[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Gun Jesus on the P320 Debacle (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 5/14/2025 7:28:19 PM EDT
 A Thoughtful & Nuanced Take on SIG's P320 Nightmare The best explanation I have seen this far. |
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Quoted: Wasn't me. They've been calling him Gun Jesus here for years. Quoted: Quoted: Who named Ian ‘Gun Jesus?   Wasn't me. They've been calling him Gun Jesus here for years. I have heard people call him that on another forum and it is comically fitting. Ian is a nice dude, looks like Jesus, knows about guns, etc. I LMAO every time. Lol |
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Quoted: His hair did. Quoted: Quoted: Who named Ian ‘Gun Jesus? His hair did. Really? I thought it was the Matthew Quigley van Dyke beard & hair. Westerns & swashbucklers have van Dykes like Ian’s. Tally-Ho! I bet he gets asked to be D’Artagnan or one of the musketeers. Or, maybe a Renaissance fair or 2. Regardless…a good summary & I’d bet an accurate guess. |
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I want my to see a pistol and the accompanying holster and belt that has “gone off by itself “ to be tested by someone like H. P. White Laboratories (defunct now) test try to reproduce the uncommanded discharge. When the video comes out I’ll believe that the gun ‘goes off by itself’. No shirttail, pebble , or flexible or partially non trigger covering or booger finger on the trigger is really causing the gun to discharge. |
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Quoted: I'm watching it, and liking it, but he's confusing tolerance stacking with out of tolerance. That could end up being too technical and lengthy discussion, even though I agree with you. However, tolerance stacking may be the case when the tolerances were written too wide. This is happens when two components come from different manufacturers. Such as a container and a closure. Two different companies make the items, both to their specifications; but the resulting match-up of the components can fail when the tolerances stack the wrong way. In this case, because all the parts are designed by Sig and manufactured under their direct control; that possibility should be part of the total design cycle and the tolerances written where it cannot happen. I agree with you, it looks to be OOS manufacture parts. I think the difference with stamped vs MIM in this case could be that stamped parts will have a closer tolerance than MIM if the processing conditions of the MIM process have unknown or unaccounted for shrink factors. I am not an expert in MIM and maybe someone can explain this. It may be a factor of process temperature and/or a cooling or curing rate; or a density variation in the binder or the metal. I can see that some variation there would be more likely than it would with a stamped part. |
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thus* |
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Quoted: I want my to see a pistol and the accompanying holster and belt that has “gone off by itself “ to be tested by someone like H. P. White Laboratories (defunct now) test try to reproduce the uncommanded discharge. When the video comes out I’ll believe that the gun ‘goes off by itself’. No shirttail, pebble , or flexible or partially non trigger covering or booger finger on the trigger is really causing the gun to discharge. It'll be fine. Send it. 
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Not a new take and he pretty much says as much. He doesn’t take credit for coming up with the theory. However, what he leaves out is: if that theory is true, it’s pretty easy to test. Test the guns that have discharged and recreate the situation. Go beyond recreating it and do everything you can to replicate it. Smack it, twist it, apply pressure then jar it. Heat it, cool it. Soak it in oil, try it bone dry. Test it at high altitude, test at sea level. Takata airbags are a good example. Some would explode when deployed. The evaluated and eventually found high heat and humidity degraded the propellant. From my understanding, no one has been able to replicate the discharges, even with the “suspect” pistols. If parts are out of spec, they don’t suddenly become better. They are out of spec yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Good theory. Should be relatively easy to prove. The original drop issue was not only replicable with each pistol that did it, but across most samples. Not so with this. Maybe sometime soon, someone will determine that the issue is replicable. Maybe someone will uncover some top secret internal memos from SIG that show they know what causes it. Until then, the most likely explanation is poor handling. |
 Almost A Thoughtful & Nuanced Take Focustripp, lol. The butthurt. |
