Posted: 6/21/2008 4:15:16 PM EDT
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See this: http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=723156 Should I leave it up? Should I have mod move it or hide it? How do I contact an Attorney, if thats the right thing to do.. |
I used to be a manager at Sam's Club. We never or would ever detain someone like that. We were always told to only approach a suspect if we could tell the suspect what he/she stole and where it was hidden. Even then, we never actually touched the person, except in self defense. The OP has a good case, and I would like to see him follow through with it. Think about it, these people didn't identify themselves properly and were basically attacking him and his family. To me, that is much worse than slipping on a puddle or pulling something of a shelf onto one's head, both of which are rock solid lawsuit cases, and are also the victim's fault most of the time. |
| Personally, I don't see the big deal. You went to leave the store and didn't have a receipt. Why not accompany security to the security room to clear things up? I never would try to bust out of the store if I had paid but didn't have a receipt. Fire away with an attorney...it will cost more time and money than it's worth. |
The person who originally detained him told him that he was not being detained. FWIW. |
What reason did they have? That I was a customer leaving the store with bagged merchandise? If that rises to the level of reasonable suspicion, you are saying that they have the right to grab anyone walking out the door, and detain them?? rr |
How about that you were leaving the store with merchandise without a receipt (and with atitude nonetheless)? |
They didn't know about the lost receipt until after they grabbed him by the back of the collar, and I'd have an attitude at that point also |
I had no attitude whatsoever until they grabbed me. I hadn't even spoken to anyone. Regardless, lets play the scenario different. Lets say I'm walking out, guy asks for my receipt, and I say no thanks. And keep walking. Would he be legally able to detain me? Does that constitute reasonable suspicion of shoplifting? If not, then what gave him the right to grab me in the first place? rr |
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OK Legal Eagles. This is from an Arizona Supreme Court decision. Do you still believe that ANY LP employee can physically detain you? 19 In Gortarez v. Smitty’s Super Valu, Inc., 140 Ariz. 97, 680 P.2d 807 (1984), the supreme court reviewed the history of the shopkeeper’s defense. In that case, two suspected shoplifters had been confronted by a security guard. Id. at 100-01, 680 P.2d at 810-11. The guard placed one of them, Gortarez, in a choke hold, injuring him. Gortarez sued the guard and the store. The supreme court reversed the trial court’s directed verdict for the defendants and held that the jury should determine whether the detention had been undertaken for a proper purpose and in a reasonable manner. Id. at 104-05, 680 P.2d at 814-15. 20 The supreme court explained that, under the common law, there was no “shopkeeper’s privilege” to arrest or detain a suspected thief because the privilege of a private citizen to arrest a misdemeanant was limited to crimes involving a breach of peace, which did not include shoplifting. Id. at 102, 680 P.2d at 812. Although a limited privilege might have permitted an owner in fresh pursuit of a thief to use reasonable force to recapture a chattel, the owner would be liable for any damages if he was mistaken about the facts, and “[t]he force privileged must [have] be[en] reasonable under the circumstances, and not calculated to inflict serious bodily harm. Ordinarily, the use of any force at all w[ould] not be justified until there ha[d] been a demand made for the return of the property.” Id. 21 The court acknowledged the “developing, common law ‘shopkeeper’s privilege,’” codified in A.R.S. § 13-1805, which provides in part: “A merchant, or his agent or employee, with reasonable cause, may detain on the premises in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable time any person suspected of shoplifting . . . for questioning or summoning a law enforcement officer.” Gortarez, 140 Ariz. at 102, 680 P.2d at 812, quoting former § 13-1805(C) (emphasis in Gortarez). The court emphasized that such a privilege only applied to a detention accomplished in a reasonable manner and noted that “the use of force is never privileged unless the resistance of the suspected thief makes the use of such force necessary for the actor’s self-defense.”5 Id. at 104, 680 P.2d at 814, citing Restatement (Second) of Torts § 120A cmt. h (1965). |
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If you feel you and or your family was 'violated' then call a few local attorneys period. The majority that I have dealt with give a free phone consultation anyway. They will tell you the next best step even if it does not involve them. I have put the phone down on an occasion or two, got advice, and did not pay for it. Then again, I have had a time or two when I had to make a few trips to the law office. Arfcom is full of good, bad, and even humorous advice. However, it will not give you the answers you seek like a live one on one with an attorney will. Good luck. edit<gr> |
Fixed it for you. I will be contacting an Attorney in the morning. I was kinda hoping for a recommendation or something. I have never talked to an Atty in AZ in my life. Do I just look for the guy on the back of the phonebook or what? rr |
Ask a friend or family member, Look in the phone book. A General Practice Attorney will point you in the right direction. Once again, many will give you good free advice regarding what to do or not to do during a consultation. After that it is up to you. More than one opinion is also a must. Just be aware of any fees. It has been noted here before to get an upfront price if you hire an attorney. The total package..not hourly. There are pros and cons to both. Also, what the fee would be if you decide to drop the case or attorney. There are also law firms that will take fees from any awards or settlements. Once again, any reputable attorney will point you in the right direction Look here www.lawyers.com/ edit:It isn't as bad as you may think if you never spoke with an attorney. You may feel relieved just doing so and not pursue anything. Best of luck |
