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Posted: 9/17/2009 11:48:21 AM EDT
CNN) –– Two Florida school administrators were due to appear in federal court Thursday to face contempt charges for saying a prayer at a school luncheon.
Rep. Mike McIntyre is one of three members of the Congressional Prayer Caucus backing the school officials. Frank Lay, principal of Pace High School in Pace, Florida, and school athletic director Robert Freeman are accused of violating a consent decree banning employees of Santa Rosa County schools from endorsing religion. They face a nonjury trial before U.S. District Judge M.C. Rodgers. If convicted, they could be sentenced to up to six months in prison and fined, subject to sentencing guidelines. Defense attorneys have said it is it outrageous Lay and Freeman are facing prosecution for "a simple prayer." But the American Civil Liberties Union, whose lawsuit led to the consent decree, maintains students have a right to be free from administrators who foist their personal religious beliefs on them. However, an ACLU representative said the organization "never suggested" people should go to jail for violating the decree, and the organization is not involved in the criminal proceedings. The ACLU filed suit last year against the school district in northwest Florida on behalf of two Pace students who alleged that "officials regularly promoted religion and led prayers at school events," according to an ACLU statement. Both parties approved the consent decree put in place January 9 under which district and school officials are "permanently prohibited from promoting, advancing, endorsing, participating in or causing prayers during or in conjunction with school events," the ACLU said. Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy. But on January 28, "Lay asked Freeman to offer a prayer of blessing during a school-day luncheon for the dedication of a new field house at Pace High School," according to court documents. "Freeman complied with the request and offered the prayer at the event. It appears this was a school-sponsored event attended by students, faculty and community members." Attorneys from Liberty Counsel, a conservative legal group helping defend Lay and Freeman, have said that attendees included booster club members and other adults who helped the field house project –– all "consenting adults." Three U.S. lawmakers who are members of the Congressional Prayer Caucus have written a letter in support of the two school administrators, saying that "many of America's Founding Fathers were resolute in their faiths, and the impact of such is evident in the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence and many of their writings." The letter from Reps. J. Randy Forbes, R-Virginia; Mike McIntyre, D-North Carolina; and Jeff Miller, R-Florida, said the congressmen were writing as members of the Congressional Prayer Caucus. "The tradition of offering prayer in America has become so interwoven into our nation's spiritual heritage that to charge someone criminally for engaging in such a practice would astonish the men who founded this country on religious liberty," the lawmakers wrote. |
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This is so outrageous...........moving us farther to that "line in the sand".
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The ACLU is loving this.
Bullsh*t they give even one rectum hair about the administrators. |
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The consent decree means that the school district agreed that anyone offering a prayer would be in contempt of court, and thus subject to jail time. School district basically threw it's people under the bus.
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They violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault?
Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy.
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They used bad judgement to pray at an event that most likely had people of many different faiths....but they should not be charged or go to jail....just use better judgement in the future.
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Thought maybe they were busted for saying Grace before eating their own meal, and I was ready to be pissed.
But if I read this correctly a party to a lawsuit that led to a court decree asked another district employee to directly violate that order that was still in force by offering a prayer at a school sponsored function? If they did it as an act of civil disobedience then they should take their punishment and wear the jail scrubs like king's robes. The fact that they're appealing the punishment makes them sound like they were stupid ill informed or trying to get away with something. Just my $0.02. |
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Quoted: ThisThey violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault? Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy. Anyone read it? Do you promise this judge to do as he says Yes we do Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint ok They did what!! Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!! |
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ACLU sucks In fairness, the ruling they originally got also protects Christians from being forced, coerced, or pressured into participating in, say, Muslim prayers that are started and led by the faculty. They dulled both sides of the double-edged sword. Which is truly the only proper way to do it in a country like ours that practices equality before the law. They're also not backing the potential jail sentence. Says right there, they never intended it to be a criminal charge and aren't involved in the criminal case. |
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It's not because they are Christian, it's because they allegedly violated a mandated consent decree.
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The separation of church and state is a double-edged sword guys. Be careful what you get pissed off over.
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CNN) –– Two Florida school administrators were due to appear in federal court Thursday to face contempt charges for saying a prayer at a school luncheon.
