Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Posted: 1/12/2015 1:38:22 AM EST
Trying to figure out what the savings would be for a new heat pump.

The current unit is 15+ years old, Rheem (13 or 14 SEER) 3.5 ton. Uses the heat strips inside for aux heat. Not working well (lots of noise, seems to kick over to the aux heat). Repaired 1 1/2 years ago (new contactor, 3lbs R22...$500!). We're not going to keep sinking money into it.

We've had 4 estimates.

Amana 15 seer / 9 HSPF for $5800 (3.5 Ton unit).

Carrier and Am. Standard for about $7500 (3.5 Ton)....15 SEER / 9HSPF.

Trane for $8500 for the 15 SEER, $9500 for their 18 SEER and $12,000 for 20 SEER (10 HSPF)....all these are 3 Ton....this is the only guy that actually checked insulation, windows, etc.

Big, wide spread in the prices.....

If the higher SEER units will save money over time, I'll consider them...but how long to save it?

(We're an all-electric house, 3.5 people here (one away at school part of the time), and the 'budget billing' is $320/month through the electric co. We are at $0.13/kWh (that's including the transmission and generation costs). I've replaced most of the lights with low energy use (CFL or LED) bulbs, only run the dishwasher when it's full, etc....

Any thoughts?

Thanks!



Link Posted: 1/12/2015 9:10:40 AM EST
Without supplying you with any specific numbers, my experience is the the payback time on the very high SEER units can be pretty long. My advice is to purchase a middle of the road SEER unit. You don't need to spend the extra money for the latest in technology.

You need to get apples for apples bids to make a good decision. When one contractor is bidding "X" brand with "X" SEER and another is bidding "Y" brand with "Z" SEER you can't make an informed decision.
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 10:24:37 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By searchin4shacks:
Without supplying you with any specific numbers, my experience is the the payback time on the very high SEER units can be pretty long. My advice is to purchase a middle of the road SEER unit. You don't need to spend the extra money for the latest in technology.

You need to get apples for apples bids to make a good decision. When one contractor is bidding "X" brand with "X" SEER and another is bidding "Y" brand with "Z" SEER you can't make an informed decision.
View Quote



I figured the 15 SEER units were comparable (so I'd use the as the baseline). The 18/20 SEER Trane were the only ones that were much higher efficiency in a quote....but with the price difference, it would have to take a whole lot of saved energy to make up for that***********

Wasn't sure if the Trane/AM Standard were worth the extra $$ over the Amana (at the baseline 15 SEER unit). Then I'll get the Amana and AM Std. guys to let me know if they have a higher SEER unit.

One big thing the Amana has over the others is a 10 year Parts/Labor warranty (both are 10 years), vs. 1 or 2 year Labor and 10 year parts.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 10:58:37 AM EST
I read somewhere that you should save something like 7% per SEER improvement.

You would need to know what part of your electrical bill is your heating system.
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 12:35:12 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
I read somewhere that you should save something like 7% per SEER improvement.

You would need to know what part of your electrical bill is your heating system.
View Quote


That's the hard part (figuring that out)...and the other question I have is what 'SEER' is an older (like ours) heat pump...does the efficiency decrease with age (so if it started at 14 SEER, then it drops to 12 SEER at the end of it's life?)...that would give me a good way to estimate savings....
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 3:32:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/12/2015 3:35:19 PM EST by HighCaliber]
American Standard and Trane have 10 year parts and labor warranties available through the manufacturer. I would suggest going with the Trane or American Standard 18 SEER. The HSPF of the 18 and 20 are very close. Because of this we have only sold 18's, no 20's. The important difference between the 18/20 and the others is in the controls. The 18 and 20 control all the electric strip heat individually and only turn on what is necessary. They also have temperature lock out that prevents the electric heat from running at all when it is not needed. The compressors will run almost continuously providing just as much heating or cooling as necessary. The two hardest things on a motor is starting and stopping. If that can be avoided or minimized it will promote a long service life. The operation of the compressor is monitored by a computer and if any problem develops that would damage the compressor the computer will de-rate or shut down the system. Most other units have safety switches that will shut down the system, but turn it back on as soon as the safety switch has automatically reset, regardless of how many times it cycles or if the condition that caused the fault is rectified. It's not just about efficiency, comfort and reliability are also reasons to buy the 18.

If you have any other questions I will try to answer them. I'm an American Standard dealer and we have been selling the 18 since it came out. Once you understand all the benefits it's a simple decision.

