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Posted: 8/9/2005 12:33:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 12:40:48 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Sometims there are real tangible benefits to be a small business FFL with a limited client base of known repeat customers. Basically you pretty much instantly know who someone is or whom they were referred by. And today it payed dividends I'm sure.

Long story short over a year ago an individual tried to buy a gun from me. He was a new guy whom I made contact with at a local gunshow. He was the kind of person I normally prefer to cater to...ex military, somewhat knowledgeable about firearms and seemed to have a clue. Just one problem...he was denied on his first attempt to purchase a rifle. I gave him an appeals form and never saw him again. I didn't think anything of it until ATF subpoenaed the 4473 a few month later.

Well today he called me out of the blue wanting to inquire about purchasing several firearms and asking about "potential" background check issues.

It didn't dawn on me right away what was going on but up until that point I had been giving him the standard "canned answers" and referred him to FDLE to check his background status and kept explaining to him that there isn't any way around a background check on a firearms purchase. Then I finally realized who he was.

I have no doubt this guy snagged his ass on a nail with ATF and is now looking to offer up a few FFLS as part of a plea agreement. I'm so glad the phone call basically went nowhere.

Valuable lesson learned: Keep a list of ALL non approval 4473 people. They may be calling you back and it won't be anything you want any part of. Fortunately for me that is a real short list. I've only had one so far this year and he actually got it squared away on appeal so I know he is still "good to go."

And this is why I tend to (in the minds of some) be over protective of my license.

Kinda scary.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:35:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:36:10 PM EDT
But everyone just KNOWS that all gun dealers are crooked. They all sell guns "off the books" to people who can't get them legally. I mean, that's what the Brady Bunch says.

You done good.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:38:02 PM EDT
Smart cookie, CYA.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:38:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 12:38:28 PM EDT by mr_camera_man]
Good work... Next time, tell him "I can't help you, but call (dirtbag overpriced gunshop across town). They do this sort of thing all the time."
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:38:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Sometims there are real tangible benefits to be a small business FFL with a limited client base of known repeat customers. Basically you pretty much instantly know who someone is or whom they were referred by. And today it payed dividends I'm sure.

Long story short over a year ago an individual tried to buy a gun from me. He was a new guy whom I made contact with at a local gunshow. He was the kind of person I normally prefer to cater to...ex military, somewhat knowledgeable about firearms and seemed to have a clue. Just one problem...he was denied on his first attempt to purchase a rifle. I gave him an appeals form and never saw him again. I didn't think anything of it until ATF subpoenaed the 4473 a few month later.

Well today he called me out of the blue wanting to inquire about purchasing several firearms and asking about "potential" background check issues.

It didn't dawn on me right away what was going on but up until that point I had been giving him the standard "canned answers" and referred him to FDLE to check his background status and kept explaining to him that there isn't any way around a background check on a firearms purchase. Then I finally realized who he was.

I have no doubt this guy snagged his ass on a nail with ATF and is now looking to offer up a few FFLS as part of a plea agreement. I'm so glad the phone call basically went nowhere.

Valuable lesson learned: Keep a list of ALL non approval 4473 people. They may be calling you back and it won't be anything yuou want any part of. Fortunately for me that is a real short list. I've only had one so far this year and he actually got it squared away on appeal so I know he is still "good to go."

And this is why I tend to (in the minds of some) be over protective of my license.

Kinda scary.



If your in the firearms business "always cover your ass"is an excellent policy.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:38:51 PM EDT
i've had a 4473 go delayed with no return phone call so i went ahead and transferred it after the 3 working days but as of yet have never had one denied
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:40:29 PM EDT
Ain't you one of those folks that are flooding the streets withthose machineguns, you know, those Colt LE guns you put in the hands of the public?
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:40:59 PM EDT
Way to cover your ass though. Sorry to hear it.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:41:31 PM EDT
If you stick with the standard canned answers you shouldn't get in any trouble.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:42:51 PM EDT
Call FDLE and report the clown as requesting you circumvent the b/g check.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:43:56 PM EDT

Did the denied 4473 put the ATF on this guy, or was it probably something else during the interim year? If a 4473 is denied, does that mean you just committed an Attempted (something or other)?

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:44:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By racer934:
Call FDLE and report the clown as requesting you circumvent the b/g check.



He technically didn't do anything beyond make general inquiries. I'm gonna let that sleeping dog lay.

They will move to the next guy on the list and I'll keep flying below the radar.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:44:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 12:45:18 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]
Makes you feel kinda slimy when you have to deal with that ILK, don't it?

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:45:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pulpsmack:
Ain't you one of those folks that are flooding the streets withthose machineguns, you know, those Colt LE guns you put in the hands of the public?