What is your end goal? What do you expect to accomplish through a lawyer? I can see you maybe getting a couple of people fired, but what damages are you hoping the court will address that would make it worth the time and money involved? |
My end goal is to see the employees who were involved fired. I would also like to see Wal-Mart's asinine policy of receipt checking done away with. As far as damages, I don't know. I was assaulted. My kids are traumatized and have actually woke up having nightmares about this whole thing. My son is having trouble going to sleep. What's that worth? Nothing. It's not about money. But how do you think Wal-Mart will learn? Will they learn by me going in and talking to the Manager who doesn't give a shit or will they learn when they have to pay out $? rr |
These are good points. However, I must add as I did with my above post edit. Sometimes a free consultation with a lawyer is like going to a therapist. They can calm you down and talk sense into you. The outcome may be you just walk away and say fuck it. Some folks need that..others do not. |
The scenario described above is probably what happened. Maybe you didn't hear the greater ask for your receipt. I'm certain that's how they'll testify. I think that's sufficient to stop you at the door. How about complaining to Walmart corporate first, if your goal is to get someone fired? |
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To the folks telling the OP he was being difficult, have you considered how "difficult" having a grown man lay his hands on you without provocation may make ANYONE? According to the OP, he had a guy grab him from behind (while his children watched)without a verbal warning, and was not given a chance to orient or chill out, while the situation continued to escalate around him.... Not exactly the usual "can I see your receipt please" from someone's grandmother. My question is what "reasonable suspicion" did they have? I thought they pretty much had to see you steal something to pull that kind of crap? If the law states "reasonable suspicion," what is the minimum evidence necessary? Barney Fife LP's word? |
I have touched base with a few attorney's. They want to see the video before really committing to anything one way or the other. However, I have been told that its possible that refusal/inability to show a receipt could be construed as reasonable suspicion that you are a shoplifter. It depends what a jury thinks. One attorney did tell me the fact that I had an unbagged item (a 40lb weight set) could also constitute probable cause. He actually told me that it would be much better for a case if it were to happen to me pushing a cart with ONLY bagged items in it. Also, it would be beneficial to occur directly after leaving the registers, and not loitering at McDonald's and eating lunch. Food for thought.... rr rr |
The problem here is your states laws, which allow a business to detain someone for a misdemeanor. The only thing that might help you is if that particulars walmart's shoplifting policy sets certain conditions that must be met before they can detain you, which of course your case didnt meet. When they confirmed that you were not detained, it suggests that they had no reasonable cause to suspect you of shoplifting. You do not have to show your receipt to any store excepting ones that require a membership (Sams, Costco, etc). Refusing to show a receipt is not reasonable cause either. Also once you pay for an item, it becomes your personal property and is protected against unlawful searches and seizures. If you cannot get a lawyer that wants to run with this, as a last resort you should at least call the store manager, or regional manager and explain what happened and what you would like to see done about it. They might, maybe, just play ball with you to settle this quietly. |
The reason was, you made a purchase then went back in store and carried bags around with you. You stated you threw out the store receipt with the Mcd's trash. If I saw you go back in store after you checked out, I would have checked. I used to work armed security and made 36 arrest for shop lifting at one store in 6 months time. None of them were dismissed. |
BZZT. Wrong. I never went "back into" the store. MCD's is past the registers, 10 feet from the exit. Further, this guy was stopping EVERYONE and asking for a receipt. I just bypassed the line of people. He never actually asked for mine until he grabbed me. It is my opinion that I don't have to submit to a receipt check. I might be wrong. Its possible that declining a voluntary search results in reasonable suspicion and therefore the search is not voluntary at all... rr |
Well that definitely sheds some light on things. You left out in your original description the fact that the guy who "grabbed" you by the collar was asking everyone for a receipt and you intentionally bypassed the line. Sounds like you bypassed the line because it was your opinion prior to leaving the store that you didn't have to submit a receipt. |
Sorry I left that out. Didn't seem important to me. I don't believe I need to submit a receipt. I didn't feel like waiting in line. there were 3 other open "lines" with no one standing there so I walked that way. Does that mean I F'ed up? Since I didn't wait in line he had the right to grab me? What does that change, I really didn't think it was an important issue. rr |
Yes that was a important item to talk about. Around here must of the Walmarts have the McD's in the back of the store, So from your comments given, i thought you had made your purchase, went back to the back of the store with bags, then came back out. That would have raised suspisions in any security. asking for the reciept is legal here, and is done a lot. |
