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Posted: 9/3/2004 7:22:31 PM EST
I am listening to Michael Savage on the radio tell how some fathers in Russia used their own firearms to enter the school and hunt down the Chechen terrorists who had taken their children hostage inside the school. Is there a father among us who would not do the same thing if we were in their position? Other "burly men" beat some of the terrorists to death. God bless those fathers over there who put their own lives on the line to save the lives of the children inside that school.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:23:31 PM EST
Your fucking A right we would, even if it wasn't our children.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:24:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
Your fucking A right we would, even if it wasn't our children.



Ditto
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:24:48 PM EST
I expect there are soem parts of this country where the populace would fight there way through the policeline to get in...

and you would have to get the police out of your way..
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:32:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:37:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
The Russian government are claiming that the locals shooting through off their attack on the building somehow, might just be their attempt to shift blame.

I think in more rural areas you'd see the same thing here, but in suburbs/cities? I think they're more the "let the government handle it." types.

From a practical standpoint I think things'd have to be pretty much a lost cause before I'd head in with my AR v. letting a police/military unit handle it, I don't think any individual, or even a group of men who had not trained together, would have much chance of saving any hostages by charging in with rifles-once they started shooting or you knew they were going to and you had nothing to lose, that'd be a different story.

There is a pic on another thread of a local with a civilian/hunting version of what looks like a dragunov firing at something.



Obviously, you have never played counterstrike. I am certified in hostage rescue.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:38:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:43:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By dave223:

Obviously, you have never played counterstrike. I am certified in hostage rescue.



Unfortunetly too many believe because they play some video game that they have the skills of a commando.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:45:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/3/2004 7:48:24 PM EST by warlord]

Originally Posted By ar50troll:

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
Your fucking A right we would, even if it wasn't our children.



Ditto


Me also.

Aimless: After action report is that the Ruskies negotiated a truce with the terrorists to get the initial dead, and the kids inside saw a chance to escape; the terrorist shot at the kids as they were escaping and from what I read there were quite a few causalties, and the Ruskies shot back at the terrorists. This is truly a sad day.

Forgot to add, some of the initial causalties were parents trying to defend their children against the terrorists. Who would've thought the first day of school would result in something like this, it was supposed to be a happy occasion. In a few days, I too will take my children to their first day of school. I feel so sad for the parents and children.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:46:21 PM EST
Yeah dont you know counterstrikes all wrong, Its Rainbow Six.....


hmm I never noticed how gay a name for a badass tactical group that is before
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:57:43 PM EST
Perhaps these Russian fathers remembered the lessons of Columbine?
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:00:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 9:38:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
Your fucking A right we would, even if it wasn't our children.



A big +1
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 10:06:51 PM EST
Unless you can round up some buddies who are proficient shooters and you are practiced in team tactics, it's a well trained (read large city) SWAT team best suited for handling this kind of thing. Given a suitably large and well trained sworn force on scene, civilians would still work well for things such as perimeter security if needed. Most locals could handle that reasonably well....think deer season. I would also hand a few rifles to a team of LEO's if they needed them (as long as I could keep my own if I needed it).

It seems like the Russians had little to no special capabilities. One would think they would have had a sizeable team and ready to go in on cue with overwhelming force and something resembling a coherent plan if things broke down. It sure seems like they were undermanned and unprepared for what happened. Much props for the civvies for having great big balls to take up for the shortcomings in the governments response and taking up arms. That is the spirit America used to have.

If When something like this happens here in the USA, at least in bumfuck WI, it would only take a few hours to get competent teams on site. Further, armed civilian help will be unwanted and unappreciated by condescending officials, regardless of if the help is needed or not.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 2:52:44 AM EST
I was not trying to diminish SWAT's importance during a crisis like this. I was just admiring the courage and devotion of these fathers to take up their own arms in the face of overwhelming odds and go into harm's way to rescue their own children inside from the terrorists.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:05:45 AM EST
I dont have kids, but if I knew someone else going into a situation like that Id go with them.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:40:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:25:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By ServiceRifleShooter:
I was not trying to diminish SWAT's importance during a crisis like this. I was just admiring the courage and devotion of these fathers to take up their own arms in the face of overwhelming odds and go into harm's way to rescue their own children inside from the terrorists.



I think that's a good point, in how many areas of the world would parents and members of the community still show up armed and willing to fight if something like this happened?



Don't know for positive, but I think around here where I live, this could happen.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:35:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

I think that's a good point, in how many areas of the world would parents and members of the community still show up armed and willing to fight if something like this happened?



