It looks like there are a number of people out there tinkering with their Prius cars and adding electrical storage capacity to them by adding extra batteries and solar panels to the cars.  Another guy is adding capacitors instead of batteries.  Apparently, the ability of the Prius to run in electric-only mode is a huge factor in being able to stretch electrical usage in these cars.  Just with solar panels attached to the cars current owners are stretching an extra 3 miles a day in range on free electricity every day.

General stats say that most people drive 35-40 miles a day, so this is about an 8-10% reduction in fuel usage.  I think this is great and I hope all the car manufacturers get their butts in gear and offer a vehicle like this.  An immediate ten percent reduction in US gasoline usage would be a great thing and would drop gasoline prices across the board.

Plug-ins use just electricity for the first 8 or 10 miles, and a charge to carry your car that far is about five cents right now.  So, your first 8 are essentially free, you get 3 miles out of the solar panels for the day so that's 11 for free, and then the 55MPG Prius carries you for the remaining 29 miles at 55MPG means you burned about half a gallon of gas that day.  How cool is that?  This is great news to me.  My Honda Civic, even at 40MPG, would burn over a gallon a day... maybe three times as much gas?  That's the same difference in fuel efficiency that a Honda Civic has over a Viper or a Suburban.

Somebody's gonna get fucking rich off this technology, and it could be the guy in the garage next to you.  Custom conversion kits for cars... this is gonna be huge.

dupe-o-matic

Quoted: It looks like there are a number of people out there tinkering with their Prius cars and adding electrical storage capacity to them by adding extra batteries and solar panels to the cars.  Another guy is adding capacitors instead of batteries.  Apparently, the ability of the Prius to run in electric-only mode is a huge factor in being able to stretch electrical usage in these cars.  Just with solar panels attached to the cars current owners are stretching an extra 3 miles a day in range on free electricity every day. General stats say that most people drive 35-40 miles a day, so this is about an 8-10% reduction in fuel usage.  I think this is great and I hope all the car manufacturers get their butts in gear and offer a vehicle like this.  An immediate ten percent reduction in US gasoline usage would be a great thing and would drop gasoline prices across the board. Plug-ins use just electricity for the first 8 or 10 miles, and a charge to carry your car that far is about five cents right now.  So, your first 8 are essentially free, you get 3 miles out of the solar panels for the day so that's 11 for free, and then the 55MPG Prius carries you for the remaining 29 miles at 55MPG means you burned about half a gallon of gas that day.  How cool is that?  This is great news to me.  My Honda Civic, even at 40MPG, would burn over a gallon a day... maybe three times as much gas?  That's the same difference in fuel efficiency that a Honda Civic has over a Viper or a Suburban. Somebody's gonna get fucking rich off this technology, and it could be the guy in the garage next to you.  Custom conversion kits for cars... this is gonna be huge.

As a Prius owner, you don't know what you are talking about.

First of all, the Prius isn't designed for these types of modifications.  While it may be possible to make them, the costs of these upgrades are generally far in excess of the savings.

Secondly, NO U.S. PRIUS runs on battery alone when starting up, unless the user modifies their vehicle to run in Electric/Vehicle mode.  The Prius absolutely CANNOT be run in E/V mode (electric only) at speeds greater than 36 MPH.  In non-E/V mode the car can go 41 MPH before the engine turns on, but that is going to defeat the extra battery storage for short trips.  In other cases it can be difficult to maintain that speed or to prevent the engine from starting, due to the instantaneous charge.  Due to the way that the Prius operates, unless you limit yourself to 36MPH (in E/V mode), the engine is GOING to be running when you start up and drive for the first 5 minutes or so REGARDLESS OF SPEED.

Thirdly, where do you get your info about 5 cents = 8-10 miles?  In most places, 5 cents won't even buy you 1 kW.  I sincerely doubt that 1 kW is going to get you 8-10 miles unless you are driving downhill.  Fuel costs in the Prius run up to about 6 cents per mile assuming 48 MPG and $2.75 gas.  There is absolutely NO WAY you are going to be able to drive for .5 cents per mile, in a useful way.

Lastly, most people don't get 55 MPG in their Prius.  Mean results are 48 MPG in mixed driving and variable conditions and trip lengths.  I feel like I am doing very well to average 51 over the life of the car.  EPA numbers are not to be trusted.  Almost ANY car will do about 90% of that number.

I am sure that plug in hybrids may be feasable for certain people and situations and maybe even more so in the future, but your post was riddled with factual inaccuracies, half-truths and outright misconception.

