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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/11/2005 8:31:52 AM EDT
FBI sniper tells his tale. 11:31 CST
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:16:03 AM EDT
Pretty whitewashed version of both Waco and Ruby Ridge.
Not about those events specifically though.

Guy said they never fired a shot at Waco and that the Banch Davidians fired over 100,000 rounds? Sounds pretty damned far fetched to me.

As for Ruby Ridge, I'd say the truth came out in the Congressional Hearings that went on for 2 weeks. Blatantly mismanaged and nothing but state sanctioned murder it was obvious even to Congress. Nothing was done. Nothing. Murder of citizens in the name of the state offers power and protection, contrary to the Constitution.

The "Good Guys" shoot was pretty damn interesting. Funny how I never heard of that one.
Guy being interviewed said sometimes you could do everything right and have a bad ending. Piss poor shoot IMO. Guy was visible for shot and partially exposed but sniper went through the glass? Not doing everything right in my book.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:18:29 AM EDT
Pushing little children
with their fully automatics
they like to push the weak around....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:31:34 AM EDT
You can expect a nice Liberal slant on that story.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:36:57 AM EDT
The former FBI sniper should appered to be bought and paid for. It's nice that his tell all book backs the Fed position 110%. Crap like that just makes me sick.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:12:46 AM EDT
Disgusting what the .gov did.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:32:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:
The "Good Guys" shoot was pretty damn interesting. Funny how I never heard of that one.
Guy being interviewed said sometimes you could do everything right and have a bad ending. Piss poor shoot IMO. Guy was visible for shot and partially exposed but sniper went through the glass? Not doing everything right in my book.



Really?! Were you there? Do you have any idea where the sniper was at or what his vantage point was when the shot was ordered? No? Me neither. Nice monday morning quarterbacking, asshat.

And "the guy" being interviewed was Maj. Plaster. Not many more qualified individuals on the subject than him.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:34:12 AM EDT
This thread will degenerate quickly.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:36:32 AM EDT
Lon Horuchi should be in Club Fed for murder and attempted murder....being passed around the inmates like a party favor....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:51:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:

Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:
The "Good Guys" shoot was pretty damn interesting. Funny how I never heard of that one.
Guy being interviewed said sometimes you could do everything right and have a bad ending. Piss poor shoot IMO. Guy was visible for shot and partially exposed but sniper went through the glass? Not doing everything right in my book.



Really?! Were you there? Do you have any idea where the sniper was at or what his vantage point was when the shot was ordered? No? Me neither. Nice monday morning quarterbacking, asshat.

And "the guy" being interviewed was Maj. Plaster. Not many more qualified individuals on the subject than him.



What a jerk. Sounds like you're the one wearing the hat. Asshat.

All on camera. Appeared camera was in vicinity of shooter.
Looked like a straight on shot. If from the right, there was no shot.
If from the left it would have penetrated the glass straight on and wouldn't have been deflected sufficiently to miss. It is easy to see how a front quarter shot could have been deflected by the glss door whcih was being held partially open.

Further, dickhead, how many people were then shot by the perp?
There is no way this qualifies as a good shoot. Just because they give some other asshat a rifle and tell him he is the designated sniper, does not make him necessarily qualified or experienced.
He blew it. You might argue why it went bad but it still went bad. Bad shoot.

Now go learn something about what you are talking and then you can come back and piss and moan like bitch some more. Or just go back to your goat.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:52:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:54:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:
And "the guy" being interviewed was Maj. Plaster. Not many more qualified individuals on the subject than him.



So, was Major Plaster there either?

Seems like your argument about a "monday morning QB" just went out the window.....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:55:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Did the dog get shot?




Yep, at Ruby Ridge.

Scott
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:58:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:10:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Bullitt3401:

Originally Posted By vito113:
Did the dog get shot?




Yep, at Ruby Ridge.

Scott



Your JBT's really have a thing about shooting dogs…


ANdy



Less paperwork and they still get to shoot something.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:15:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:
And "the guy" being interviewed was Maj. Plaster. Not many more qualified individuals on the subject than him.



So, was Major Plaster there either?

Seems like your argument about a "monday morning QB" just went out the window.....