The question would be, in how many areas of the country would the police start trying to arrest people if they did show up with guns ready to fight?
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:43:48 AM EST
This kinda already happened in Columbine. Cops showed up and SOP was not to enter the school, so they sat around for 3 hours until the killing was done then entered the school. I can tell you this, our local PD, as a result of the actions at Columbine, have standing orders to enter any school and stop the shooters. I'd damn sure show up armed, but unless the SWAT team was on vacation, I'd let the professionals handle the job. The Russians were unprepared for this, both in training & equipment.

All the actions of this band of Muslim terrorists did was bring more hate for their religion upon themselves.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:55:29 AM EST
Now if we could get all the Counterstrike Commandos to get out and run five miles, do 200 pushups, 50 pullups, learn to rappel, learn noise discipline, hand signals, team tactics, rigid obedience, physical hygiene, smell the smoke, feel the blast, learn to fight deaf and blind, stick and knife fighting....we could go kick some AQ butt.

Don't look at me, I'm a thinker....
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:14:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheKill:
Unless you can round up some buddies who are proficient shooters and you are practiced in team tactics, it's a well trained (read large city) SWAT team best suited for handling this kind of thing. Given a suitably large and well trained sworn force on scene, civilians would still work well for things such as perimeter security if needed. Most locals could handle that reasonably well....think deer season. I would also hand a few rifles to a team of LEO's if they needed them (as long as I could keep my own if I needed it).

It seems like the Russians had little to no special capabilities. One would think they would have had a sizeable team and ready to go in on cue with overwhelming force and something resembling a coherent plan if things broke down. It sure seems like they were undermanned and unprepared for what happened. Much props for the civvies for having great big balls to take up for the shortcomings in the governments response and taking up arms. That is the spirit America used to have.


Don't sell the Ruskie's short, but I think they would've set up everything IF they had time, things were so fluid I doubt the Ruskie LE had the luxury of time to set everything up, and shooting just started, and everything went south from there. Sometimes you just have to play the cards you have.

I feel really sad because I can see the face my children would be doing the exact same thing in a few days. The past few days has been a horrendous.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:15:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By ServiceRifleShooter:
I am listening to Michael Savage on the radio tell how some fathers in Russia used their own firearms to enter the school and hunt down the Chechen terrorists who had taken their children hostage inside the school. Is there a father among us who would not do the same thing if we were in their position? Other "burly men" beat some of the terrorists to death. God bless those fathers over there who put their own lives on the line to save the lives of the children inside that school.



Fukin'-A right I would. I'd save my kid or die trying but I'd take a few of those "RELIGION OF PEACE" bastards with me!!!
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:19:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 6:34:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
I expect there are some parts of this country where the populace would fight there way through the police line to get in...

and you would have to get the police out of your way..




Bingo. If something like this happened here, a buttload of heavily armed civies would show up (myself included) only to be turned back (or attempt to turn back...) by the PC leaders of the POPO.

This is a real scenario guys. The PC "establishment" would not want us civies to get involved. Why?

Because it would prove that we do not need them as much as they want us to need them.



So, how many of you would be prepared to cross that police line (instead of waiting in fear of "liability" like they did at Columbine...)????


CMOS

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 8:06:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2004 8:07:47 AM EST by Backstop]

Originally Posted By CMOS:

Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
I expect there are some parts of this country where the populace would fight there way through the police line to get in...
and you would have to get the police out of your way..


Bingo. If something like this happened here, a buttload of heavily armed civies would show up (myself included) only to be turned back (or attempt to turn back...) by the PC leaders of the POPO.
This is a real scenario guys. The PC "establishment" would not want us civies to get involved. Why?
Because it would prove that we do not need them as much as they want us to need them.
So, how many of you would be prepared to cross that police line (instead of waiting in fear of "liability" like they did at Columbine...)????
CMOS



Man, this could be bad. You know darn well that some kids would get shot by the untrained civilians. Then you'd have the parents suing the shooters. I doubt .gov would help them. The liability for this would be huge.

That being said, I'd be with the first group of civilians going in.

Having to cross a police barricade could also be bad. I'm curious - maybe an LEO can chime in here.

Scenario: my kid is a hostage and the LEOs are waiting, and waiting - then waiting some more for SWAT, or a negotiator - something. But it's been a long while of waiting. We hear kids crying and an occassional shot from inside the bldg. A group of armed civilians (me included) arrives with the intent of storming the bldg. We're tired of waiting and believe they are executing the hostages. You LEOs have an order to stand fast and wait. Are LEOs justified in using deadly force to stop the civilians from entering the bldg? Even if the civilians show no intent to use deadly force against the LEOs? I think the answer is yes, but I'd like to hear an LEO's take on this.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 8:08:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
Your fucking A right we would, even if it wasn't our children.