Quoted: Purchasing a new vehicle that uses less fuel, or spending $$$ to modify my existing vehicle doesn't save money.

That depends on the price of fuel, your current mileage, and your intended use.

Your blanket statement is patently false.

Well, one of these days you're going to probably buy a new car.  Let's say you go from a 25MPG car to one of these hobbyist Prius setups, and you do the math.

One day's gas at half a gallong vs one day's gas at 1.8 gallons.  182 gallons vs 657 gallons.  546  vs 1971 at three bucks a gallon, which should be here by Christmas or so I think... or 910 vs 3285 at $5 a gallon... which check would you rather send to Cesar Chavez and the Saudi royal bombthrowers... one thousand or three thousand?  And, if we could get corn ethanol to cut the gas another 10-50% we could strangle that 1000 down to 500.

That's if you care where your money goes.  If you don't care where it ends up, then maybe the savings will help out.  It would cost about $12K to trick out a Prius with this technology today with zero economy of scale in your back yard, so you'd have to drive it six years to break even.  After six years it'd start to pay for itself, and you'd be considerably better off at ten or twelve years.  If you can stand to keep a car that long.  But I bet that three years from now gas prices will be compelling enough that people will pay that extra money to stop buying so much gas, and they'd be OK with the tradeoff.  

So, that's the state of the technology today, I bet it drops in price considerably over time as testing and retesting goes on in the hands of the hobbyists and somebody sets up a Prius Rebuild Center in the US to fit new production models with the power upgrade options.

When someone says "I modified my Prius to plug it in, and now I get 250 miles per gallon", don't listen to them.

At that point, since the vehicle is using multiple energy sources, it is more realistic to talk in terms of miles/kilometers per unit currency.

That electricity isn't free unless they're generating it at home or getting it by solar/wind power, and even then there is overhead.  How many kilowatt hours does a 'modified' prius use in charging overnight?

Jim

Quoted: Quoted: It looks like there are a number of people out there tinkering with their Prius cars blah blah blah As a Prius owner, you don't know what you are talking about. First of all, the Prius isn't designed for these types of modifications.  While it may be possible to make them, the costs of these upgrades are generally far in excess of the savings. Secondly, NO U.S. PRIUS runs on battery alone when starting up, unless the user modifies their vehicle to run in Electric/Vehicle mode.  The Prius absolutely CANNOT be run in E/V mode (electric only) at speeds greater than 36 MPH.  In non-E/V mode the car can go 41 MPH before the engine turns on, but that is going to defeat the extra battery storage for short trips.  In other cases it can be difficult to maintain that speed or to prevent the engine from starting, due to the instantaneous charge.  Due to the way that the Prius operates, unless you limit yourself to 36MPH (in E/V mode), the engine is GOING to be running when you start up and drive for the first 5 minutes or so REGARDLESS OF SPEED. Thirdly, where do you get your info about 5 cents = 8-10 miles?  In most places, 5 cents won't even buy you 1 kW.  I sincerely doubt that 1 kW is going to get you 8-10 miles unless you are driving downhill.  Fuel costs in the Prius run up to about 6 cents per mile assuming 48 MPG and $2.75 gas.  There is absolutely NO WAY you are going to be able to drive for .5 cents per mile, in a useful way. Note:  I probably got this wrong... I'll check again. Lastly, most people don't get 55 MPG in their Prius.  Mean results are 48 MPG in mixed driving and variable conditions and trip lengths.  I feel like I am doing very well to average 51 over the life of the car.  EPA numbers are not to be trusted.  Almost ANY car will do about 90% of that number. I am sure that plug in hybrids may be feasable for certain people and situations and maybe even more so in the future, but your post was riddled with factual inaccuracies, half-truths and outright misconception.

In any case, here are my sources:

Steve Lapp’s PV Prius is still a rough prototype—a demonstration of concept—but even with the limitations of the systems, he has achieved an initial 10% fuel efficiency improvement from 4.5 l/100km (52 mpg US) to 4.0 l/100km (59 mpg US).

From the original description of the plan:

   ...the fact that [current Toyota hybrids] can run on electricity alone, with their gasoline engines off, offers the opportunity to provide them with more electricity and therefore drive further with the gasoline engine off.

and later down in the same article:

Others are modifying hybrids, too.

Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said.

University of California, Davis, engineering professor Andy Frank built a plug-in hybrid from the ground up in 1972 and has since built seven others, one of which gets up to 250 mpg. They were converted from non-hybrids, including a Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Suburban.