Edit: American Standard and Trane are the same thing. Anybody who tells you different is ignorant.
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 3:37:23 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 3:58:36 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HighCaliber:
American Standard and Trane have 10 year parts and labor warranties available through the manufacturer. I would suggest going with the Trane or American Standard 18 SEER. The HSPF of the 18 and 20 are very close. Because of this we have only sold 18's, no 20's. The important difference between the 18/20 and the others is in the controls. The 18 and 20 control all the electric strip heat individually and only turn on what is necessary. They also have temperature lock out that prevents the electric heat from running at all when it is not needed. The compressors will run almost continuously providing just as much heating or cooling as necessary. The two hardest things on a motor is starting and stopping. If that can be avoided or minimized it will promote a long service life. The operation of the compressor is monitored by a computer and if any problem develops that would damage the compressor the computer will de-rate or shut down the system. Most other units have safety switches that will shut down the system, but turn it back on as soon as the safety switch has automatically reset, regardless of how many times it cycles or if the condition that caused the fault is rectified. It's not just about efficiency, comfort and reliability are also reasons to buy the 18.

If you have any other questions I will try to answer them. I'm an American Standard dealer and we have been selling the 18 since it came out. Once you understand all the benefits it's a simple decision.

Edit: American Standard and Trane are the same thing. Anybody who tells you different is ignorant.
View Quote



From what I could tell a 10 year warranty would be about $1k over the cost of the unit (for labor).



Will one 'increase' the value of the house at all?

Link Posted: 1/12/2015 4:04:31 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ZW17:
Google "HVACOPcost" or something close to that.

I am at work and don't have the link in my phone.

Allows you to input your different SEER ratings compre savings.

View Quote



Thanks.

Looked it up, but with the old system being...well...old...is it really the 14? SEER it says on the side, or does the efficiency drop off over time? I'll save close to $700 to $800/year in heat/cool costs with the 15 or 16 SEER systems, so it may pay for itself relatively quickly (assuming the old system is effectively an 11 SEER system that it defaults to in that calculator)


Wife's fixated on the 20 SEER unit because it can come with their (Trane) 'super-dooper-wonderful' Air Cleaner for $300 if you get the system (instead of $1200)...but not sure if it's worth that over a 4 or 5" Media filter setup instead...which I presume could be installed with just about any system...and also he pushed the humidifier (she's very, very easy to upsell)...ditto.

Link Posted: 1/12/2015 4:12:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/12/2015 4:16:32 PM EST by HighCaliber]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AFARR:



From what I could tell a 10 year warranty would be about $1k over the cost of the unit (for labor).



Will one 'increase' the value of the house at all?

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AFARR:
Originally Posted By HighCaliber:
American Standard and Trane have 10 year parts and labor warranties available through the manufacturer. I would suggest going with the Trane or American Standard 18 SEER. The HSPF of the 18 and 20 are very close. Because of this we have only sold 18's, no 20's. The important difference between the 18/20 and the others is in the controls. The 18 and 20 control all the electric strip heat individually and only turn on what is necessary. They also have temperature lock out that prevents the electric heat from running at all when it is not needed. The compressors will run almost continuously providing just as much heating or cooling as necessary. The two hardest things on a motor is starting and stopping. If that can be avoided or minimized it will promote a long service life. The operation of the compressor is monitored by a computer and if any problem develops that would damage the compressor the computer will de-rate or shut down the system. Most other units have safety switches that will shut down the system, but turn it back on as soon as the safety switch has automatically reset, regardless of how many times it cycles or if the condition that caused the fault is rectified. It's not just about efficiency, comfort and reliability are also reasons to buy the 18.

If you have any other questions I will try to answer them. I'm an American Standard dealer and we have been selling the 18 since it came out. Once you understand all the benefits it's a simple decision.

Edit: American Standard and Trane are the same thing. Anybody who tells you different is ignorant.



From what I could tell a 10 year warranty would be about $1k over the cost of the unit (for labor).



Will one 'increase' the value of the house at all?



I'm not sure on the warranty cost, but $1k is too much. You should be able to buy the extended warranty from any Trane or A/S dealer. I don't think it will increase the value of the house much if it already had a heat pump to begin with. If you go to sell the house and it has a 25 year old heap the buyer will probably ask for a discount though. When we bought our house the roof was done and the electrical panel was a fire hazard. $12k off the purchase price. They could have spent that and sold the house with a new roof and panel plus the added benefit of getting to use it for a while instead of buying it for someone else.

