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Posted: 9/17/2009 10:48:21 AM EST
CNN) –– Two Florida school administrators were due to appear in federal court Thursday to face contempt charges for saying a prayer at a school luncheon.


Rep. Mike McIntyre is one of three members of the Congressional Prayer Caucus backing the school officials.

Frank Lay, principal of Pace High School in Pace, Florida, and school athletic director Robert Freeman are accused of violating a consent decree banning employees of Santa Rosa County schools from endorsing religion.

They face a nonjury trial before U.S. District Judge M.C. Rodgers. If convicted, they could be sentenced to up to six months in prison and fined, subject to sentencing guidelines.

Defense attorneys have said it is it outrageous Lay and Freeman are facing prosecution for "a simple prayer." But the American Civil Liberties Union, whose lawsuit led to the consent decree, maintains students have a right to be free from administrators who foist their personal religious beliefs on them.

However, an ACLU representative said the organization "never suggested" people should go to jail for violating the decree, and the organization is not involved in the criminal proceedings.

The ACLU filed suit last year against the school district in northwest Florida on behalf of two Pace students who alleged that "officials regularly promoted religion and led prayers at school events," according to an ACLU statement.

Both parties approved the consent decree put in place January 9 under which district and school officials are "permanently prohibited from promoting, advancing, endorsing, participating in or causing prayers during or in conjunction with school events," the ACLU said.

Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy.

But on January 28, "Lay asked Freeman to offer a prayer of blessing during a school-day luncheon for the dedication of a new field house at Pace High School," according to court documents.

"Freeman complied with the request and offered the prayer at the event. It appears this was a school-sponsored event attended by students, faculty and community members."

Attorneys from Liberty Counsel, a conservative legal group helping defend Lay and Freeman, have said that attendees included booster club members and other adults who helped the field house project –– all "consenting adults."

Three U.S. lawmakers who are members of the Congressional Prayer Caucus have written a letter in support of the two school administrators, saying that "many of America's Founding Fathers were resolute in their faiths, and the impact of such is evident in the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and many of their writings."

The letter from Reps. J. Randy Forbes, R-Virginia; Mike McIntyre, D-North Carolina; and Jeff Miller, R-Florida, said the congressmen were writing as members of the Congressional Prayer Caucus.

"The tradition of offering prayer in America has become so interwoven into our nation's spiritual heritage that to charge someone criminally for engaging in such a practice would astonish the men who founded this country on religious liberty," the lawmakers wrote.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:50:37 AM EST
This is so outrageous...........moving us farther to that "line in the sand".
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:52:09 AM EST
ACLU sucks
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:54:03 AM EST
The ACLU is loving this.

Bullsh*t they give even one rectum hair about the administrators.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:54:36 AM EST
The consent decree means that the school district agreed that anyone offering a prayer would be in contempt of court, and thus subject to jail time. School district basically threw it's people under the bus.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:54:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 10:55:26 AM EST by doggscube]
They violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault?

Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:55:51 AM EST
but . . . but . . . I am told by the arfcom liberals that this does not happen.












I'll just leave this here:





Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:55:53 AM EST
They used bad judgement to pray at an event that most likely had people of many different faiths....but they should not be charged or go to jail....just use better judgement in the future.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:56:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:56:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By doggscube:
They violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault?

Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy.
This

Anyone read it?

Do you promise this judge to do as he says

Yes we do

Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint

ok

They did what!!

Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!!

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:56:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By CRC:
ACLU sucks


In fairness, the ruling they originally got also protects Christians from being forced, coerced, or pressured into participating in, say, Muslim prayers that are started and led by the faculty.

They dulled both sides of the double-edged sword. Which is truly the only proper way to do it in a country like ours that practices equality before the law.

They're also not backing the potential jail sentence. Says right there, they never intended it to be a criminal charge and aren't involved in the criminal case.

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:56:55 AM EST
It's not because they are Christian, it's because they allegedly violated a mandated consent decree.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:57:23 AM EST
The separation of church and state is a double-edged sword guys. Be careful what you get pissed off over.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:57:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By leo6223:
CNN) –– Two Florida school administrators were due to appear in federal court Thursday to face contempt charges for saying a prayer at a school luncheon.


They are not going to prison for being Christians, they are going to prison for willfully disobeying an order from the court.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:04:13 AM EST
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:08:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 11:09:28 AM EST by DK-Prof]
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:08:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 11:09:59 AM EST by Lacoochee]
I wonder why if they have so many supporters why don't they all go and pray right now in the High School parking lot?

How ridiculous would it be if the government had to arrest and charge everyone in the school district? Come on people stand up for what you believe in, do not stand there and whine about the government, do something.

I guarantee you if this was an all Muslim school district, there wouldn't be so much outcry about how they are being oppressed, I can also guarantee that you would have to arrest them all. They at least have the courage of their convictions (however weird some of their priorities seem to us ).

I should end this by saying I support prayer in privately funded schools by whatever faith. I do not however support publicly funded schools allowing school prayer for any faith, that should stay at home. ( I should also say I am not a big supporter of publicly funded schools period).

In this case since the prayer was in from of adults it's ridiculous all around.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:16:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 11:20:31 AM EST by Shootist_Jeff]
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By gotyoursix:

Originally Posted By doggscube:
They violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault?

Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy.
This

Anyone read it?

Do you promise this judge to do as he says

Yes we do

Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint

ok

They did what!!

Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!!



Exactly.

If they didn't want to abide by the deal, they should have contested it, or found a different job (say at a private school).


Even if the contract violates the Constitution? Does that mean people can purchase children as slaves now?