Frank has spent $150,000 to $250,000 in research costs on each car, but believes automakers could mass-produce them by adding just $6,000 to each vehicle's price tag.

Instead, Frank said, automakers promise hydrogen-powered vehicles hailed by President Bush and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though hydrogen's backers acknowledge the cars won't be widely available for years and would require a vast infrastructure of new fueling stations.

"They'd rather work on something that won't be in their lifetime, and that's this hydrogen economy stuff," Frank said. "They pick this kind of target to get the public off their back, essentially."

--------------------------------------

I'm sure I got some of the facts wrong but I don't think much of what I said is misleading or way off the mark.  If it's a buck instead of five cents... that's a multiple of 20, but it's still less than a dollar's difference.  All of these things are steps in the right direction.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/solarpoweraugme.html#more

That's for the solar panel upgrade.

The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 5 0-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg.

"The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html

That's for the extra batteries.

my dad just got a prius.  He actually giggled last time he fueled up and calculated his avg mileage.

51 MPG.  Thats pretty freakin good.

Quoted: Remember that article I sent you about 6 months ago Peak_Oil? That guy predicted that plug in hybrids are the wave of the future and I agree. They will really come into their own when one is offered by the factory.

Yeah, I think they're great and hopefully everybody will get in on the PUH technology and we can let the oil in the middle east just sit there and fucking rot.  Realistically speaking, I think there's a lot of pain to be had in the next 5-10 years while everybody figures out how to get themselves from A to B without wiping themselves out financially.  Nobody's going to want to buy a car that will use much less gas while they still have a job that's going to pay them enough to buy it.

Is it true that Hybrid batteries have to be replaced every so many years at insane prices? Arent they ungodly expensive to repair and maintain?

I am not saying the hybrid concept is bad, far from it. I just dont see it economically viable for me at this time.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It looks like there are a number of people out there tinkering with their Prius cars blah blah blah As a Prius owner, you don't know what you are talking about. First of all, the Prius isn't designed for these types of modifications.  While it may be possible to make them, the costs of these upgrades are generally far in excess of the savings. Secondly, NO U.S. PRIUS runs on battery alone when starting up, unless the user modifies their vehicle to run in Electric/Vehicle mode.  The Prius absolutely CANNOT be run in E/V mode (electric only) at speeds greater than 36 MPH.  In non-E/V mode the car can go 41 MPH before the engine turns on, but that is going to defeat the extra battery storage for short trips.  In other cases it can be difficult to maintain that speed or to prevent the engine from starting, due to the instantaneous charge.  Due to the way that the Prius operates, unless you limit yourself to 36MPH (in E/V mode), the engine is GOING to be running when you start up and drive for the first 5 minutes or so REGARDLESS OF SPEED. Thirdly, where do you get your info about 5 cents = 8-10 miles?  In most places, 5 cents won't even buy you 1 kW.  I sincerely doubt that 1 kW is going to get you 8-10 miles unless you are driving downhill.  Fuel costs in the Prius run up to about 6 cents per mile assuming 48 MPG and $2.75 gas.  There is absolutely NO WAY you are going to be able to drive for .5 cents per mile, in a useful way. Note:  I probably got this wrong... I'll check again. Lastly, most people don't get 55 MPG in their Prius.  Mean results are 48 MPG in mixed driving and variable conditions and trip lengths.  I feel like I am doing very well to average 51 over the life of the car.  EPA numbers are not to be trusted.  Almost ANY car will do about 90% of that number. I am sure that plug in hybrids may be feasable for certain people and situations and maybe even more so in the future, but your post was riddled with factual inaccuracies, half-truths and outright misconception. In any case, here are my sources: Steve Lapp’s PV Prius is still a rough prototype—a demonstration of concept—but even with the limitations of the systems, he has achieved an initial 10% fuel efficiency improvement from 4.5 l/100km (52 mpg US) to 4.0 l/100km (59 mpg US). From the original description of the plan:    ...the fact that [current Toyota hybrids] can run on electricity alone, with their gasoline engines off, offers the opportunity to provide them with more electricity and therefore drive further with the gasoline engine off. and later down in the same article: Others are modifying hybrids, too. Monrovia-based Energy CS has converted two Priuses to get up to 230 mpg by using powerful lithium ion batteries. It is forming a new company, EDrive Systems, that will convert hybrids to plug-ins for about $12,000 starting next year, company vice president Greg Hanssen said. University of California, Davis, engineering professor Andy Frank built a plug-in hybrid from the ground up in 1972 and has since built seven others, one of which gets up to 250 mpg. They were converted from non-hybrids, including a Ford Taurus and Chevrolet Suburban. Frank has spent $150,000 to $250,000 in research costs on each car, but believes automakers could mass-produce them by adding just $6,000 to each vehicle's price tag. Instead, Frank said, automakers promise hydrogen-powered vehicles hailed by President Bush and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though hydrogen's backers acknowledge the cars won't be widely available for years and would require a vast infrastructure of new fueling stations. "They'd rather work on something that won't be in their lifetime, and that's this hydrogen economy stuff," Frank said. "They pick this kind of target to get the public off their back, essentially." -------------------------------------- I'm sure I got some of the facts wrong but I don't think much of what I said is misleading or way off the mark.  If it's a buck instead of five cents... that's a multiple of 20, but it's still less than a dollar's difference.  All of these things are steps in the right direction. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/solarpoweraugme.html#more That's for the solar panel upgrade. The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 5 0-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg. "The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference." http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/index.html That's for the extra batteries.