The only difference between the 18 and the 20 is the outdoor unit and it isn't a $2500 price difference. They aren't throwing in the air cleaner, you're buying it. The air cleaner works well, but we have had some issues with them that have been covered under warranty. Unless you have allergies or breathing problems the Honeywell F100 may be a better choice.
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 4:33:05 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AFARR:



Thanks.

Looked it up, but with the old system being...well...old...is it really the 14? SEER it says on the side, or does the efficiency drop off over time? I'll save close to $700 to $800/year in heat/cool costs with the 15 or 16 SEER systems, so it may pay for itself relatively quickly (assuming the old system is effectively an 11 SEER system that it defaults to in that calculator)


Wife's fixated on the 20 SEER unit because it can come with their (Trane) 'super-dooper-wonderful' Air Cleaner for $300 if you get the system (instead of $1200)...but not sure if it's worth that over a 4 or 5" Media filter setup instead...which I presume could be installed with just about any system...and also he pushed the humidifier (she's very, very easy to upsell)...ditto.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AFARR:
Originally Posted By ZW17:
Google "HVACOPcost" or something close to that.

I am at work and don't have the link in my phone.

Allows you to input your different SEER ratings compre savings.




Thanks.

Looked it up, but with the old system being...well...old...is it really the 14? SEER it says on the side, or does the efficiency drop off over time? I'll save close to $700 to $800/year in heat/cool costs with the 15 or 16 SEER systems, so it may pay for itself relatively quickly (assuming the old system is effectively an 11 SEER system that it defaults to in that calculator)


Wife's fixated on the 20 SEER unit because it can come with their (Trane) 'super-dooper-wonderful' Air Cleaner for $300 if you get the system (instead of $1200)...but not sure if it's worth that over a 4 or 5" Media filter setup instead...which I presume could be installed with just about any system...and also he pushed the humidifier (she's very, very easy to upsell)...ditto.



If you're system is ~15 years old, it's likely a 9 SEER unless it states 14 SEER on the side (which I THINK you said it does).

Having said that... If you HAVE a 14 SEER, you won't be saving $700-800 per year by jumping up 1-2 SEER numbers. The HSPF rating on both systems is likely the same and that's where the bulk of the savings can come from.

I ran these same numbers myself 2 years ago for the same size system. I installed a 13 SEER because I'd have to keep a higher SEER system 15+ years before I'd recoup the cost difference between the 2 units installed.


Additionally, I'd suggest shopping around some more and being specific on what you want the guys to quote so they're all quoting like systems. For reference, my system installed was $2,600 for a 13 SEER Carrier; my brand name installers quoted ~$5,000 and it wasn't until I shopped some of the local small businesses that I found a good price. I know prices vary by location, but that's still a LARGE difference.
Link Posted: 1/12/2015 4:58:37 PM EST
13 SEER. Rheem. Mfg 2/98

(Went outside to check the unit).
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 7:52:58 AM EST
Bump for any other opinions. I'm going to contact all of the guys to get a completely comparable system (15, 16 or 18 SEER from the above info) quote and have them also price some kind of air cleaner and humidifier to go with it to get (along with a labor warranty) to get a better comparison number.

Any thoughts on Trane/Am Standard vs. Amana (Goodman) stuff? (I'll add that a lot of what I read said that the installation is probably as important...if not more so...than the unit you choose).

Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 7:59:18 AM EST
Proper charging and sizing is more important than the brand. Contaminates in the line or being over/undersized will shorten the lifespan of components and not heat/cool effectively.

The big name brands often have more features and better quality but the cheaper units are cheaper to repair... Add to that even the cheap ones have a comparable warranty and I usually look at the 2nd tier. Trane -> Am.Standard, Carrier -> Bryant, etc...
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 8:06:14 AM EST
Be sure to get the right size. The only guy that did that is probably the best one to go with.
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 8:55:49 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AFARR:
Bump for any other opinions. I'm going to contact all of the guys to get a completely comparable system (15, 16 or 18 SEER from the above info) quote and have them also price some kind of air cleaner and humidifier to go with it to get (along with a labor warranty) to get a better comparison number.

Any thoughts on Trane/Am Standard vs. Amana (Goodman) stuff? (I'll add that a lot of what I read said that the installation is probably as important...if not more so...than the unit you choose).