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Well done and essentially saying what Ben and the rest of the non-Sig shills have been saying- Cohen sucks dead syphalittic donkeys and his lack of leadership and poor QC has driven another company into the ground. Fire Ron, quit making parts in India and put a German engineer in charge. Drop the gun (not literally  ) or better yet, just pull a Glock and introduced a next generation of perfection with better QC and a striker that's not essentially cocked.Edited into two paragraphs since apparently it wasn't clear that adding a solution was my own comments, not Ian's. For the really autistic- what I took from Ian's video was him saying in a much more polite way that Sig has a leadership problem. |
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Quoted: Not a new take and he pretty much says as much. He doesn’t take credit for coming up with the theory. However, what he leaves out is: if that theory is true, it’s pretty easy to test. Test the guns that have discharged and recreate the situation. Go beyond recreating it and do everything you can to replicate it. Smack it, twist it, apply pressure then jar it. Heat it, cool it. Soak it in oil, try it bone dry. Test it at high altitude, test at sea level. Takata airbags are a good example. Some would explode when deployed. The evaluated and eventually found high heat and humidity degraded the propellant. From my understanding, no one has been able to replicate the discharges, even with the “suspect” pistols. If parts are out of spec, they don’t suddenly become better. They are out of spec yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Good theory. Should be relatively easy to prove. The original drop issue was not only replicable with each pistol that did it, but across most samples. Not so with this. Maybe sometime soon, someone will determine that the issue is replicable. Maybe someone will uncover some top secret internal memos from SIG that show they know what causes it. Until then, the most likely explanation is poor handling. @BuddyChryst SIG did not discover the drop issue. Oklahoma Outdoors did. SIG said in MACs video they did not test the pistols for that/in that way. What else have they missed. If they can't find it who can? It will have to be someone outside SIG. SIG denied the drop issue until it was made public. |
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I like Ian, but as he says he has no evidence. "Tolerance stacking" is commonly misused by non-designers and non-engineers. I don't mean if you aren't a designer or engineer you can't understand tolerances I'd gladly discuss them with you. Just be wary of YouTube commentaries. There are a lot of scenarios: 1) The designs have the appropriate tolerances and parts meet the print. Obviously statistics come into play and how much are you willing to pay for reduction of unfavorable conditions. Even 6 sigma allows for failures of parts and if you can't accept failures you either play the chance game, have redundant systems, or test 100%. 2) The designs have appropriate tolerances but the parts don't meet the print. Redundant safties may mitigage or eliminate the risk of a system failure. 3) The designs have the wrong tolerances. Also, talking about Sig as an entity... they may or may not have full understanding of the situation. Some people may have full knowledge but people at the top don't or ignore it. We need to be careful in personifying a corporation as a single entity. Ian's video does not discuss this nor does he have any evidence the design is sound, tolerances are valid, parts do or don't meet the print, or does the system have ways to mitigate part failure. Also fuck SigUSA. |
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Quoted: Well done and essentially saying what Ben and the rest of the non-Sig shills have been saying- Cohen sucks dead syphalittic donkeys and his lack of leadership and poor QC has driven another company into the ground. Fire Ron, quit making parts in India and put a German engineer in charge. Drop the gun (not literally ) or better yet, just pull a Glock and introduced a next generation of perfection with better QC and a striker that's not essentially cocked. |
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Quoted: I want my to see a pistol and the accompanying holster and belt that has "gone off by itself " to be tested by someone like H. P. White Laboratories (defunct now) test try to reproduce the uncommanded discharge. When the video comes out I'll believe that the gun 'goes off by itself'. No shirttail, pebble , or flexible or partially non trigger covering or booger finger on the trigger is really causing the gun to discharge. |
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Quoted: I like Ian, but I thought ARF didn't like him because he supported ANTIFA or something He had an association with Karl, who went off the deep end and full on ANTIFA. So everyone turned on Ian. Who was already distancing himself from Karl (or Carl, or whatever, the guy really isn't worth the memory space to remember that rube's name). After Karl went full-on balls-deep nuts and tranny love - I guess because he found a dude who dressed up like a girl to rub his privates, at long last - or something like that. Ian pretty much walked away from the guy. Yet some people still hate on him, because he once knew the guy, so he must be communist too by association. It was the typical absurd GD unattainable purity test failure, and in general only represents a few loud-mouths. Most folks are cool with Ian. I am. As to Ian's video, its pretty good. I think he gives SIG too much of a pass on the drop test. And I think it's a bad gun design where parts just slip or fail when fouled just so and vibrated just so. "Tolerance stacking" isn't that complete of an explanation, and I have doubts a QC improvement alone will fix it |