Obviously increasing the battery capacity, or boosting charging will extend the time the Prius can run on electricity.  I am not disputing that.  For many people, the limitations of 36/EV and 41/Non-EV make it impractical to spend a lot of money on mods that only boost mileage by 10%.

A NON-MODDED Prius can easily average over 80 MPG if speeds are limited to 50 MPH and traffic doesn't get in the way.  Drastic changes are needed to the Prius if a REAL plug in package is offered.  I am talking about a package that allows the user to plug in and charge at night, and drive 50+ miles per day at speeds of 70+ MPH, while still retaining hybrid capabilities for longer trips.  Assuming an electric range of 80 miles, the charging energy would need to be 55 kWh or less to make it worthwhile.

Nobody seems to care that charging a battery may cost more money than you get out of it, so I don't see numbers.

If I can recharge my Prius at night for $2 in electricity, and get 80 miles to a charge at an average of 65 MPH with battery packs that last 150,000 miles then I would be willing to pay a few thousand for the conversion, since my gas would be cut in half.

Quoted: Quoted: Remember that article I sent you about 6 months ago Peak_Oil? That guy predicted that plug in hybrids are the wave of the future and I agree. They will really come into their own when one is offered by the factory. Yeah, I think they're great and hopefully everybody will get in on the PUH technology and we can let the oil in the middle east just sit there and fucking rot.  Realistically speaking, I think there's a lot of pain to be had in the next 5-10 years while everybody figures out how to get themselves from A to B without wiping themselves out financially.  Nobody's going to want to buy a car that will use much less gas while they still have a job that's going to pay them enough to buy it.

You are forgetting the biggest part of the equation.  Power generation.

Quoted: Is it true that Hybrid batteries have to be replaced every so many years at insane prices? Arent they ungodly expensive to repair and maintain? I am not saying the hybrid concept is bad, far from it. I just dont see it economically viable for me at this time.

Yes they eventually wear out.  No, they are not expensive.

Quoted: Is it true that Hybrid batteries have to be replaced every so many years at insane prices? Arent they ungodly expensive to repair and maintain? I am not saying the hybrid concept is bad, far from it. I just dont see it economically viable for me at this time.

No it isn't true.  Right now, the Prius, NiMH battery pack is rated to 150,000+ miles, and only costs $3,000 or so to buy.  Costs on batteries are rapidly dropping, and the life of batteries is still improving.  I'll probably buy an upgrade battery pack 5 years from now assuming one is available, whether I need it or not.

The only repairs that need to be done on a hybrid at the dealership, are the hybrid components.  Everything else is pretty much standard.  I use Mobil 1 in my Prius, so I guess 5,000 miles oil changes cost me (3q + filter)  $14 or so.  Brakes last twice as long due to regenerative braking.  There is no transmission, so subtract that expense.  Everything else is pretty much standard Toyota.

No big deal.

Im laughing at the prius buyers.  I got a toyota echo for 8k with 15k mile on it.   A prius like that would cost how much?  20k?  I get 40mpg.  If a Prius gets 55mpg the owner would have to drive 550,000 miles at 3 dollars a gallon in order to make up the difference.  (thats 25 gal per thousand mi vs. 18g/1k mi = difference of $21 per thousand mi.  or $2,100 per 100k mi. or approx 550,000 mi to equal the difference in price.

Yup, you might feel kind of silly, since the power to charge your car comes primarily from coal, natural gas, or nuclear plants. I have similars hopes to yours Peak, but we've got a lot further to go in areas other than manufacturing to kick the oil habit.

