT
What finally killed the two back robbers?
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 12:58:58 AM EDT
The only "damage" was to the cop cars.LOL If the bad guys were REALLY serious there woulda been ALOT of dead cops.ALOT.Sure they woulda STILL got wasted,when they ran outa ammo. LUCKY are the cops that the baddies were lousy shots.Flame on
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 3:04:40 AM EDT
Its on all the time? Where are they (who are they) replaying or talking about this? and WHY? hmmm.
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 4:49:36 AM EDT
The 2 gunmen were looking for a fight and got it, the cops lost.
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Where's that BS icon when you need it? [:(!] The bad guys "won" only in the sense that they got what they wanted, which was to act out their little fantasy and go down in a blaze of gunfire. But look at what the cops' goals were: 1) Protect the public 2) Capture or kill the bad guys 3) Survive Since they managed to accomplish #2 without any bystanders or police officers being killed, how is that [b]not[/b] a "win" for the police?
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 5:40:42 AM EDT
The LEOs were outgunned, at least at the start of the fight. The City of Los Angeles was and is way too PC...but they never figured this kind of thing would happen. They don't want to be seen as overly paramilitaristic, so they opted for the softest street profile. Before this event, imagine how the liberal media would have handled the knowledge that the LAPD was carrying M-16s in the trunks of their cruisers, as some now are? The coppers would have been crucified by the lefty looneys! Remember, they had a field day blistering the cops after the fight was over because they didn't get an ambulance to the location of the second robber, who had been wounded and was bleeding out. Personally, I hope they did take their time on purpose. Tough shit, I say. Let the SOB bleed out...then the taxpayers make out...and the lawyers lose out. The POS robbers were dressed out to the max. As has already been stated here, nothing the LEOs came to the gunfight with would penetrate the baddies' body armor...and it would appear that the LEOs were unable to get close enough for a head shot without exposing themselves to devestating automatic fire. Very fortunately, no one was killed but the perps. I have seen the video several times too. Each time, I am more convinced that had that PD been less PC, and had at least one supervisor had an M-16 with green tips or even better, an M-14/M-1A, the fight would have been over quickly. I have one question: I have heard that at some point in the fight, the LEOs did go to B&Bs gunstore for more firepower. Is that true? What did they get? If it was high power rifles, why did they not end the fight sooner...or was that near the end anyway, as the SWAT was arriving with their toys?
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 6:08:19 AM EDT
I have one question: I have heard that at some point in the fight, the LEOs did go to B&Bs gunstore for more firepower. Is that true? What did they get? If it was high power rifles, why did they not end the fight sooner...or was that near the end anyway, as the SWAT was arriving with their toys? Yes it is true. AR-15's & other high end stuff Near the end anyway (read my 1st response to this thread)
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 6:14:35 AM EDT
Instead of playing footage of the Hollywood bank robbery over and over, perhaps the press should broadcast some tapes of ATF agents raiding innocent people's homes. After destroying the house the idiot blonde newscaster could say "But they didn't find anything. When will these civil rights violations stop (for the children)?"
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 6:21:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Schnert: Instead of playing footage of the Hollywood bank robbery over and over, perhaps the press should broadcast some tapes of ATF agents raiding innocent people's homes. After destroying the house the idiot blonde newscaster could say "But they didn't find anything. When will these civil rights violations stop (for the children)?"
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Sounds like someones dreamin again!(no flame intended Schnert)
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 8:41:23 AM EDT
Yeah they want to B&B to get some shotguns with slugs and some AR's. the bigest weapon LA pd had was 9mm's
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 9:26:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911greg: Yeah they want to B&B to get some shotguns with slugs and some AR's. the bigest weapon LA pd had was 9mm's
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Um, negative. They [i]had[/i] shotguns, but they were only issued and authorized for buckshot. They [i]may[/i] have picked up some slugs, but I haven't found any source, (including the video released by LAPD only to law enforcement) that states that the officers picked up shotguns. B & B loaned them AR-15 rifles, magazines, and ammo, none of which made it into the fight.
