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Posted: 3/19/2013 4:57:51 PM EDT
My friend believes all guns in the US should be banned. We've been civil in our discussions about it, and I believe I am making some progress.
He is a big time attorney with lots of international clients etc. He is pretty well connected politically. He is very intelligent and thoughtful and would make a great convert.

He recently asked me to set up a shooting activity. He specifically asked to shoot AR-15s. He wants to bring along 15 friends (they're all over the political spectrum).


I really want this activity to be a positive experience for them. I want to show a professional, responsible, competent face of gun owners, but at the same time make it a lot of fun.

We are going to meet in a classroom setting about a week prior to the range trip and discuss safety, and fundamentals so we can use our range time for actual shooting.
We will have about 2 hours on the range.
I have another friend who is helping me plan this, between the two of us we have come up with 5 ARs.

I've negotiated with an outdoor range to let me do anything I want, (tannerite, steel, head to head competitions etc.)
So what would you do with two hours on the range?

(ammo is fairly limited right now, but I'm working on that)
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:00:24 PM EDT
With anyone I bring to the range, I first teach, and explain the 4 safety rules until it is very clear for everybody and they know it by memory.

I present them with a a5 plastified version of the safety rules, with some more goodies, that they get to keep.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:02:04 PM EDT
Divide them into two groups and have half of them hold the targets!
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:02:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 5:05:29 PM EDT by MotorMouth]
Start them off with a rifle cambered for 22LR, and make sure you have some reactive targets to shoot. i.e., those little self healing rubber things.


ETA: I also stand behind new shooters with an instruction that if I tap them on the shoulder to freeze. That way I can show them the error that they are committing, gun pointed in unsafe direction, or finger in trigger guard when it shouldn't be.

Remind them that a little nervousness/apprehension is normal, and if they drop a gun, let hit the ground.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:03:33 PM EDT
Steel. Definitely steel. Get a scoped rifle with a bipod and have them shoot it from a bench too, as far as you think they can hit it from. Not all run and gun type stuff.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:04:33 PM EDT
Where are you in VA? I can help out with extra rifles and donate some ammo.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:05:55 PM EDT
As long as they pitch in to cover the cost of cartridges.... I mean in my area .223 is outrageous.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:06:44 PM EDT
Control the message. I would list about 5-10 common myths that anti-gun people cite as reasons for banning AR15s and then let them experience first hand how they are being lied to...

Just a rough example:

1. The AR15 is a "high-powered" rifle.
2. A pistol grip is for spray fire from the hip
3. Why a barrel shroud is a desirable safety device rather than a military feature
4. Maybe set up a shooting scenario to illustrate how fast you can run a 30rd mag dry without achieving the desired result?
5. Modularity of the AR15 - why it s great for hunting, sport and self defense
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:08:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fluwoebers:
My friend believes all guns in the US should be banned. We've been civil in our discussions about it, and I believe I am making some progress.
He is a big time attorney with lots of international clients etc. He is pretty well connected politically. He is very intelligent and thoughtful and would make a great convert.

He recently asked me to set up a shooting activity. He specifically asked to shoot AR-15s. He wants to bring along 15 friends (they're all over the political spectrum).


I really want this activity to be a positive experience for them. I want to show a professional, responsible, competent face of gun owners, but at the same time make it a lot of fun.

We are going to meet in a classroom setting about a week prior to the range trip and discuss safety, and fundamentals so we can use our range time for actual shooting.
We will have about 2 hours on the range.
I have another friend who is helping me plan this, between the two of us we have come up with 5 ARs.

I've negotiated with an outdoor range to let me do anything I want, (tannerite, steel, head to head competitions etc.)
So what would you do with two hours on the range?

(ammo is fairly limited right now, but I'm working on that)

Good on you OP, this is great. I truly believe that this is the only way to change the minds of the left.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:08:56 PM EDT
When I first read the thread title I didn't see the word "event."

I thought, "Well, this could get interesting."
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:09:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:10:32 PM EDT
dont let them play with tannerite until they are solidly on the pro gun side of the argument, the last thing we need is for some anti to find out how fun it is and go tell all the other anti's and they will add it to the list of things to take away.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:10:53 PM EDT
15 people? You need some pro help. And a sponsor.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:11:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WindKnot1-1:
Divide them into two groups and have half of them hold the targets!