Wait? You mean to tell me StyerAUG is an icecream truck driver?

Huh...and all that time I thought he worked at the welfare office, handing out "Independance Cards" to Hatian baby making machines...
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:45:46 PM EDT
So what's the issue?

No 4473, no background check, no sale. Simple as that. Why are you worried?
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:48:18 PM EDT
No . . . must resist temptation . . . must not ask that question . . . aaaagghhh . . . can't resist any longer . . . .

Is your dog o.k.?
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:48:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AvengeR15:
Did the denied 4473 put the ATF on this guy, or was it probably something else during the interim year? If a 4473 is denied, does that mean you just committed an Attempted (something or other)?




My guess is ATF followed up on the denied 4473 with a home visit. I imagine the guy probably owned a few firearms that he wasn't suppossed to have.

If a person is inelligible to own firearms and attempts to buy one then yes I think that is a crime in most states.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:49:08 PM EDT
I'm sure the Creole spouting food stamp paying SUV driving lady knows where this guy can get a few guns with no background check.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:49:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ElCamino:
So what's the issue?

No 4473, no background check, no sale. Simple as that. Why are you worried?



Not worried. Just not used to dealing with people who are trying to set me up.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:50:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
No . . . must resist temptation . . . must not ask that question . . . aaaagghhh . . . can't resist any longer . . . .

Is your dog o.k.?



Dogs are secure at an undisclosed location.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:52:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
No . . . must resist temptation . . . must not ask that question . . . aaaagghhh . . . can't resist any longer . . . .

Is your dog o.k.?



Dogs are secure at an undisclosed location.



Cheney is taking care of them?
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:54:23 PM EDT
You done good!



HH
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:55:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 12:59:05 PM EDT by CFII]
We keep all of our denied 4473's up at work. Our shop moves a rather large volume, but none of us are stupid enough to straw sell or backdoor sell a gun. The ATF visits us regularly. Good move on your part. No yellow form, no sale.

Ive been selling guns personally for about 4 months, and I have had ONE denied. A classic gangbanger. It wasnt a real suprise.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:57:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 12:58:29 PM EDT by ElCamino]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By ElCamino:
So what's the issue?

No 4473, no background check, no sale. Simple as that. Why are you worried?



Not worried. Just not used to dealing with people who are trying to set me up.



Fair enough. I was just in the presence of a failed 4473 transaction the other day at a gunshop. Inner city gang-banger type guys came in, tried to buy a Mossberg 500 "Persuader" riot gun. The guy couldn't even fill out the 4473 correctly. For the "Birthplace" question he circled the word "City". Also, he didn't understand the question about having been convicted a felony. Eventually, with much assistance, he completed the form and the 2 left to "go get something to eat" while the guy called it in. Came back denied - big surprise.

I don't think that was any sort of informant though, just somebody stupid enough to think he could be a gun from a store with a felony conviction.

ETA - They never did come back.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:58:01 PM EDT
And yet, while they are spending wasting their time doing this, my SBR application is now 121 days past "pending" and my inspector won't return my phone calls. Bastards.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 1:05:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Sometims there are real tangible benefits to be a small business FFL with a limited client base of known repeat customers. Basically you pretty much instantly know who someone is or whom they were referred by. And today it payed dividends I'm sure.

Long story short over a year ago an individual tried to buy a gun from me. He was a new guy whom I made contact with at a local gunshow. He was the kind of person I normally prefer to cater to...ex military, somewhat knowledgeable about firearms and seemed to have a clue. Just one problem...he was denied on his first attempt to purchase a rifle. I gave him an appeals form and never saw him again. I didn't think anything of it until ATF subpoenaed the 4473 a few month later.

Well today he called me out of the blue wanting to inquire about purchasing several firearms and asking about "potential" background check issues.

It didn't dawn on me right away what was going on but up until that point I had been giving him the standard "canned answers" and referred him to FDLE to check his background status and kept explaining to him that there isn't any way around a background check on a firearms purchase. Then I finally realized who he was.

I have no doubt this guy snagged his ass on a nail with ATF and is now looking to offer up a few FFLS as part of a plea agreement. I'm so glad the phone call basically went nowhere.

Valuable lesson learned: Keep a list of ALL non approval 4473 people. They may be calling you back and it won't be anything you want any part of. Fortunately for me that is a real short list. I've only had one so far this year and he actually got it squared away on appeal so I know he is still "good to go."

And this is why I tend to (in the minds of some) be over protective of my license.

Kinda scary.