I won't sue Wal-Mart until an attorney tells me what's the best course of action. As far as setup, if that was the case, I would have had someone following me with a video camera and I certainly would never have involved my kids. They are still traumatized. rr |
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If I was you, I'd never go back to Walmart. Showing a receipt upon exiting the store is obviously just too much for you. Plus, you wouldn't want your collar to get wrinkled again. If I was Walmart, I'd get a RO that you could never step foot on its property ever again. |
The question is this: Where does it stop? Its incrementalism. Why should I HAVE to show a receipt to prove ownership of my property? What if next they decide that all customers need to be pat down prior to leaving? Will you still say the same? I doubt it. But I sure am glad I could bring your troll account out of hiding, whoever you are. rr |
Lets see. come in to the store,put items in the basket and then go to the registers to check out. The cashier checks out my selections, I pay for them and get a receipt. At that point the product is mine. If they suspect that I've stolen anything then call the police otherwise get out of my way before I file charges. If for some reason you come up from behind me without warning and grab the collar of my blouse I'm going to protect myself first. |
Contact an attorney, not just for yourself but it would help prevent this from happening to other people in the future. |
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Have you contacted the area people for Wally World? I think the outcome of a dialogue with them would be the determining factor. I don't know if they will fire someone at your request but a FTF apology from the LP thug and the store manager might go a long way towards resolving this, especially if your children are present. They were part of this and from your description in the other thread were pretty traumatized by this. If Wally World is of the up yours mentality by all means take them to court. I think you showed a lot of reserve. Kids or not I'd have gone off on someone who grabbed me by the collar. As an adult I expect to be treated with some respect. A simple, "Excuse me sir." would have gone a very long ways. To grab someone by the collar and then surround that person and shove them, with small children present, is nothing but assault and battery on all three of you in my mind. |
This is complete bullshit. Trying to detain me would result in you getting kidnapping and assault charges filed against the employee and business. Grocery stores hire undercover cops to get shoplifters for a reason: its illegal for a citizen to detain someone! |
You know, I might not be so pissed off about the whole thing if I would have at least got an apology. But the Asst. Manager who checked through my stuff never said sorry. The LP guy never said sorry when he found out I was on the up and up. I called the Store Manager, instead of her saying sorry, she said "You're lucky this happened now, and not a few weeks from now. Because my LP people are getting handcuff trained and you probably would have ended up cuffed on the ground." WHAT? Thats NOT the right answer. Even if she didn't mean it, a simple apology could have changed my whole outlook. Today, I received a call from the Market Office manager. I gave him a basic rundown of events, he said "Hm. Strange. I'll have to call you back on this." That's it. So, either he realizes there was a royal fuck-up or he doesn't give a shit. rr |
Their store..... Their policies. If you don't like how the store operates, don't frequent the business. The receipt aspect just seems to be a general hatred on ARFCOM. The receipts are usually pretty long, so how did you accidentally throw it away? Do you normally not keep receipts, so you can return items? Just some thoughts... |
What he said. Ignore the |
I know its hard to read. Do you work for Wal-Mart? So, you're perfectly OK with a store doing whatever the hell they want? If you walk into a store, shop, and then find out that you have to be strip-searched before you leave, should you just say OK, and not shop there again? Obviously it is very difficult for you to read. I never threw it away on purpose. My thinking is that I might have tossed it on accident at MCD's. Regardless, what I choose to do with my receipts is my business. rr |
For what it's worth, although you should, you do not always get a receipt. Could this *also* possibly have been what happened? Or do you distinctly remember being handed one, only to have lost it later? When I used to work for Wal-Mart (again, through a contractor), I would often do personal shopping there, after I was finished with work. One time I was stopped on exit for a bulge in my back pocket (it was my work camera, which you're supposed to declare upon entry, but which I quit doing after a few months because it would often add 20-30 minutes to my store visit, when I would encounter idiots at the door). I showed him all of the store pictures on it, but he still didn't believe me. Then he asked for my receipt (for the personal items), which I did not have, although all my items were all in bags. I told him that if he did not believe me (about the camera), to ask John, his Store Manager. He informed me that Store Managers don't even work on the weekends, that a Co-Manager was the person on-duty today. So I whipped out my ticket book and asked "Well then who signed this just ten minutes ago ?" Him:  "He's here," I said. "Call him." Anyway, it all got sorted out, eventually, and it was more of a bother than anything (probably because no one touched me). The camera was my fault. It was a risk I'd chosen to take, albeit based on prior attempts to declare my electronica resulting in lock-and-load Red Alerts. The receipt turned out to be a mutual mistake. When the receipt printer spit it out, it fell. The checker though I'd taken it, and I never saw the damn thing (that probably had something to do with her eyes, smile, or cleavage). 