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 3:49:05 PM EDT
A typical Kevlar bulletproof vest, the kind issued to police officers, can stop small-arms fire. But it can't stop a knife or large-caliber bullets. When Ceradyne's lightweight boron carbide-based armor plates are added to the vest, slipped into pockets in front and back, the vest becomes truly bulletproof - capable of withstanding a hit from a .50-caliber gun at close range. The cost? Around $1,000 a vest.
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 4:57:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SomeGuyInAHat: B & B loaned them AR-15 rifles, magazines, and ammo, none of which made it into the fight.
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I thought that the second bad guy died in a firefight when four cops rolled up in a cruiser and opened fire with the AR-15's that they borrowed? Also didn't the second bad guy have a G3?
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 5:04:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARndog: I thought that the second bad guy died in a firefight when four cops rolled up in a cruiser and opened fire with the AR-15's that they borrowed?
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Those were SWAT cops with their department issued weapons.
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 5:23:49 PM EDT
Those were SWAT cops with their department issued weapons.
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ok, thanks for the info
posted by schapman43 What finally killed the two back robbers?
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I believe one shot himself when SWAT arrived (or he ran out of ammo?), and the other drove away and then tried to steal a pick-up truck but then the cops caught up to him and he died in a shootout (or shortly thereafter due to a fatal wound). What about the G3? Also would the slugs have penetrated or just broken bones?
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 11:03:32 PM EDT
The AR's the cops borrowed from B&B were later auctioned off at the Soldier of Fortune convention in Las Vegas. Troy, I agree with you. It looked like their Plan B was "f*** it, let's get the ultimate adrenalin rush".
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 11:34:27 PM EDT
Ehhh, Like I have said before (and been flamed for it) it was just like Reginald Denny: The 4 cops in the car that rolled up to the scene should of rammed the two bad guys with their car. End of shootout, two bad guys pinned to the hood of their car. Don't go off about "getting shot at" to me, they were what, within 20 feet of those bad guys. I'll bet that a car weighing a couple of tons with 40 mph of forward momentum will beat out any bullet proof vest anytime. Reginald Denny? If I were in an 18 wheeler loaded with a couple of tons of rocks and I had a mob of people coming at me I would have put that som'bitch in low granny gear and drove over anyone in my way. Good ole "Football" gold teefusus Williams would have been "flat, deflated and dead" Football Williams.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 12:21:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911greg: Would 223's or slugs go thru the armor that the badguys were wearing? and did both the bad guys have AK's one of the rifles looked different than a AK it had a dual drum magazine on it.
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They had one of these. 70 Round Drum. Lot of rounds downrange. [img]http://www.mindspring.com/~ahaywood5785/webcam/AK.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 1:21:41 AM EDT
There is footage of one of the bank robbers shooting his select fire G-3. He did a lot of damage with it, one cop is trying to sue HK for his injuries. I think it hit him in ass and it shattered his pelvis. If I remember correctly, the G-3 was put out of action by a 9mm striking the receiver and jamming the action. He then grabbed another AK with 70 drum and continued spraying the neighborhood. The official story, the first bandit was shot in the head as he put the gun to his own head. A simultaneous hit from the swat team and suicide.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 10:41:41 AM EDT
Seems at the time both the cops AND the baddies were ate up with a case of the dumbass baddies were stupid to stand and fight the cops freaked when a couple of baddies retaliated with superior firepower 1 baddie was WITHIN 20ft of cops w/fullmatic,full body armor,cops only had pistols and birdshot and he STILL couldn't take out the cops bad aim from baddies was the main thing that saved the cops from getting wasted EARLY on in the fight.had thier(baddies)aim been true, they MIGHT have escaped.And with fullmatics like they had,droppin that chopper woulda been easy(gotta get rid of air support quickly, don'tcha know)!possibility of escape would have increased dramaticly. cops got REAL lucky (I bet this'll fire ya'lls cops egos up i'm sure,BUT it's just a fact that can be seen on video) (I like cops so don't get all pissy cause someone ruffles ya'lls feathers OK?)
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