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Quoted: Test the guns that have discharged and recreate the situation. Go beyond recreating it and do everything you can to replicate it. Smack it, twist it, apply pressure then jar it. Heat it, cool it. Soak it in oil, try it bone dry. Test it at high altitude, test at sea level. SIG whips out inexpensive models of dubious design and outsourced Indian components. Their brand is focused on fashionable appearance options. |
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Quoted: Well done and essentially saying what Ben and the rest of the non-Sig shills have been saying- Cohen sucks dead syphalittic donkeys and his lack of leadership and poor QC has driven another company into the ground. Fire Ron, quit making parts in India and put a German engineer in charge. Drop the gun (not literally ) or better yet, just pull a Glock and introduced a next generation of perfection with better QC and a striker that's not essentially cocked. |
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Quoted: I like Ian, but as he says he has no evidence. "Tolerance stacking" is commonly misused by non-designers and non-engineers. I don't mean if you aren't a designer or engineer you can't understand tolerances I'd gladly discuss them with you. Just be wary of YouTube commentaries. There are a lot of scenarios: 1) The designs have the appropriate tolerances and parts meet the print. Obviously statistics come into play and how much are you willing to pay for reduction of unfavorable conditions. Even 6 sigma allows for failures of parts and if you can't accept failures you either play the chance game, have redundant systems, or test 100%. 2) The designs have appropriate tolerances but the parts don't meet the print. Redundant safties may mitigage or eliminate the risk of a system failure. 3) The designs have the wrong tolerances. Also, talking about Sig as an entity... they may or may not have full understanding of the situation. Some people may have full knowledge but people at the top don't or ignore it. We need to be careful in personifying a corporation as a single entity. Ian's video does not discuss this nor does he have any evidence the design is sound, tolerances are valid, parts do or don't meet the print, or does the system have ways to mitigate part failure. Also fuck SigUSA. |
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Quoted: Bruh.... https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/874/225/9c3.jpg_large I actually have that hanging in my kitchen. Quoted: Quoted: Who named Ian ‘Gun Jesus? Bruh.... https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/874/225/9c3.jpg_large I actually have that hanging in my kitchen. I like it. It is written in the book. 
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Quoted: SIG did not discover the drop issue. Oklahoma Outdoors did. SIG said in MACs video they did not test the pistols for that/in that way. I do not believe this to be correct. After the military selected the P320/M18 they did more testing on it and discovered the drop issue. They let SIG know and SIG came out with the modified parts. |
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Quoted: @BuddyChryst SIG did not discover the drop issue. Oklahoma Outdoors did. SIG said in MACs video they did not test the pistols for that/in that way. What else have they missed. If they can't find it who can? It will have to be someone outside SIG. SIG denied the drop issue until it was made public. Quoted: Quoted: Not a new take and he pretty much says as much. He doesn’t take credit for coming up with the theory. However, what he leaves out is: if that theory is true, it’s pretty easy to test. Test the guns that have discharged and recreate the situation. Go beyond recreating it and do everything you can to replicate it. Smack it, twist it, apply pressure then jar it. Heat it, cool it. Soak it in oil, try it bone dry. Test it at high altitude, test at sea level. Takata airbags are a good example. Some would explode when deployed. The evaluated and eventually found high heat and humidity degraded the propellant. From my understanding, no one has been able to replicate the discharges, even with the “suspect” pistols. If parts are out of spec, they don’t suddenly become better. They are out of spec yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Good theory. Should be relatively easy to prove. The original drop issue was not only replicable with each pistol that did it, but across most samples. Not so with this. Maybe sometime soon, someone will determine that the issue is replicable. Maybe someone will uncover some top secret internal memos from SIG that show they know what causes it. Until then, the most likely explanation is poor handling. @BuddyChryst SIG did not discover the drop issue. Oklahoma Outdoors did. SIG said in MACs video they did not test the