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Just follow up on this and keep us posted. Although I do not shop at wal-mart (for various other reasons), I am still interested in the outcome. Bottom line as most have noted as well as yourself, it couldve been handled in a much better way, especially with kids around. What happened was completely out of line, period. I cant understand why some on here are taking wal-mart's side, that just blows my mind. Dont let this go. put aside the American mentality of procrastination, and follow up on this TODAY. |
Wal-Mart=major importer of chinese made products designed to kill of the american public,guarded instore by brain dead toothless inbreds who feel they are the chicom product police. I hate wally world for many reasons. I live in west bf where I have to drive 45min. to even get to that hellhole (which is the closest place with any inventory) and I still will not shop there. WAL-MART
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Why did you not call the police yourself and demand that they take your complaint? Walmart had reason to believe that an item with an anti-theft device was going out the door. You failed to keep your receipt with you. Walmart employees were in the wrong when they went hands-on. Given that you weren't willing to stay in the store and resolve the matter and you didn't have your receipt, you should have been prepared for what came next and immediately called the police. What I'm wondering is what happened between when you went through the sensors and the employee grabbed your cart? Have you sought legal counsel? Based on the facts as you present them, you were improperly detained and improperly touched. Whether you can assert false imprisonment and battery is another matter. There is a merchant's exception, which permits the store a reasonable amount of time to determine whether you, in fact, stole something. You might not have been reasonable in your refusal to assist them in determining whether or not you had something in your possession that you did not pay for. Physical touching that is not consented to can be actionable civilly and criminally. You should have filed a complaint and sought out counsel |
Quick rule: To prevail under a false imprisonment claim, a plaintiff must prove: (1) willful detention; (2) without consent; and (3) without authority of law.
Slade v. City of Phoenix, 112 Ariz. 298, 300, 541 P.2d 550, 552 (1975). The current statute, 13-1303, unlawful imprisonment, reads:
And, in 13-1301, Definitions:
Those aren't the only relevant statutes in the Arizona Revised Statutes. Let's not forget 13-1805, Shoplifting; detaining suspect; defense to wrongful detention; civil action by merchant; public services; classification:
For all you "never been to law school, let alone passed the bar" lawyers, read the parts highlighted in red. . . . Yes, I looked at Gortarez v. Smitty’s Super Valu, Inc., 140 Ariz. 97, 680 P.2d 807 (1984), and the issue in that case was whether the actions taken by the shopkeeper's employee were reasonable. It is fact-based, as you heard from lawyers with whom you consulted. I also went back and re-read your subsequent posts. You bypassed the guy who was aking everyone for a receipt. Yes, a store can do that. If you don't like it, don't shop there. It is significant that you failed to mention an important fact like that at the outset. It may well be that the Walmart employee was trying to get your attention, prior to grabbing you, and you failed to hear/see him until he went hands-on. Bottom line: The store employees may not have acted probably, but you really didn't help yourself. |
The store employees didn't do "whatever the hell they want[ed]." They had a right under Arizona law to detain you for a reasonable amount of time to determine whether you had shoplifted. By not having your receipt and by not cooperating with them, it sounds to me like you gave the employees additional reason to suspect you of shoplifting. What you do with your receipts may be your business, just as what they do with uncooperative patrons whose actions evince a reasonable suspicion of shoplifting is theirs, within reason. You handled the situation badly. Be a man about it and acknowledge it. |
| Use a common sense approach. Is it too much to show a receipt? How imposing is it to show a piece of paper that was just given to you by the store? Not much IMO, and most people haven't even had the chance to put the receipt away. It's not even close to a strip search, or even a pat down. Where does it end? It ends at the receipt for me. I would stop shopping at the store if they wanted to do a pat down. I wouldn't go to the store to start something and argue that they can't do it. I just wouldn't shop there. Forget about the law and use common sense. |