And as far as letting it rot in the ground? Certainly not--we'll still need it for plastics, and medicine and suchlike, but with dramatically reduced demand a few decades down the road, we might be buying the crude on our terms. That is of course, assuming the Chinese and the rest of the developing world, who can't afford this high technology, aren't still consuming it in enormous quantities to raise their standards of living to our level.

Oh well. Go donate blood! You can improve the world a little bit at a time in a realistic way by doing that. Or you could just help the Red Cross' bottom line. Whatever.

Quoted: Im laughing at the prius buyers.  I got a toyota echo for 8k with 15k mile on it.   A prius like that would cost how much?  20k?  I get 40mpg.  If a Prius gets 55mpg the owner would have to drive 550,000 miles at 3 dollars a gallon in order to make up the difference.  (thats 25 gal per thousand mi vs. 18g/1k mi = difference of $21 per thousand mi.  or $2,100 per 100k mi. or approx 550,000 mi to equal the difference in price.

And your car has what for amenities?  How much was it new?  How fast is it?  How big is it?

Prius>Echo in all respects except base price.

Quoted: Im laughing at the prius buyers.  I got a toyota echo for 8k with 15k mile on it.   A prius like that would cost how much?  20k?  I get 40mpg.  If a Prius gets 55mpg the owner would have to drive 550,000 miles at 3 dollars a gallon in order to make up the difference.  (thats 25 gal per thousand mi vs. 18g/1k mi = difference of $21 per thousand mi.  or $2,100 per 100k mi. or approx 550,000 mi to equal the difference in price.

The echo is a compact car.  The Prius is a full-sized car.  Your argument is BS.

Quoted: Is it true that Hybrid batteries have to be replaced every so many years at insane prices? Arent they ungodly expensive to repair and maintain? I am not saying the hybrid concept is bad, far from it. I just dont see it economically viable for me at this time.

When the Prius came out, the figures I saw were that the batteries would need replacement in 6 to 8 years at a cost of $8,000-$10,000.

Last time I saw figures in print, the price estimate was down to $2000-$3000.

Jim

Quoted: Quoted: Im laughing at the prius buyers.  I got a toyota echo for 8k with 15k mile on it.   A prius like that would cost how much?  20k?  I get 40mpg.  If a Prius gets 55mpg the owner would have to drive 550,000 miles at 3 dollars a gallon in order to make up the difference.  (thats 25 gal per thousand mi vs. 18g/1k mi = difference of $21 per thousand mi.  or $2,100 per 100k mi. or approx 550,000 mi to equal the difference in price. And your car has what for amenities?  How much was it new?  How fast is it?  How big is it? Prius>Echo in all respects except base price.

GEEK FIGHT!

Quoted: Quoted: Im laughing at the prius buyers.  I got a toyota echo for 8k with 15k mile on it.   A prius like that would cost how much?  20k?  I get 40mpg.  If a Prius gets 55mpg the owner would have to drive 550,000 miles at 3 dollars a gallon in order to make up the difference.  (thats 25 gal per thousand mi vs. 18g/1k mi = difference of $21 per thousand mi.  or $2,100 per 100k mi. or approx 550,000 mi to equal the difference in price. The echo is a compact car.  The Prius is a full-sized car.  Your argument is BS.

Echo is a subcompact.  Prius is a midsize.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Im laughing at the prius buyers.  I got a toyota echo for 8k with 15k mile on it.   A prius like that would cost how much?  20k?  I get 40mpg.  If a Prius gets 55mpg the owner would have to drive 550,000 miles at 3 dollars a gallon in order to make up the difference.  (thats 25 gal per thousand mi vs. 18g/1k mi = difference of $21 per thousand mi.  or $2,100 per 100k mi. or approx 550,000 mi to equal the difference in price. And your car has what for amenities?  How much was it new?  How fast is it?  How big is it? Prius>Echo in all respects except base price. GEEK FIGHT!

I'm going to wait until they make a hybrid/plug/etc car that can beat traffic on a merge, accelerate uphill, and is cheap to buy and maintain.  Right now, those suckers are TOO expensive.  Might as well save your money and buy more gas instead!

Quoted:

how much do you think those solar panals that gained 3 miles per day cost?

Quoted: It looks like there are a number of people out there tinkering with their Prius cars and adding electrical storage capacity to them by adding extra batteries and solar panels to the cars.  Another guy is adding capacitors instead of batteries.

The batteries cost several 1000 dollars each and capacitors still need batteries to run them.

Some guy in you garage is NOT gonna out smart the company of Toyota.

Sgat1r5