They are not going to prison for being Christians, they are going to prison for willfully disobeying an order from the court. |
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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They violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault? Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy. Anyone read it? Do you promise this judge to do as he says Yes we do Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint ok They did what!! Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!! Exactly. If they didn't want to abide by the deal, they should have contested it, or found a different job (say at a private school). |
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I wonder why if they have so many supporters why don't they all go and pray right now in the High School parking lot?
How ridiculous would it be if the government had to arrest and charge everyone in the school district? Come on people stand up for what you believe in, do not stand there and whine about the government, do something. I guarantee you if this was an all Muslim school district, there wouldn't be so much outcry about how they are being oppressed, I can also guarantee that you would have to arrest them all. They at least have the courage of their convictions (however weird some of their priorities seem to us ). I should end this by saying I support prayer in privately funded schools by whatever faith. I do not however support publicly funded schools allowing school prayer for any faith, that should stay at home. ( I should also say I am not a big supporter of publicly funded schools period). In this case since the prayer was in from of adults it's ridiculous all around. |
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They violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault? Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy. Anyone read it? Do you promise this judge to do as he says Yes we do Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint ok They did what!! Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!! Exactly. If they didn't want to abide by the deal, they should have contested it, or found a different job (say at a private school). Even if the contract violates the Constitution? Does that mean people can purchase children as slaves now? This isn't a discussion of firings but of imprisonment for(allegedly) free speech. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ThisThey violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault? Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy. Anyone read it? Do you promise this judge to do as he says Yes we do Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint ok They did what!! Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!! Exactly. If they didn't want to abide by the deal, they should have contested it, or found a different job (say at a private school). This outspoken, hardcore, fundamentalist Christian has to agree –– the facts are the facts. |
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Quoted: Even if the contract violates the Constitution?... If it violates the Constitution that may be brought up in the appeal... but they clearly violated the agreement to which they were parties on the surface, right or wrong. |
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Going to prison for being a Christian?
No. Going to prison for being an idiot. TC |
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It's not because they are Christian, it's because they allegedly violated a mandated consent decree. +1 Jail time would be excessive though... |
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Quoted: No one is being imprisoned for being a Christian. Not in the US... and not yet. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ThisThey violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault? Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy. Anyone read it? Do you promise this judge to do as he says Yes we do Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint ok They did what!! Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!! Exactly. If they didn't want to abide by the deal, they should have contested it, or found a different job (say at a private school). Even if the contract violates the Constitution? Does that mean people can purchase children as slaves now? This isn't a discussion of firings but of imprisonment for(allegedly) free speech. Then get another fucking lawyer. I get the whole free speech thing, all of that. You need to work the law, if it is right then they go, If it is right and they say that it is wrong and you want it changed you have to work for that too. I know it isnt easy but if you want hope and change like others state you have to fucking fight for it. so dont bow out and then shit on a promise. Stand up and say this is crap and fight for it |
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Quoted: your title is misleading. He got people to open his thread, that's a sign of good writing |
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They F'ed and frankly deserve a little jail time for being such massive tools. How would you feel if they had been Muslim/Wiccan/Buddhist/insert religion here and done the same?
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It's not because they are Christian, it's because they allegedly violated a mandated consent decree. +1 Jail time would be excessive though... +2 |
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Quoted: .... How would you feel if they had been Muslim/Wiccan/Buddhist/insert religion here and done the same? If that had been the case then the ACLU would have been defending them, not bringing suit... |
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Big difference between saying a personal prayer, and presenting a prayer in your specific tradition to a captive audience.