pistols for that/in that way. What else have they missed. If they can't find it who can? It will have to be someone outside SIG. SIG denied the drop issue until it was made public. Never said it was SIG or needs to be. And drop tests are very specific. Here’s the link to SAAMI’s standard: https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/SAAMI-Z299.5-2023-Abusive-Mishandling-Approved-9-25-2023.pdf California probably has more. None of the include -30 degrees. So it passed all tests. Probably also why they didn’t recall; it met standards. Maybe the standards need to be updated, and maybe there’s other reasons. I’m just speculating. But I used the drop issue to illustrate how they’re different: one was replicable and proved there is a design/mechanical issue, the other is not replicable (yet) and therefore is most likely user induced. And don’t you think SIG’s competitors are testing SIGs themselves? If you can prove a faulty design, you punch your competition in the teeth and grab contracts from under them. They’re probably motivated more than anyone. |
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Quoted: who is a firearms expert. Who claimed a transferrable WW1 French St Etienne MG with battle damage that he pimped for Rock Island auction was irreparable and a wall hanger. Buddy has it running a few days after it was bought for a really low price...lol Or thinks the garand was designed for M2 ball. No he someone who reads Wikipedia then does a video about a gun and has become famous for doing that. |
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Quoted: Who doesn't know what the extractor on a P38 looks like... Who claimed a transferrable WW1 French St Etienne MG with battle damage that he pimped for Rock Island auction was irreparable and a wall hanger. Buddy has it running a few days after it was bought for a really low price...lol Or thinks the garand was designed for M2 ball. No he someone who reads Wikipedia then does a video about a gun and has become famous for doing that. Perhaps he doesn't live up to the weaponised autism of GD, can make mistakes, and isn't a manufacturer or rebuilder of receivers, but he is a firearms expert compared to 99.9% of the population. |
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Quoted: @BuddyChryst SIG did not discover the drop issue. Oklahoma Outdoors did. SIG said in MACs video they did not test the pistols for that/in that way. What else have they missed. If they can't find it who can? It will have to be someone outside SIG. SIG denied the drop issue until it was made public. The number one SIG subject matter expert, by his own description, Bruce Gray had this to say about the initial drop issues in 2017: Attached File Attached File Attached File It amazes me that given Cohen's reputation, SIG's failure and outright denial of the 2017 drop issue until the OO video, and the sheer weight of current events, that some people are still 'prove it to me/it's a conspiracy by haters'. |
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Quoted: Who doesn't know what the extractor on a P38 looks like... Who claimed a transferrable WW1 French St Etienne MG with battle damage that he pimped for Rock Island auction was irreparable and a wall hanger. Buddy has it running a few days after it was bought for a really low price...lol Or thinks the garand was designed for M2 ball. No he someone who reads Wikipedia then does a video about a gun and has become famous for doing that. Quoted: Quoted: who is a firearms expert. Who claimed a transferrable WW1 French St Etienne MG with battle damage that he pimped for Rock Island auction was irreparable and a wall hanger. Buddy has it running a few days after it was bought for a really low price...lol Or thinks the garand was designed for M2 ball. No he someone who reads Wikipedia then does a video about a gun and has become famous for doing that. LOL ya'll are my people. Attached File |
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Quoted: Exactly right - except for the fact that Ian didn't say ANY of that. Quoted: Quoted: Well done and essentially saying what Ben and the rest of the non-Sig shills have been saying- Cohen sucks dead syphalittic donkeys and his lack of leadership and poor QC has driven another company into the ground. Fire Ron, quit making parts in India and put a German engineer in charge. Drop the gun (not literally ) or better yet, just pull a Glock and introduced a next generation of perfection with better QC and a striker that's not essentially cocked.He said they have some QC problems, which appears to be the root of the problem (and not only with the 320 series)- I took some poetic license when combining that with other's comments. I suppose I should have made the second part of the post, how to deal with the issue, another paragraph- I'll edit that above since apparently it's not clear enough. If you have publicly known problems within your company and your president continues to double down and throw more money at "influencers" and lawyers than fixing that problem then the board and shareholders need to hold the top person/people accountable. Speaking of Ben.  Sig fires back |