-------------------------------------------
Please,
notify every FFL in your area of this piece of shit by name. You might save someone a lot of greif.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 1:11:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tommygun2000:

-------------------------------------------
Please,
notify every FFL in your area of this piece of shit by name. You might save someone a lot of greif.




I've made a few calls. But pretty much everyone I know would handle it the same way I did.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 1:15:06 PM EDT
I'm sure he just went around the corner and bought a machine gun from an ice cream truck.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 1:18:42 PM EDT
I got a "pending" once, but they called right back and said it was a mistake and changed it to a "proceed" I mean I hadn't made it out of the shop. I dunno. Wierd. Maybe some of the BATF agents lurking on the board can explain the process?
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 1:33:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
I got a "pending" once, but they called right back and said it was a mistake and changed it to a "proceed" I mean I hadn't made it out of the shop. I dunno. Wierd. Maybe some of the BATF agents lurking on the board can explain the process?



I've always wondered why I sail right through the process.

I have a fairly common first and last name, and every time I buy a firearm the dealer always acts surprised when they don't even bump my check to an operator.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 1:59:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:
And yet, while they are spending wasting their time doing this, my SBR application is now 121 days past "pending" and my inspector won't return my phone calls. Bastards.




Don't tell me - your inspector's name is Lucrecia.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:03:09 PM EDT
On one hand I'll not cry any tears over a bad FFL - on the other hand - just wow - fucking .gov using fucking scum bags to try and entrap decent people (or in this case, AUG).
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:11:12 PM EDT
Nice to know there are civil, law-abiding citizens still among us.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:12:49 PM EDT
It would be such a tragedy if this dirtbag was hit by a cement truck.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:16:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

They will move to the next guy on the list and I'll keep flying below the radar.




Your on their radar,
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:22:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:23:04 PM EDT
I bet everyone on this website has a file on em. Actually just at my local shooting club we don't have ANY local cops. BUT 5 of us have had cops come to where we work (all 5 of us work retail) and inexplicably know our names.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:28:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 2:29:37 PM EDT by fadedsun]
For the record I had nothing to do with this.




Seriously though, GJ Steyr.

Ben
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:33:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 2:35:45 PM EDT by 1IV]
A couple of years ago I was selling an Daewoo DR-200 rifle. I had a guy ask me if I wanted to do a partial trade, he asked me for my Licence, and I said drivers? Yep.. I gave it to him, and we did a deal for a Colt Goverment stainless, and 400$ in my pocket. I was like WOW! I did really well, as I had paid only $550 for the rifle in the first place. A little while later I was asked if I wanted to sell the pistol. I said "yep for $500" He bought it after negotiations for $450. The dealer bought it and asked if I knew who that guy was who I sold the rifle too? I did not, but I know alot of these guys, so This dealer tells me he is ATF, and to be careful not to go over my 12 documented sales. That I just got put on a list. I ended up seeing this guy acouple of times at different shows and he always recognized me and asked if I was sellin anything today?.... I was not always sellin, so I was safe, but They are out there...... Watch your backs.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:35:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
I bet everyone on this website has a file on em. Actually just at my local shooting club we don't have ANY local cops. BUT 5 of us have had cops come to where we work (all 5 of us work retail) and inexplicably know our names.


It's the nametag.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:39:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JavaMan:

Originally Posted By Greywolf2112:
And yet, while they are spending wasting their time doing this, my SBR application is now 121 days past "pending" and my inspector won't return my phone calls. Bastards.




Don't tell me - your inspector's name is Lucrecia.



Nope - Butch Shipman. I've called him 3 times this week, left messages, never returns them.

I'm thinking of contacting my congressman and having HIS office call Mr. Shipman to find out why they've been sitting on my SBR and suppressor app, when I've done this numerous times before. They sure didn't have a problem cashing my check 5 months ago.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:40:27 PM EDT
S.S.S?


Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:47:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By copenhagen:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
<snipped by Wobblin' Goblin>


If your in the firearms business "always cover your ass"is an excellent policy.


Good thing you copied and reposted Steyr's whole post. We never would have know what the hell you were talking about.

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:49:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tommygun2000:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
<snipped by Wobblin' Goblin>


-------------------------------------------
Please,
notify every FFL in your area of this piece of shit by name. You might save someone a lot of greif.


Same goes for you, too.

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 3:14:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 3:20:06 PM EDT by mobius]

Originally Posted By 1IV:
The dealer bought it and asked if I knew who that guy was who I sold the rifle too? I did not, but I know alot of these guys, so This dealer tells me he is ATF, and to be careful not to go over my 12 documented sales. That I just got put on a list. I ended up seeing this guy acouple of times at different shows and he always recognized me and asked if I was sellin anything today?.... I was not always sellin, so I was safe, but They are out there...... Watch your backs.