I doubt he was there. I'm not even sure he was talking about that particualr shoot. They made it look like he was though.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:20:26 AM EDT
No matter how you say it, US citizens were still MURDERED by Federal agents. And the Agents got off scott free.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:20:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:

Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:
The "Good Guys" shoot was pretty damn interesting. Funny how I never heard of that one.
Guy being interviewed said sometimes you could do everything right and have a bad ending. Piss poor shoot IMO. Guy was visible for shot and partially exposed but sniper went through the glass? Not doing everything right in my book.



Really?! Were you there? Do you have any idea where the sniper was at or what his vantage point was when the shot was ordered? No? Me neither. Nice monday morning quarterbacking, asshat.

And "the guy" being interviewed was Maj. Plaster. Not many more qualified individuals on the subject than him.



What a jerk. Sounds like you're the one wearing the hat. Asshat.

All on camera. Appeared camera was in vicinity of shooter.
Looked like a straight on shot. If from the right, there was no shot.
If from the left it would have penetrated the glass straight on and wouldn't have been deflected sufficiently to miss. It is easy to see how a front quarter shot could have been deflected by the glss door whcih was being held partially open.

Further, dickhead, how many people were then shot by the perp?
There is no way this qualifies as a good shoot. Just because they give some other asshat a rifle and tell him he is the designated sniper, does not make him necessarily qualified or experienced.
He blew it. You might argue why it went bad but it still went bad. Bad shoot.

Now go learn something about what you are talking and then you can come back and piss and moan like bitch some more. Or just go back to your goat.



Wow....you must be some kind of genuine bad-ass to have evaluated a 14 year old incident, that you knew nothing about, in the span of the two minutes that it was profiled on the History Channel.

Plaster's point (which you might understand if you had ever 'been there, or done that') was simply that despite having the best personnel, equipment, and training that money can buy, sometimes it just goes to shit. That's reality, it sucks when it happens, but rest assured, it does happen.

And again....asshat....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:23:29 AM EDT
Enough with the name calling, before you get this thread locked.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:26:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:

Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:

Originally Posted By Rebel_Marine:
The "Good Guys" shoot was pretty damn interesting. Funny how I never heard of that one.
Guy being interviewed said sometimes you could do everything right and have a bad ending. Piss poor shoot IMO. Guy was visible for shot and partially exposed but sniper went through the glass? Not doing everything right in my book.



Really?! Were you there? Do you have any idea where the sniper was at or what his vantage point was when the shot was ordered? No? Me neither. Nice monday morning quarterbacking, asshat.

And "the guy" being interviewed was Maj. Plaster. Not many more qualified individuals on the subject than him.



What a jerk. Sounds like you're the one wearing the hat. Asshat.

All on camera. Appeared camera was in vicinity of shooter.
Looked like a straight on shot. If from the right, there was no shot.
If from the left it would have penetrated the glass straight on and wouldn't have been deflected sufficiently to miss. It is easy to see how a front quarter shot could have been deflected by the glss door whcih was being held partially open.

Further, dickhead, how many people were then shot by the perp?
There is no way this qualifies as a good shoot. Just because they give some other asshat a rifle and tell him he is the designated sniper, does not make him necessarily qualified or experienced.
He blew it. You might argue why it went bad but it still went bad. Bad shoot.

Now go learn something about what you are talking and then you can come back and piss and moan like bitch some more. Or just go back to your goat.



Wow....you must be some kind of genuine bad-ass to have evaluated a 14 year old incident, that you knew nothing about, in the span of the two minutes that it was profiled on the History Channel.

Plaster's point (which you might understand if you had ever 'been there, or done that') was simply that despite having the best personnel, equipment, and training that money can buy, sometimes it just goes to shit. That's reality, it sucks when it happens, but rest assured, it does happen.

And again....asshat....



I guess either your goat had a headache or you're just quick.
I understood Plaster's point just fine. I am unconvinced that it applies to the case at hand. The bell shaped curve necessitates that the majority are average, some are less than. Um, that'd be you.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:27:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 11:28:24 AM EDT by Rebel_Marine]

Originally Posted By ErinMT:
Enough with the name calling, before you get this thread locked.