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Quoted: He said they have some QC problems, which appears to be the root of the problem (and not only with the 320 series)- I took some poetic license when combining that with other's comments. I suppose I should have made the second part of the post, how to deal with the issue, another paragraph- I'll edit that above since apparently it's not clear enough. If you have publicly known problems within your company and your president continues to double down and throw more money at "influencers" and lawyers than fixing that problem then the board and shareholders need to hold the top person/people accountable. Speaking of Ben.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlW5prYEytcQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well done and essentially saying what Ben and the rest of the non-Sig shills have been saying- Cohen sucks dead syphalittic donkeys and his lack of leadership and poor QC has driven another company into the ground. Fire Ron, quit making parts in India and put a German engineer in charge. Drop the gun (not literally ) or better yet, just pull a Glock and introduced a next generation of perfection with better QC and a striker that's not essentially cocked.He said they have some QC problems, which appears to be the root of the problem (and not only with the 320 series)- I took some poetic license when combining that with other's comments. I suppose I should have made the second part of the post, how to deal with the issue, another paragraph- I'll edit that above since apparently it's not clear enough. If you have publicly known problems within your company and your president continues to double down and throw more money at "influencers" and lawyers than fixing that problem then the board and shareholders need to hold the top person/people accountable. Speaking of Ben. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlW5prYEytcAnd that's my problem with Ian's video. He blames the issue on QC problems. I think its a design problem. A design where critical safety aspects fail - be it by being designed to be overly sensitive beyond industry standards, failing to QC or tolerance variability. And/or to environment factors. Don't actually care - the heart of that is a design issue, and that needs to be corrected. Only way to correct that, is to abandon that design, IMHO. |
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Quoted: And that's my problem with Ian's video. He blames the issue on QC problems. I think its a design problem. A design where critical safety aspects fail - be it by being designed to be overly sensitive beyond industry standards, failing to QC or tolerance variability. And/or to environment factors. Don't actually care - the heart of that is a design issue, and that needs to be corrected. Only way to correct that, is to abandon that design, IMHO. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well done and essentially saying what Ben and the rest of the non-Sig shills have been saying- Cohen sucks dead syphalittic donkeys and his lack of leadership and poor QC has driven another company into the ground. Fire Ron, quit making parts in India and put a German engineer in charge. Drop the gun (not literally ) or better yet, just pull a Glock and introduced a next generation of perfection with better QC and a striker that's not essentially cocked.He said they have some QC problems, which appears to be the root of the problem (and not only with the 320 series)- I took some poetic license when combining that with other's comments. I suppose I should have made the second part of the post, how to deal with the issue, another paragraph- I'll edit that above since apparently it's not clear enough. If you have publicly known problems within your company and your president continues to double down and throw more money at "influencers" and lawyers than fixing that problem then the board and shareholders need to hold the top person/people accountable. Speaking of Ben. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlW5prYEytcAnd that's my problem with Ian's video. He blames the issue on QC problems. I think its a design problem. A design where critical safety aspects fail - be it by being designed to be overly sensitive beyond industry standards, failing to QC or tolerance variability. And/or to environment factors. Don't actually care - the heart of that is a design issue, and that needs to be corrected. Only way to correct that, is to abandon that design, IMHO. Thinking about it more, I agree, and apparently unwittingly, it's why I initially suggested they change the striker under tension design. If Glock can have five generations of perfection, and apparently coming up on number six, there's no reason why Sig couldn't have said that in the interest of safety and to ease people's minds they're making some changes. Everybody seems to have forgotten all of the Glock grenade jokes and issues with poor reliability when they had lights installed, etc. Had Sig just owned up to the situation and made some changes none of this would have become an issue like it has and, like the Glock grenade jokes, it would be forgotten about. I liked the 320s I've shot, but I'm glad I didn't end up buying one. |