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Posted: 1/2/2003 9:04:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 9:14:04 AM EST
Joe Foss was a real hero. As a Life NRA Member, I get tired of critics that are so quick to damn the NRA because they disagree with some item the NRA does or doesn't do. I agree with 90% of what the NRA does, but realize that "if we don't hang together, we shall surely hang separately." I don't always agree with 100% of the opinions of my family members, but I love them anyway. This "all or nothing" thing is killing us. We better get our heads on straight about this before it is too late. Support the NRA and tell them when they make a mistake. Vote for the people on the board that you most closely agree with. Its the best thing we've got.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 9:20:24 AM EST
raf, Flame me if you want, but I'd say this is in pretty damn poor taste considering the man just passed away. Yes, I have some problems with the NRA leadership, but I remain a member (with voting privileges) so I can try to change it from the inside. I've never had any problem with Joe Foss being a Director, nor do I think he ever acted with less than honorable intentions. If you want to start a pissing match over this, I guess that's your prerogative. I won't be a part of it. BTW, both of my parents were born and raised in South Dakota and actually met the man. They had nothing but good things to say about him.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 9:30:54 AM EST
I would not have expected this thread from you, Raf.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 9:56:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin: I would not have expected this thread from you, Raf.
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Why not? I too have gotten pretty damned sick of the idiotic NRA bashers.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:00:30 AM EST
This is in poor taste. A real hero has just died. For at least a decent period of time the only comments about him should be praise for his great deeds. (And I called for both McUzi and Frank to be forgiven, so this pretty bad.)
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:08:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 10:20:50 AM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:15:58 AM EST
Never had the honor of meeting Gen Foss, but all I read was top notch. Re: the NRA, as a long-time member who's had numerous such discussions, I summmarize as follows: I may not agree with everything the NRA leadership does, but I absolutely believe that without that organization my gun RIGHTS would have disappeared long ago.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:40:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By raf: To those who think this thread in poor taste, may I point out my laudatory prefacing comments about Gen. Foss? As President and as a Director of the NRA, Gen Foss fought for OUR RKBA in peacetime, in much the same way as he fought for our country as a whole in war. In the same manner as we applaud his service in War, we ALL ought to praise his service in Peace. As a [i]fighter[/i] for our country as well as our RKBA, I can't help but think that Gen. Foss would agree to being the focal point of a thread which tries to educate the detractors of an organization to which he devoted the precious last years of his life.
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Fine. You made your "laudatory prefacing comments about Gen. Foss". I agree with what you said completely, to that point. But why end your post pulling him into your squabble with those who have disagreements with the NRA leadership? Do you have to drag this man's honor and service into an argument for your own gain? That's not entirely unlike all the antis we complain about daily, who "dance in the blood of the victims" every time some nutjob goes on a shooting spree, is it? Whether or not he'd want to be a focal point on this thread is a matter of conjecture, since I'm sure you didn't know him any better than I. Rationalize your opinion any way you want to, raf, but it seems that some of us would rather respect the man this shortly after his passing.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:53:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:25:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By Yankee1911:
Originally Posted By raf: To those who think this thread in poor taste, may I point out my laudatory prefacing comments about Gen. Foss? As President and as a Director of the NRA, Gen Foss fought for OUR RKBA in peacetime, in much the same way as he fought for our country as a whole in war. In the same manner as we applaud his service in War, we ALL ought to praise his service in Peace. As a [i]fighter[/i] for our country as well as our RKBA, I can't help but think that Gen. Foss would agree to being the focal point of a thread which tries to educate the detractors of an organization to which he devoted the precious last years of his life.
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Fine. You made your "laudatory prefacing comments about Gen. Foss". I agree with what you said completely, to that point. But why end your post pulling him into your squabble with those who have disagreements with the NRA leadership? Do you have to drag this man's honor and service into an argument for your own gain? That's not entirely unlike all the antis we complain about daily, who "dance in the blood of the victims" every time some nutjob goes on a shooting spree, is it?