I was going to suggest a Russian roulette tournament, but this sounds good enough.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:11:17 PM EDT
Have them each shoot 10 rounds into a target at 10 yards and let them keep the target as a souvenir if they want.


Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:12:14 PM EDT
Excellent ideas. Thanks.

The shooters will pay for their own ammo and range time. I just need to make sure I have ammo available.
So far, I only have 1260 rnds. This event won't take place for at least a month, so I'm pretty sure I can get some more ammo in the mean time.

I'm in NOVA. The range is west of Leesburg.

Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:12:43 PM EDT
first get a bunch of puppies and put them in burlap sacks.........
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:13:33 PM EDT
Reactive targets are the order of the day with new shooters. Ballons, water jugs, steel plates, poppers, spinning stars etc. those self healing orange plastic shapes ones that jump when you hit them.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:14:13 PM EDT
I was gonna make a joke about a suppressed .22 and brain stems, but I figured that would probably get me a timeout.

Try not to scare them.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:14:47 PM EDT
I am an NRA Basic Pistol and L.E. Handgun/Shotgun/Patrol Rifle Instructor with Tactical Shooting Instructor designations for each.

My first thought is that 15 newbies with live/hot weapons is too many...for safety's sake. You will want more experienced "eyes on" types to watch everyone's backs, including your own.

A 4 to 1 (students to instructor) ratio is as high as I would go.

I ran 5 absolute newbies through a 'fam tour' of numerous pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and AR's last week with one helper that I trust to watch others while I was working with one or two at a time.

It takes your full attention and concentration at all times to keep everyone safe. Do not get complacent.

Establish range rules on the line of fire and for those standing by. Stick to them. Do not get complacent.

I don't know your experience level but even if you are an instructor you will have your hands full.

If you've got all the above covered...have fun.

Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:14:47 PM EDT
What is his stated purpose? You stated what you want out of it, but what does he want out of it for him and his friends?
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:15:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 5:16:43 PM EDT by VBC]
Yeah, I would just have one AR to shoot and let each person take turns shooting it under your direct supervision.

If they want more than that, it sounds like they're taking you for a ride to do some free shooting.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:22:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
Don't try to overdo it, as that is a lot of new shooters to watch over.


+1

15 people in two hours is a big undertaking for one person.

I'd have no more than two or three on the firing line at once.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:23:28 PM EDT
Find some bowling pins to shoot. Also get some cheap shaving creAm cans. And a .22 dueling tree is hours of fun

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:23:32 PM EDT
Don't try to manage 15 first time shooters with just 2 of you.

That could come unglued very quickly.

up the "instructor" count or split the group in 2.

Start with a .22 end with a Joe Biden special -
That way they can hopefully come to understand that the shotgun is way more powerful and more of a bitch to shoot.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:28:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fluwoebers:
Excellent ideas. Thanks.

The shooters will pay for their own ammo and range time. I just need to make sure I have ammo available.
So far, I only have 1260 rnds. This event won't take place for at least a month, so I'm pretty sure I can get some more ammo in the mean time.

I'm in NOVA. The range is west of Leesburg.



If you can get to Winchester, hit up Old Town Armory. He's got ammo on the shelf. Tell him what you're doing, he'll help you out :)
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:29:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bailagent100:
I am an NRA Basic Pistol and L.E. Handgun/Shotgun/Patrol Rifle Instructor with Tactical Shooting Instructor designations for each.

My first thought is that 15 newbies with live/hot weapons is too many...for safety's sake. You will want more experienced "eyes on" types to watch everyone's backs, including your own.

A 4 to 1 (students to instructor) ratio is as high as I would go.

I ran 5 absolute newbies through a 'fam tour' of numerous pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and AR's last week with one helper that I trust to watch others while I was working with one or two at a time.

It takes your full attention and concentration at all times to keep everyone safe. Do not get complacent.

Establish range rules on the line of fire and for those standing by. Stick to them. Do not get complacent.

I don't know your experience level but even if you are an instructor you will have your hands full.

If you've got all the above covered...have fun.


I'm not sure all of them are complete newbs. Some of them (the anti gun ones) definitely are.

My friend and I both have experience instructing (military), but haven't planned fun shoots for newbies.