I wish I had a buck everytime some gunshow dealer pointed out a ATF agent at a gunshow, I would have enough to buy a new car...........word of advice, take the , "that guys is ATF" with a truck load of salt.......just don't do anything shady and you won't have nothing to worry about.

good example of the type of paranoia some dealers have, that see ATF everywhere including their dreams, I personally know this one guy, who I use to work with at BAILEY CONTROLS, I know darn well he isn't ATF, just a engineer that like firearms, when BAILEY CONTROLS was bought by ABB, I was downsized and he stayed on, now I admit the guy isn't your typcially gun show attendee, he wears a nice shirt and slacks, and is neat in appearance, hair combed etc...but he would stop by my table and shoot the shit ......well this one time, as soon as he left, some green teeth hillbilly dealer, who's personal hygine has much to be desired, comes up to me and says, "you know that guy is ATF?"..........so I played along, and said, "no, really, how do you know?" he points to another green teeth FFL, on the other side of the room and say, "that guy knows him and he is ATF"

so I would say, there are more ATF agents in dealer's heads then actually are at gun shows. these morons see ATF everywhere.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 3:25:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
I bet everyone on this website has a file on em. Actually just at my local shooting club we don't have ANY local cops. BUT 5 of us have had cops come to where we work (all 5 of us work retail) and inexplicably know our names.


It's the nametag.

None of us wear them. I work in a damn gas station, they don't need to know my name. All they need to do is pay for their shit and get out. We're dead center in a circle of stores that have been robbed lately. They are going to get us too. I carry at work (arkansas state law allows for this) and my boss made some comments to me about how that's good, he'd rather clean up someones blood than give them 200 bucks. I told him kiss my ass, only way I'm drawing down on someone is if I think I can get drawn and fire at least 2 rounds before they know wth hit them. But if I get a gun put in my face that drawer is coming open, along with the other drawer, and hell take some twinkies on your way out. I think that if my best chance for living through it is giving them everything, then they get everything. He thinks if I see a weapon I should shoot them no matter what. On the other hand, the entire front of my store is glass with few obstructions, good lighting facing down and away and I watch the entire wall like a hawk. I think I'd have enough advanced notice to have my gun out, but still semi concealed where I could kill em as soon as I saw steel. I dunno, every situation is so different it's hard to predict the best way to react before hand.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 3:26:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By ElCamino:
So what's the issue?

No 4473, no background check, no sale. Simple as that. Why are you worried?



Not worried. Just not used to dealing with people who are trying to set me up.



Another way you could have played this... string the guy along, then concact the local ATF office and inform them of this guy's M.O. and let them know how he seems to be trying to break the federal laws they primarily investigate. If he's not an informant, they might want to take action on him and/or they learn that you're sharp. If he is working along with them at least they know you're not going to be someone they'll need to worry about.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 3:29:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 3:29:49 PM EDT by npd233]

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
I bet everyone on this website has a file on em. Actually just at my local shooting club we don't have ANY local cops. BUT 5 of us have had cops come to where we work (all 5 of us work retail) and inexplicably know our names.


It's the nametag.

None of us wear them. I work in a damn gas station, they don't need to know my name. All they need to do is pay for their shit and get out. We're dead center in a circle of stores that have been robbed lately. They are going to get us too. I carry at work (arkansas state law allows for this) and my boss made some comments to me about how that's good, he'd rather clean up someones blood than give them 200 bucks. I told him kiss my ass, only way I'm drawing down on someone is if I think I can get drawn and fire at least 2 rounds before they know wth hit them. But if I get a gun put in my face that drawer is coming open, along with the other drawer, and hell take some twinkies on your way out. I think that if my best chance for living through it is giving them everything, then they get everything. He thinks if I see a weapon I should shoot them no matter what. On the other hand, the entire front of my store is glass with few obstructions, good lighting facing down and away and I watch the entire wall like a hawk. I think I'd have enough advanced notice to have my gun out, but still semi concealed where I could kill em as soon as I saw steel. I dunno, every situation is so different it's hard to predict the best way to react before hand.



Dusty_C - Are you our troll of the month? Damn, get a different hobby already.

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 3:35:31 PM EDT
I've gotta call on this.

According to BoreSighted and Quien the atf is made up of all great guys and gun lovers like us. They're "great" and would never do something like pressure someone into trying to get you to make an illegal transaction so that they can get you too.

The atf is your friend.

Thirsty?


Link Posted: 8/9/2005 3:40:39 PM EDT
Well good. I did not sweat it that much.... Seemed a lil paranoid, but it was such a good deal to sell that rifle for that much, I kinda wondered if it was not the cheese in the trap.
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