Amen. Not one would survive to brag about it...
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:37:03 PM EST
Originally, I really did not intend this thread to have anything to do with SWAT. I simply commented on the bravery of those fathers. But since this thread seems to be morphing into a discussion of SWAT, I might as well chime in also. I am not diminishing SWAT's usefullness during a critical hostage incident like this. In fact, if my own children were being held hostage by terrorists (God forbid) I would want as many SWAT cops on scene as possible. SWAT's training, tactics, teamwork, equipment and manpower would be a huge advantage. However, the highest priority of an individual SWAT cop is to survive the incident and go home to his own family at the end of the shift. But the highest priority that those fathers had during the incident was to rescue their own children even if it meant losing their own life in the process. For the SWAT cops this mission was a professional matter. But for those fathers it was a personal matter. I am sure the intense motivation and dedication to the mission helped to compensate for the fathers' lack of training and equipment and teamwork. Failure was not an option for those fathers. Remember the saying: "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but rather the size of the fight in the dog." Certainly those fathers who entered the school to rescue their children had an incredible amount of fight inside of them.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:43:23 PM EST
Now that this has devolved into a discussion on hostage rescue,

Call in the BATFE and light er up!

Seriously I would be armed and ready in case any bad guys tried to make a break for it.

The cops would need some heavy backup and a Remington 760 or M1A .308 would be just the ticket.

CRC
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:44:10 PM EST
Well, if Columbine was an accurate portrayal of what the police would end up doing, I'll take my chances with a couple of buddies and our ARs.
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:06:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Well, if Columbine was an accurate portrayal of what the police would end up doing, I'll take my chances with a couple of buddies and our ARs.



Agreed - and I don't even have any children yet.

CMOS
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 4:12:11 PM EST
The Russian officials would have waited too long to save these kids. They were being starved of food and water. They had a day to live AT MOST. Action was needed, I commend these fathers, even if it "threw off" the real assault on the school. I just hope the fathers had sufficient clothing to show the Russian SF guys who they were.

Link Posted: 9/4/2004 5:07:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
Your fucking A right we would, even if it wasn't our children.



Amen. Not one would survive to brag about it...



That happened to a number of Chechnyian Freedom Fighters that had tried to escape. The local fathers with their hunting rifles captured them. They were given a fair trial on the spot and hung where they were captured.

wganz

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 2:27:10 AM EST
A problem that we have here in Iraq, and which I'm sure occurred to the Russian government forces, is that on occasion locals will grab their AKs and try to do good against the opposition. The problem is that all we see is a guy running around with an AK. Ergo: Target. We've advised the locals here that they should -not- try going hunting the opposition because they've as good a chance of getting killed by us.

So, you're this Russian soldier going into a major firefight, and you see a guy not in uniform brandishing an AK. You've an excellent chance that you may decide to shoot him. Not good for the kid if he survives to have the parent shot by their own side.

Similarly, part of the reason that some were able to escape the school in the first place was that they were able to cross the 100m 'clear zone' the police had set up by mingling in with the parents that had rushed the line.

Forgive me for being the minority, but I think joining in the fight was the worst thing these parents could do.

NTM
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 3:17:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:11:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
Well, if Columbine was an accurate portrayal of what the police would end up doing, I'll take my chances with a couple of buddies and our ARs.


Agreed, indeed.

And those Russian military and security types that were at the School buildings in Russia, didn't encircle and close-off the premises very well did they?

They needed some 'Russian fathers' to form a containment ring around the area with instructions to let nothing and no one pass.

Eric The(Agreeable)Hun



It may be simply a matter that the cordon fell because the Milita on the outer cordon refused to shoot men you just wanted to rescue their women and children. And that was the only way they were going to be kept out.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:15:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
Your fucking A right we would, even if it wasn't our children.



+1.


I don't even have kids.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:23:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 4:25:13 AM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:30:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:32:16 AM EST
ABSOLUTELY NOT!! I'd sit on the curb and hope for the best. We're not Russia, we have counter terrorist / coutner hostage groups specifically trained to deal with these situations. I have confidence in my abilites, but I'll not risk my childs life. I'd leave the situation to those who are properly trained, SWAT / Military groups.

Only a fool would think he's as good as these groups. And I'd not risk my childs life trying to find out if I had what it takes.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 4:39:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
ABSOLUTELY NOT!! I'd sit on the curb and hope for the best. We're not Russia, we have counter terrorist / coutner hostage groups specifically trained to deal with these situations. I have confidence in my abilites, but I'll not risk my childs life. I'd leave the situation to those who are properly trained, SWAT / Military groups.

Only a fool would think he's as good as these groups. And I'd not risk my childs life trying to find out if I had what it takes.



Nobody, except perhaps Russia ironically, has a CT group that could handle 30 hostage takers and 1000+ hostages. Its very foolish of you to suggest that we would do better, there has never been any training for a situation of this magnitude anywhere in the US.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:03:14 AM EST

Russian soldier "It was only when we saw the first hostages coming out that the armed forces went in. We shouldn't have just let it happen, they should have gone straight away to save the children," he said.