This isn't a discussion of firings but of imprisonment for(allegedly) free speech.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:18:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:21:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 11:22:25 AM EST by HardShell]
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:23:48 AM EST
Going to prison for being a Christian?

No. Going to prison for being an idiot.

TC
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:25:30 AM EST
your title is misleading.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:25:57 AM EST
Blood will run in the streets if things don't turn around.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:26:18 AM EST
Blood will run in the streets if things don't turn around.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:27:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By operatorerror:
It's not because they are Christian, it's because they allegedly violated a mandated consent decree.


+1

Jail time would be excessive though...
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:28:38 AM EST
No one is being imprisoned for being a Christian.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:30:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:31:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 11:35:07 AM EST by gotyoursix]

Originally Posted By Shootist_Jeff:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By gotyoursix:

Originally Posted By doggscube:
They violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault?

Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy.
This

Anyone read it?

Do you promise this judge to do as he says

Yes we do

Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint

ok

They did what!!

Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!!



Exactly.

If they didn't want to abide by the deal, they should have contested it, or found a different job (say at a private school).


Even if the contract violates the Constitution? Does that mean people can purchase children as slaves now?

This isn't a discussion of firings but of imprisonment for(allegedly) free speech.


Then get another fucking lawyer.
I get the whole free speech thing, all of that.

You need to work the law, if it is right then they go,
If it is right and they say that it is wrong and you want it changed you have to work for that too.

I know it isnt easy but if you want hope and change like others state you have to fucking fight for it.

so dont bow out and then shit on a promise.

Stand up and say this is crap and fight for it
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:31:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:33:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 11:33:40 AM EST by TheAmaazingCarl]
They F'ed and frankly deserve a little jail time for being such massive tools. How would you feel if they had been Muslim/Wiccan/Buddhist/insert religion here and done the same?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:33:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Towely:
Originally Posted By operatorerror:
It's not because they are Christian, it's because they allegedly violated a mandated consent decree.


+1

Jail time would be excessive though...


+2
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:35:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:36:22 AM EST
Big difference between saying a personal prayer, and presenting a prayer in your specific tradition to a captive audience.

Many folks here have claimed the former is being banned. Those of us who are routinely called "liberal" have pointed out this is not the case.

One easy way to see how principled the freedom of religion people here really are, is to ask themselves if they would be similarly defending said school officials had they offered the prayer to Allah and invited the group to bow and face Mecca.

Sounds like there was good reason the courts had already gotten involved.

A "moment of silence" would have let people pray who would have wanted to pray, without showing a preference to any particular religious belief.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:38:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By TheAmaazingCarl:
.... How would you feel if they had been Muslim/Wiccan/Buddhist/insert religion here and done the same?

If that had been the case then the ACLU would have been defending them, not bringing suit...




True, the ACLU double standards seem almost a mirror of those espoused so often here.

Funny how that works.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:44:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
No one is being imprisoned for being a Christian.

Not in the US... and not yet.


always the victims, or about to be huh.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:45:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Q3131A:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



plain and simple ......end of story
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:53:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 11:59:02 AM EST by HardShell]
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:57:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:57:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By gotyoursix:

Originally Posted By doggscube:
They violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault?

Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy.
This

Anyone read it?

Do you promise this judge to do as he says

Yes we do

Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint

ok

They did what!!

Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!!



Exactly.

If they didn't want to abide by the deal, they should have contested it, or found a different job (say at a private school).


You take your common sense and rational thinking right to DU buddy!!!!!



Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:13:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By Q3131A:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



That's just retarded stuff written by dead guys a long time ago, it doesn't mean anything now.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:16:05 PM EST
I think jail time is a bit much, but I do think they should be fired. Look, I believe in Jesus to, but the only people who are going to talk to my kids about faith is me, my wife, and the church I take my kids to. When the school tells me about a function that my kids will be apart of I expect to be told everything that the school has planned at said function. They go to school for reading, math, science, so on, and I'll take care of the political/religion part at home. Hell, I don't even trust them when it comes to history.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:16:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By gitarmac:
but . . . but . . . I am told by the arfcom liberals that this does not happen.

I'll just leave this here:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c390/gitarmac/posters/tolerance.jpg

The liberals are the ones that put people into death camps and ovens.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:19:35 PM EST

In before the dogpile of first amendment quotes that really don't mean shit to a broken consensual agreement that has consequences.

OH SHI-
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:21:38 PM EST
Holy misleading headlines, Batman.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:28:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By gotyoursix:

Originally Posted By doggscube:
They violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault?

Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy.
This

Anyone read it?

Do you promise this judge to do as he says

Yes we do

Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint

ok

They did what!!

Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!!



Exactly.

If they didn't want to abide by the deal, they should have contested it, or found a different job (say at a private school).



+1

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:28:45 PM EST
We've come a long way from the days of the founding of this nation - back when it was ok & even common to say prayers in school and even use the bible as a text book in school.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:32:13 PM EST
They aren't going to jail for being christians, far from it. They are going to jail (perhaps) for violating a consent decree that they agreed to.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:34:37 PM EST
hmmmmmm. I thought I saw a CNN somewhere in front of that story. No one thinks there might be something fishy about the facts of the story or ........lack of.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:40:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 12:51:17 PM EST by HardShell]
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:45:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By StandardDeviation:
Originally Posted By leo6223:
CNN) –– Two Florida school administrators were due to appear in federal court Thursday to face contempt charges for saying a prayer at a school luncheon.


They are not going to prison for being Christians, they are going to prison for willfully disobeying an order from the court.


Yep. Don't piss off the folks in black robes with the wrathful god complex.

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:51:46 PM EST
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