We are limited to 5 shooters at a time by our access to guns, but we could always trim that down if that's too many at one time.
I may have a 3rd highly experienced shooter joining also.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:32:50 PM EDT
I think starting with 22s and paper targets is a good intro. Then move up to ARs. Keep the groups on the line small is a good idea too.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:34:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VBC:
Have them each shoot 10 rounds into a target at 10 yards and let them keep the target as a souvenir if they want.


Have them each shoot ten rounds into a target at 100 yds or at 200 yds, offhand position, and let them keep the targets. Most of them will only get half their rounds into the black, so they'll understand thet there is skill involved.

I tell my non-shooting friends that NRA High Power is the New Golf.

Don't let them try to empty a 30-round mag to see how fast they can shoot, because (A) this is not the time or place; (B) it's not particularly safe with new shooters; and (C) it communicates the wrong message. Some people will want to do it. Politely say no.

Google one of the guys that makes keychain fobs from reloaded (powderless/primerless) rounds. Buy 15 of the .223 versions. Give those out at the end of the day.

Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:36:38 PM EDT
For starters you need 16 blindfolds and a brick or concrete wall.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:39:45 PM EDT
At most you'll be able to have 4 shooters at a time shooting (2 per instructor) and that is only if you and your buddy have some experience controlling a firing line AND no one shooting acts like an ass hat.

Running multiple new shooters can get incredibly dangerous.

At the very least get chamber flags for every gun so no one "thinks" a gun is empty when it isn't. The 4 rules are fine and dandy but something physically blocking rounds from chambering is pretty important.

You're describing something like a condensed NRA Basic Rifle course which can be fun but you have to be on the ball when running new shooters. It's incredibly easy to get focused in on the shooter you're talking to or the jokes behind the line and miss dangerous behavior until it's too late.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:43:29 PM EDT
Would avoid tannerite.

Try starting on paper bullseyes, then moving to steel targets. For reactive targets, perhaps eggs or charcoal. No explosions, or fireballs, etc. You have the chance to get a foot in the door with these peoiple, having them chitter chatter about teh destructive power of a can of tomato soup shot with a rifle may bee too much for them.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:48:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 5:49:22 PM EDT by Conju]
Keep the ratios low. Trying to educate and babysit 20 new shooters is a recipe for disaster. Keep the shooter to non shooter ratio to below 1:3

Small guns to large guns. Take one out at a time, educate everyone on it and let them shoot it. Brief Q&A and then on to the next one.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:52:29 PM EDT
I would limit the number of guns to the number of instructors you have. See if you can get some more guys to come help out, even ask here on Arfcom for volunteers so you can have all five guns in use at once. That gives you the safety of one set of eyes on each gun and it lets the number of students watching each drop to two per gun/shooter, so they can more easily watch and learn.

If you can, start them out on .22LRs and then move them to the ARs. If you can get some .22 conversions or SW 15-22s that would be best to make it simpler on them by learning one platform.

Paper targets to start with and then move to steel plates. That way they can have their target to keep as a souveneir of their initial shots and get the experience of ringing the steel plate that most plinkers enjoy.

Don't bother with Tannerite, because as mentioned we don't need a bunch of anti-gunners starting to crow about blowing stuff up with assault rifles.

Good luck and hopefully you'll make some conversions or at least open their eyes.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 5:57:09 PM EDT
I planned an event last year that I called the Enduro shoot-off. It was an obstacle course with shooting stages. Each competitor would first run to stage 1 and then shoot a specific weapon at a specific target. Between each stage was some type of obstacle.. Each firing station required a different stance and used a different firearm.

example stage 1 was a pistol, kneeling and using a log as support. Stage 2 was a short barreled rifle using a tree for cover. Stage 3 was prone with a rifle shooting 25 yards. Stage 4 was a pistol standing upright.. Stage 5 was seating rifle @ 100 yards. Stage 6 was short barreled rifle standing unsupported. Stage 7 was shotgun standing.. Finally stage 8 was rifle, 50 yards concealed - I made them put a ghillie suit on and use a fence as support.

points were earned by accuracy and by time.

this forced people to slow down to shoot accurately. A perfect shot score beat a super fast time.

it was extremely challenging but great fun. Most of the guns were .22s. There was a 9mm sterling, an AR and a 12 gauge in there also.

e-mail me and I'll send you the Word document.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 6:05:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 6:08:11 PM EDT
Tell them to practice running in a low and serpentine manner?
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 6:11:14 PM EDT
They are all men? Give them guns and things to shoot. Fun things that move or ping. They will see why guns are awesome. You will be hailed a prophet.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 8:39:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/19/2013 10:29:16 PM EDT by Prime]
Starting out on paper targets would be good for initial instruction. No silhouettes, just bullseyes.