Thanks!
View Quote





I'm actually a fan of Goodman stuff. They USED to be junk once upon a time but today, they are actually pretty well made. On another positive note, when you have to have it repaired (and all systems need repair at some point), parts for Goodman as cheaper than other companies. Also, Goodman has an excellent warranty. Lifetime on the compressor to the original purchaser and I think 10 years parts on everything else. My Goodman heat pump is about 6 yrs old and it's been repaired one time last summer. Minor repair and Goodman covered the part cost. I only had to pay labor (think it was about $100 for the repair).

Then only negative thing I can say about Goodman is that you have to watch out for the installer. There are some hacks out there installing Goodman systems so just make sure that whoever installs your system, they actually know what they are doing.
Link Posted: 1/13/2015 9:05:47 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:





I'm actually a fan of Goodman stuff. They USED to be junk once upon a time but today, they are actually pretty well made. On another positive note, when you have to have it repaired (and all systems need repair at some point), parts for Goodman as cheaper than other companies. Also, Goodman has an excellent warranty. Lifetime on the compressor to the original purchaser and I think 10 years parts on everything else. My Goodman heat pump is about 6 yrs old and it's been repaired one time last summer. Minor repair and Goodman covered the part cost. I only had to pay labor (think it was about $100 for the repair).

Then only negative thing I can say about Goodman is that you have to watch out for the installer. There are some hacks out there installing Goodman systems so just make sure that whoever installs your system, they actually know what they are doing.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
Originally Posted By AFARR:
Bump for any other opinions. I'm going to contact all of the guys to get a completely comparable system (15, 16 or 18 SEER from the above info) quote and have them also price some kind of air cleaner and humidifier to go with it to get (along with a labor warranty) to get a better comparison number.

Any thoughts on Trane/Am Standard vs. Amana (Goodman) stuff? (I'll add that a lot of what I read said that the installation is probably as important...if not more so...than the unit you choose).

Thanks!





I'm actually a fan of Goodman stuff. They USED to be junk once upon a time but today, they are actually pretty well made. On another positive note, when you have to have it repaired (and all systems need repair at some point), parts for Goodman as cheaper than other companies. Also, Goodman has an excellent warranty. Lifetime on the compressor to the original purchaser and I think 10 years parts on everything else. My Goodman heat pump is about 6 yrs old and it's been repaired one time last summer. Minor repair and Goodman covered the part cost. I only had to pay labor (think it was about $100 for the repair).

Then only negative thing I can say about Goodman is that you have to watch out for the installer. There are some hacks out there installing Goodman systems so just make sure that whoever installs your system, they actually know what they are doing.


The Rheem (17 years old this Feb) we have has the same compressor (Scroll) as the Goodman/Amana stuff.

The guys that gave the quote from Amana were in their own business for 30 years, have no BBB complaints (not a member of Angie's list to check there) and came recommended by a coworker.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 10:17:26 PM EST
have you looking into using mini splits? Also get a good heat load calc
Seeing how you are all electric the electric company might have rebates. And some models qualify for federal tax credit
Mitusbushi has a up to 8 zone unit that will put out 48k of heat at 0 outdoor
Link Posted: 1/16/2015 11:47:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2015 11:47:44 PM EST by Combat_Jack]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jamie930:
Mitusbushi has a up to 8 zone unit that will put out 48k of heat at 0 outdoor
View Quote


That is absolutely fantastic.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 11:56:44 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:


That is absolutely fantastic.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Originally Posted By jamie930:
Mitusbushi has a up to 8 zone unit that will put out 48k of heat at 0 outdoor


That is absolutely fantastic.



That is new for this year mulitzone hyper heat units. Hyper heat used to only available in single zone units
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 12:26:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jamie930:



That is new for this year mulitzone hyper heat units. Hyper heat used to only available in single zone units
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jamie930:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Originally Posted By jamie930:
Mitusbushi has a up to 8 zone unit that will put out 48k of heat at 0 outdoor


That is absolutely fantastic.



That is new for this year mulitzone hyper heat units. Hyper heat used to only available in single zone units

That would be an enormous cost difference vs just replacing existing equipment and reusing existing duct...
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:38:30 PM EST
yeah but I will bet you your electric costs are not going down EVER

My dad had a 2ton heap pump with electric back up, in Knoxville TN. Put in mini splits and his electric bill went down $30 the first month (May) and Nov was the coldest on record in TN. His electric bill was still lower than last Nov even after they raised the rates
Top Top