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As President of the NRA, Gen. Foss [i]volunteered[/i] to enter the RKBA fray. This little thread is small potatoes compared with his past battles on behalf of the RKBA and the NRA. As for myself, I gain nothing by this thread, unless it be the satisfaction of seeing an NRA-basher re-examine their premises for doing so. Your forced and tortured comparison of Gen. Foss who stepped up to the plate to fight for our rights, and the unknowing, unfortunate, innocent victims exploited by the Libs would be laughable if it were not pitiful.
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How nice that you have such a grasp of adverbs, but why is my comparison "laughable and pitiful"? If you have nothing to gain except some minor degree of self-perceived satisfaction against those of us who disagree with [i]some[/i] of the NRA's tactics and decisions, then why bring him into the discussion, particularly so soon after his death? Why didn't you post this thread on its own merits a few days ago, before he died?
Whether or not he'd want to be a focal point on this thread is a matter of conjecture, since I'm sure you didn't know him any better than I.
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Somehow, I don't think Gen. Foss would mind being "volunteered" for this dust-up. He volunteered for much bigger battles in the past.
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Again, how do you know he wouldn't mind? Did you speak to him? I don't know, either. But why couldn't you make your point without him? I have no problems with somebody going after us "NRA bashers", but I'd think a little decorum would be in order, in this case.
Rationalize your opinion any way you want to, raf, but it seems that some of us would rather respect the man this shortly after his passing.
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I notice by their conspicuous silence that a number of very vocal NRA-bashers-at-every-opportunity share your wish that this thread had not been posted.
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Post what you want to, raf. As I said earlier, it's your prerogative. I certainly wouldn't try to speak for all "NRA-bashers-at-every-opportunity", but I found the whole thing very distasteful and very much below what I believe Joe Foss stood for.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:54:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:11:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 12:11:59 PM EST by Wobblin-Goblin]
Raf, first of all, I do not believe Gen. Foss' life or character is demeaned by his association with or involvement in the NRA. His bio suggests that his convictions led directly to his actions, many of which are lauditory and heroic. As far as your thread is concerned, I found it a little tasteless to use this man's death as an opportunity to bait certain people into an argument. Nothing more, nothing less. As far as the NRA is concerned, I wonder what the organization was like during Gen. Foss' tenure. While I think the NRA does many good things concerning gun-rights, it appears to be more money oriented than anything else. Was it like this back in Foss' day? I don't know, but it would be interesting if he had recent comments on what the NRA has become. My 2 shakes worth.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:11:55 PM EST
Raf's "logic" seems to be that because a Congressional Medal of Honor winner belongs to some organization, the organization is therefore beyond reproach. Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) and Daniel K. Inouye (D-Hawaii) both won the Congressional Medal of Honor. Can we not critisize the democratic party now?
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:13:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By imposter: Raf's "logic" seems to be that because a Congressional Medal of Honor winner belongs to some organization, the organization is therefore beyond reproach. Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) and Daniel K. Inouye (D-Hawaii) both won the Congressional Medal of Honor. Can we not critisize the democratic party now?
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Good point.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:27:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By raf: Thanks for your comments. I think I've answered most, if not all, of your questions before, so anything further at this point would be redundant. I note, however, that as an admitted NRA-basher, you fail to answer my original question about whether Joe Foss was or was not tainted by his association with the NRA. Not surprised at the quibbling with my post/tactics. Nor at the failure of the NRA-bashers-at-large to step up to the plate.
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I agree that we will likely just go around in circles on this. If you don't think that your original post was tasteless, so be it. As to the idea that I'm an "admitted NRA-Basher", I would beg to differ. As I stated earlier, I'm a current member and will continue my membership. I will also question aspects of the NRA that I disagree with, and I will vote my conscience every time the NRA holds an election. I'm fairly sure that's a principle that Joe Foss would've agreed with. And I did answer your question about Joe Foss' association with the NRA, in my first response:
I've never had any problem with Joe Foss being a Director, nor do I think he ever acted with less than honorable intentions.