As soon as possible go to reactive targets. CB shorts and a bag of aluminum cans is a days worth of fun.

No lecturing. Don't make it indoctrination, make it fun. Having a dueling 10-22s station set up so they could compete with each other would be awesome and way cheaper than 5.56.

You need more people. No more than 3:1.
Good work you're doing.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 9:52:10 PM EDT
OP, I have instructed many brand new shooters. As others have already pointed out:


  • Don't try to supervise more than three at a time. It will get very dangerous. Get more volunteers if needed.

  • Start with a .22 cal, even an AR in .22 cal and work upward from there only after each shooter has demonstrated safe gun handling and accuracy.

  • Paper targets are essential to start with but some kind of non-paper target will make the experience much more fun. Tin cans, plastic bottles, clay targets on the berm... lots of potential.

  • I have found that most new shooters tire out in about 1.5 to 2 hours, so be mindful of that too.

Link Posted: 3/19/2013 9:58:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2013 6:39:42 AM EDT by AeroE]
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 10:01:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
Don't try to overdo it, as that is a lot of new shooters to watch over.


This...and i will start with 22s
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 10:17:36 PM EDT
Generic soda from the store makes a great cheapish reactive target that people love to shoot i taught both of my sisters with .22lrs and that. Plus if they are still antis at the end of the day they don't know about tanerite and can't add that to their list of whine. Just remember to bring a trash bag to put all the sticky blasted pieces of soda can in afterwards .

As has been said before be careful with putting too much trust in their safety skills I don't assume anyone has even the lowest amount of gun handling sense unless A) they were combat arms then I only assume a bare bones understanding or B) I've shot with them before.

NEVER take someones word and trust them completely without having experienced their safety skills first hand. For example I took some chairforce guys I worked with at the pentagon with me to a range once kid talked up his tactical Timmy abilities handed him a MSAR with a eotech on it explained the weapons safety to him he then shoots out a light downrange I stop him and go WTF he says "oh I couldn't find the reticle so I just started shooting".... his fun time was over

Good luck and hopefully you get some converts.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 10:20:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VBC:
Have them each shoot 10 rounds into a target at 10 yards and let them keep the target as a souvenir if they want.




With 15 people I would bet someone takes home a pristine piece of paper.
Link Posted: 3/19/2013 10:23:55 PM EDT
Build a gun. Just a zip gun will do. Something that can be made in an afternoon. Show him why a gun ban is nonsense.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 12:11:27 AM EDT
I would skip the tannerite for a lot of reasons. Besides people getting the wrong idea, it just seems to much you are going to have your hands full. I would also have them bench shoot to start with. That way is some one freaks out the rifle only falls a few inches to the table not all way to the ground. I would have at most 4 shooters at a time, even with two people watching.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 12:32:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
I would skip the tannerite for a lot of reasons. Besides people getting the wrong idea, it just seems to much you are going to have your hands full. I would also have them bench shoot to start with. That way is some one freaks out the rifle only falls a few inches to the table not all way to the ground. I would have at most 4 shooters at a time, even with two people watching.


That's some good advice right there.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 12:44:44 AM EDT
bowling pins are a lot of fun to shoot, and you can make a competition out of it. you should be able to get damaged ones pretty cheap at your local bowling alley.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 1:10:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By WindKnot1-1:
Divide them into two groups and have half of them hold the targets!


I like this

Link Posted: 3/20/2013 1:24:57 AM EDT
After reading this... http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/familys-home-raided-over-facebook-photo-of-childs-rifle.html
Tell him to fuck off and never speak to him again
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 1:28:37 AM EDT
My opinion is, you cannot change ones political views on guns by allowing them to fondle a weapon. The message of the 2nd amendment is not tangible. Much like the freedom they enjoy.

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