You are correct. Cease fire.

ETA my apologies to all.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:27:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:
Wow....you must be some kind of genuine bad-ass to have evaluated a 14 year old incident, that you knew nothing about, in the span of the two minutes that it was profiled on the History Channel.

Plaster's point (which you might understand if you had ever 'been there, or done that') was simply that despite having the best personnel, equipment, and training that money can buy, sometimes it just goes to shit. That's reality, it sucks when it happens, but rest assured, it does happen.

And again....asshat....



Lon's own statements lead us to the conclusion that sometimes you have neither the best personnel or the bet training.

As an LEO sniper you sure as hell better know your background. He claims he was shooting at Randy and hit his wife square in the face. Full flush, right in the melon....

How's that happen?

Poor skill? Poor training? Or maybe he took a "target of opportunity" and tried to explain it away....

Hmm....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:31:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:
Wow....you must be some kind of genuine bad-ass to have evaluated a 14 year old incident, that you knew nothing about, in the span of the two minutes that it was profiled on the History Channel.

Plaster's point (which you might understand if you had ever 'been there, or done that') was simply that despite having the best personnel, equipment, and training that money can buy, sometimes it just goes to shit. That's reality, it sucks when it happens, but rest assured, it does happen.

And again....asshat....



Lon's own statements lead us to the conclusion that sometimes you have neither the best personnel or the bet training.

As an LEO sniper you sure as hell better know your background. He claims he was shooting at Randy and hit his wife square in the face. Full flush, right in the melon....

How's that happen?

Poor skill? Poor training? Or maybe he took a "target of opportunity" and tried to explain it away....

Hmm....



My opinion on it is that Horiuchi knew the were "white separatists" and he was going to kill someone....

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:32:11 AM EDT
That's where I lean Shivan. If you're shooting a .308 at someones head, the person holding the weapon should know damn well that the round is NOT going to stop in the targets head. So before he fires he should have checked to see what was behind the intended target.

But then again the fact that the women died from a headshot seems very suspicious in itself. If it had winged the side of her head that's one thing. But a dead on CNS hit seems pretty well aimed to me.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:38:07 AM EDT
Shivan,

Rebel Marine and I are pissing in each other's ears about the Good Guys hostage incident, not Ruby Ridge. I can't (won't) defend that one.

RM,

Enough quoting, we're wasting bandwidth. I'll grow up and stop calling you an asshat, but it doesn't mean I don't still think it...

By your own admission, you'd never heard of this incident. Yet after viewing a two minute segment on TV, you really feel qualified enough to condemn it as a bad shoot? You still don't know where the sniper was when he took the shot. You don't know what weapon or ammunition was in use. Do you even know if the shot was deliberately made thru the glass or was it a clear shot to the BG's melon until the door closed just a little bit?

My point in the pissing match is this...I have been there. I know that despite good planning, and good leadership, and good training, things can go to shit. The outcome of that incident might have been different if not for just a fraction of an inch...

There. Now snuggle on up close to your monitor and give me hug.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:40:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:
Shivan,

Rebel Marine and I are pissing in each other's ears about the Good Guys hostage incident, not Ruby Ridge. I can't (won't) defend that one.



Is the Good Guys one the stereo store with the Vietnamese "terrorists"? Where the sniper hits the door first, then the terrorists start capping hostages???

That one?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:42:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:
Shivan,

Rebel Marine and I are pissing in each other's ears about the Good Guys hostage incident, not Ruby Ridge. I can't (won't) defend that one.



Is the Good Guys one the stereo store with the Vietnamese "terrorists"? Where the sniper hits the door first, then the terrorists start capping hostages???

That one?



Yes, that's the one.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:50:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Did the dog get shot?




The first casualty was the dog. No joke.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:53:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 11:56:01 AM EDT by Planerench]
deleted
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:54:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:
Shivan,

Rebel Marine and I are pissing in each other's ears about the Good Guys hostage incident, not Ruby Ridge. I can't (won't) defend that one.



Is the Good Guys one the stereo store with the Vietnamese "terrorists"? Where the sniper hits the door first, then the terrorists start capping hostages???

That one?