Many folks here have claimed the former is being banned. Those of us who are routinely called "liberal" have pointed out this is not the case. One easy way to see how principled the freedom of religion people here really are, is to ask themselves if they would be similarly defending said school officials had they offered the prayer to Allah and invited the group to bow and face Mecca. Sounds like there was good reason the courts had already gotten involved. A "moment of silence" would have let people pray who would have wanted to pray, without showing a preference to any particular religious belief. |
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.... How would you feel if they had been Muslim/Wiccan/Buddhist/insert religion here and done the same? If that had been the case then the ACLU would have been defending them, not bringing suit... True, the ACLU double standards seem almost a mirror of those espoused so often here. Funny how that works. |
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Quoted: Quoted: No one is being imprisoned for being a Christian. Not in the US... and not yet. always the victims, or about to be huh. |
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Quoted: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. plain and simple ......end of story |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No one is being imprisoned for being a Christian. Not in the US... and not yet. always the victims, or about to be huh. Not always. But examples abound. (I don't think is one of them, as I stated in my very first post here FWIW.) At certain times throughout history, of course, misguided Christians were themselves the persecutors. (I would say "Christians" but I don't want to open that can of worms and get this moved to the Religion Forum... I hear one of the Moderators there is particularly opinionated ) Currently they are not, however, and indeed Christians are being persecuted in many countries throughout the world AFAIK. But not here. Not yet. I'll stand by my original statement quoted above, as is. |
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in this case they KNEW they were in violation of a court order. I have little sympathy for them. I happen to agree that religion needs to be seperate outside a school activity. I have NO problem with a group of students getting together on the grounds and praying so long as it's not using tax funds to cover it.
I don't want my kids preached to by a muslim or JW, why would i expect a non christian to not feel the same. these administrator KNEW the potential consequences and did it anyway. sorry NOT religious persecution. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ThisThey violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault? Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy. Anyone read it? Do you promise this judge to do as he says Yes we do Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint ok They did what!! Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!! Exactly. If they didn't want to abide by the deal, they should have contested it, or found a different job (say at a private school). You take your common sense and rational thinking right to DU buddy!!!!! |
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. That's just retarded stuff written by dead guys a long time ago, it doesn't mean anything now. |
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I think jail time is a bit much, but I do think they should be fired. Look, I believe in Jesus to, but the only people who are going to talk to my kids about faith is me, my wife, and the church I take my kids to. When the school tells me about a function that my kids will be apart of I expect to be told everything that the school has planned at said function. They go to school for reading, math, science, so on, and I'll take care of the political/religion part at home. Hell, I don't even trust them when it comes to history.
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Quoted: but . . . but . . . I am told by the arfcom liberals that this does not happen. I'll just leave this here: http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c390/gitarmac/posters/tolerance.jpg The liberals are the ones that put people into death camps and ovens. |
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In before the dogpile of first amendment quotes that really don't mean shit to a broken consensual agreement that has consequences. OH SHI- |
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They violated an agreement they agreed to, and it's the ACLU's fault? Lay was a party in the initial lawsuit, and his attorney was among those approving the consent decree, according to the organization. In addition, the court required that all district employees receive a copy. Anyone read it? Do you promise this judge to do as he says Yes we do Ok, if you dont, you are going to the joint ok They did what!! Why are we going to the joint, we did nothing wrong but pray!!! Exactly. If they didn't want to abide by the deal, they should have contested it, or found a different job (say at a private school). +1 |
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We've come a long way from the days of the founding of this nation - back when it was ok & even common to say prayers in school and even use the bible as a text book in school.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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They aren't going to jail for being christians, far from it. They are going to jail (perhaps) for violating a consent decree that they agreed to.
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hmmmmmm. I thought I saw a CNN somewhere in front of that story. No one thinks there might be something fishy about the facts of the story or ........lack of.
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Quoted: ... Look, I believe in Jesus to, but the only people who are going to talk to my kids about faith is me, my wife, and the church I take my kids to. When the school tells me about a function that my kids will be apart of I expect to be told everything that the school has planned at said function. They go to school for reading, math, science, so on, and I'll take care of the political/religion part at home. Hell, I don't even trust them when it comes to history. Amen. |
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CNN) –– Two Florida school administrators were due to appear in federal court Thursday to face contempt charges for saying a prayer at a school luncheon.
They are not going to prison for being Christians, they are going to prison for willfully disobeying an order from the court. Yep. Don't piss off the folks in black robes with the wrathful god complex. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. That's just retarded stuff written by dead guys a long time ago, it doesn't mean anything now. It's the first, unhighlighted section of that sentence that led to the so-called "separation doctrine". Let me point it out for you: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion... Which the SCOTUS took to mean allowing prayer in schools, nativity scenes on local government property, etcetera ad nauseum, even though no law was passed that required or established any religion, or prohibited anyone from celebrating their own. As such it became Case Law (AKA Decisional Law or Judicial Precedent, which is different than Statutory Law (or Legislation), so thus technically not "Made by Congress" BRB - HH6 calling |
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