Mother "My neighbour was a witness. After the explosions went off, the terrorists started to shoot at the children, and that is why our menfolk went on the attack. The Russian soldiers only arrived afterwards, we did not know who was shooting at whom."


There are hostage situations where you try to deal with the perps; but that does not apply to this particular brand of terrorist.

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:07:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
ABSOLUTELY NOT!! I'd sit on the curb and hope for the best. We're not Russia, we have counter terrorist / coutner hostage groups specifically trained to deal with these situations. I have confidence in my abilites, but I'll not risk my childs life. I'd leave the situation to those who are properly trained, SWAT / Military groups.

Only a fool would think he's as good as these groups. And I'd not risk my childs life trying to find out if I had what it takes.



Nobody, except perhaps Russia ironically, has a CT group that could handle 30 hostage takers and 1000+ hostages. Its very foolish of you to suggest that we would do better, there has never been any training for a situation of this magnitude anywhere in the US.



If my sons life comes down to me and a few die hard weekend warriors or highly trained Special Forces...... I'll put my faith in the SF guys. Theres no doubt in my mind if a situation like this took place that the military would be called in to handle it. Especially after the whole 9/11 ordeal, if terrorists took over a school here I think we'd see the military involved in the situation very quickly.

At least, I surely hope so.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:09:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:16:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 5:20:37 AM EST by Oslow]
I don't spend much time training to shoot targets with paintballs like the swat teams, but I would be willing to trade gunfire to save friends and family.


I'm not trying to bad-mouth the LEOs, but there is a lot of difference between going against a gangbanger (or a single gun-owner) with a 9mm and an unknown number of terrorists with rifles, grenades and bombs. Some of them are not going to be up to it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:20:46 AM EST
Dont misunderstand me. I have no illusions as to my abilities compared to our "Internal Special Forces"!!
If I didnt see tanks and full on military personnel there STAT, it WOULD come down to me and however had my back. Because as Eric said, while the SF folks have better training, my motiviational factor would most likely make me far more effective then any LE agency.

Its a hard situation to envision. We all know full well the cops would be trying to keep civilians out of the deal. The choice could very well be leave it to the "skilled" FBI or engage both the terrorists AND the police forces. The police wont let you just drive up, hop out and storm the place.......

So the true question isnt what would you do, but rather do you have the depth of character and resolve to do what would have to be done......
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:33:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 5:34:25 AM EST by Oslow]
If you think a lot of fathers would try to save their children then I hope you would not try to stand in the way of a grandfather going after his grandson!

Common sense and logic would have nothing to do with it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:42:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
A problem that we have here in Iraq, and which I'm sure occurred to the Russian government forces, is that on occasion locals will grab their AKs and try to do good against the opposition. The problem is that all we see is a guy running around with an AK. Ergo: Target. We've advised the locals here that they should -not- try going hunting the opposition because they've as good a chance of getting killed by us.

So, you're this Russian soldier going into a major firefight, and you see a guy not in uniform brandishing an AK. You've an excellent chance that you may decide to shoot him. Not good for the kid if he survives to have the parent shot by their own side.

Similarly, part of the reason that some were able to escape the school in the first place was that they were able to cross the 100m 'clear zone' the police had set up by mingling in with the parents that had rushed the line.

Forgive me for being the minority, but I think joining in the fight was the worst thing these parents could do.

NTM


I agree with you to a point, if it were in Iraq, yes, but this situation was so fluid, the parents had little choice, but at least try to save their children because they were probably going to die anyways. I would've done it to save my children.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:03:50 AM EST
I could think of no better way to die than in the process of saving my children.

Truth be told, I'd rather not have to die...but if it meant saving my daughters, I'd do it in a fraction of a heartbeat.

You can take that to the bank.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 8:10:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2004 11:16:43 AM EST by ArmdLbrl]
Well you have to wonder if the townspeople would have involved themselves if the Russian forces had shown anything like compitence in the past. There was no faith that the Goverment troops could do the job.

As to the terrorists breaking the cordon and getting out into the town- that may very well have SAVED lives since they were much more easily taken care of in small groups and without their hostages...

This is strange perhaps to us, but before our Civil War, people had the same lack of confidence in the US Army during the Indian Wars- they always wanted the extra manpower but never trusted the Regualrs to do the job... and in some periods the Army was so badly funded that lack of trust was justified.
Link Posted: 9/5/2004 11:02:37 AM EST
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=271125


Other survivors told how screaming teenage girls were dragged into rooms adjoining the gymnasium where they were being held and raped by their Chechen captors who chillingly made a video film of their appalling exploits

I don't know of any man that wouldn't break through an LEO/military cordon by any means necessary, if he knew the above was happening to his children. Or die trying.


*The above link and quote were posted by Heilo.
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