Yes, that's the one.



That shot helped to get departments to train on shots through glass. Plaster states that it's not an exact science, but nearly predictable as a last resort type of shot -- this is in his book Ultimate Sniper.

Not sure I would have taken that shot through an angled door though, even with the best projectile and sniper team.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:34:18 PM EDT
Some of my "slanted views"

1. LEO marksman/snipers are responsible for their bullet from when they pull the trigger to when to bullet stops moving....period. Target identification and adequate target isolation is the rule.

2. Randy Weaver should not have broken the law.

3. Randy Weaver should have been a man and turned himself in instead of endangering his family.

4. Randy Weaver got a nice check.

5. Randy Weaver is no hero.

Semper Fi,
ASO544
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:35:53 PM EDT
Wow what a shitstorm. I guess everyone is a little sensitive that is with the LAPD shooting the baby and all. It's easy to dog the bad shots I have had plenty of groups where the fifth shot is the flyer.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:37:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:
Shivan,

Rebel Marine and I are pissing in each other's ears about the Good Guys hostage incident, not Ruby Ridge. I can't (won't) defend that one.



Is the Good Guys one the stereo store with the Vietnamese "terrorists"? Where the sniper hits the door first, then the terrorists start capping hostages???

That one?



Yes, that's the one.



That shot helped to get departments to train on shots through glass. Plaster states that it's not an exact science, but nearly predictable as a last resort type of shot -- this is in his book Ultimate Sniper.

Not sure I would have taken that shot through an angled door though, even with the best projectile and sniper team.





Would have been a lot different with a .50 I bet.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:39:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ASO544:
Some of my "slanted views"

1. LEO marksman/snipers are responsible for their bullet from when they pull the trigger to when to bullet stops moving....period. Target identification and adequate target isolation is the rule.

2. Randy Weaver should not have broken the law.

3. Randy Weaver should have been a man and turned himself in instead of endangering his family.

4. Randy Weaver got a nice check.

5. Randy Weaver is no hero.

Semper Fi,
ASO544



That is all well and good...but Lon Horuchi should not have shot Randy Weavers Wife, WHILE she was holding a baby square in the face...unless maybe he thought the baby was an IED or something. Simple fact is, if anyone but a LEO did this, they would be in jail.

I have a feeling that if a military sniper did the same thing in Iraq...the press would be all over the militaries ass to court martial him. But in this case, since the Gov and the media was able to portray Randy Weaver as a nutjob...its all good....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:44:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ASO544:
Some of my "slanted views"

1. LEO marksman/snipers are responsible for their bullet from when they pull the trigger to when to bullet stops moving....period. Target identification and adequate target isolation is the rule.

2. Randy Weaver should not have broken the law.

3. Randy Weaver should have been a man and turned himself in instead of endangering his family.

4. Randy Weaver got a nice check.

5. Randy Weaver is no hero.

Semper Fi,
ASO544



2 - 5 does not absolve the government of murder.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:51:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
Would have been a lot different with a .50 I bet.



Still get deflection, especially with unknown glass thickness and variable angle of intersection on the moving door.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:40:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Garage-Logician:
Shivan,

Rebel Marine and I are pissing in each other's ears about the Good Guys hostage incident, not Ruby Ridge. I can't (won't) defend that one.

RM,

Enough quoting, we're wasting bandwidth. I'll grow up and stop calling you an asshat, but it doesn't mean I don't still think it...

By your own admission, you'd never heard of this incident. Yet after viewing a two minute segment on TV, you really feel qualified enough to condemn it as a bad shoot? You still don't know where the sniper was when he took the shot. You don't know what weapon or ammunition was in use. Do you even know if the shot was deliberately made thru the glass or was it a clear shot to the BG's melon until the door closed just a little bit?

My point in the pissing match is this...I have been there. I know that despite good planning, and good leadership, and good training, things can go to shit. The outcome of that incident might have been different if not for just a fraction of an inch...

There. Now snuggle on up close to your monitor and give me hug.



Just got back from a nice long hike in the woods. I am all mellow now. But no hugs.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 3:27:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:
Did the dog get shot?





Yeah, ALL of them did, even the PUPS
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