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Do you need clarification of that statement? I'm not quibbling with your tactics. I happen to think it's in poor taste, that's all. And as I said earlier, I don't presume to speak for all the people you consider "NRA-bashers-at-large". The folks you label as such are free to speak their own minds (ain't America great?), and making inferences that "they" are wrong based on the lack of responses from "them", thus far, is ridiculous.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:31:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 12:37:48 PM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:36:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:02:03 PM EST
Hehehe. Raf, I put the quotes around "NRA-basher" for a reason. Yes, I disagree with some of the actions of the leadership from time to time, but in minds like yours, that makes me an NRA basher. I won't even argue the point with you. By all means, don't ever question anything the NRA does.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:06:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 1:11:11 PM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:14:10 PM EST
I met him at a show, I had heard alot about him, he seemed to live up to it all in our short conversation. RIP
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:25:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 1:27:56 PM EST by Yankee1911]
Originally Posted By raf: I'm content to let your words speak for themselves, Yankee1911.
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Thanks. I ask nothing more.
As far as questioning what the NRA does, I'm in fairly constant contact with two national directors from my state, who I consider personal friends. And I let 'em know when I disagree with their or the NRA's positions on issues.
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Good for you. Why doesn't that make you an "NRA Basher"?
But, anyone want to take a swing at my original question?
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I was pretty sure I already answered it. Let's look at your question:
Originally Posted By raf: Is Gen. Foss a hero, or a villain because of his association with the "sellout" NRA?
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Didn't I answer your pre-loaded question to your satisfaction? I'll try again. I never had a problem with Joe Foss as a Director on the NRA board (or as NRA president, although I wasn't a member at the time), nor do I think he ever acted with less than honorable intentions. I guess you need some clarification, though. Joe Foss' association with the NRA pales to everything else he did in his life. IMO, his association with the NRA has very little to do with his status as a great American, and I still think that you cheapen his accomplishments by using this opportunity to advance your own beliefs, raf. Clear enough for ya?
Or shall we continue to discuss peripheral issues?
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Which issues would those be?
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:36:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:54:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By raf: A great man. A true hero, richly deserving of the Medal of Honor. May he rest in Peace. However, his death brings to mind some thoughts about the NRA-bashing that occurs here on a regular basis. I think that Gen. Foss, old fighter that he was, would not mind being in the middle of yet another battle. Gen. Foss was deeply involved with the NRA [url]nrawinningteam.com/bios00/foss.html [/url] One might ask, since he was a National Director, and a past President, if he, also, should be condemned along with the NRA which he served so faithfully. How about it, you NRA-bashers? Is Gen. Foss a hero, or a villain because of his association with the "sellout" NRA?
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I dunno, never heard of him, nor have I checked your link yet, (I'm having trouble with the site or my connection). I'll answer your question with a question. Did the General compromise our God-given freedom with his votes as a board member?? Did he fight the board to a "No-Compromise" stand? I don't know his record as a board member, but if he voted compromise, then yes he is a sellout regardless of what he did before. (Know anything about Benedict Arnolds war record?)
I say hero, on both counts.
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I don't use the term "Hero" without all the facts. Lyndon Johnson had a Silver Star, was he a "hero"?
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 2:05:50 PM EST
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By imposter: Raf's "logic" seems to be that because a Congressional Medal of Honor winner belongs to some organization, the organization is therefore beyond reproach. Bob Kerrey (D-Nebraska) and Daniel K. Inouye (D-Hawaii) both won the Congressional Medal of Honor. Can we not critisize the democratic party now?
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Actually, you miss my point entirely. My point is: If an organization is tainted, as some say the NRA is, is not Gen. Foss, a former President, [b]and, at the time of his death a National Director[/b] also tainted since he was in a leadership position? Your analogy of Kerry and Inouye would be correct if it was put thus: "Sens. and MoH awardees Kerry and Inouye both are members of the Democratic party. Are they not tainted by their leadership positions in the Dem party?"
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That is a distinction without a difference. Your basic point is that war heroes can do no wrong, that any cause that they take up is good. You are attempting to shame people who dislike the NRA by saying they are disrespecting a war hero, and thus inferring that their patriotism is questionable. You are trying to use a cadaver to pursue a political agenda. You are pulling a Paul Wellstone. It is only going to alienate those to whom you are preaching. Just because someone is a war hero does not make everything they do afterwards decent. Witness Medal of Honor winner Bob Kerrey. I am glad to hear that a hero like Foss supported the NRA. It is always good to hear that such quality people support the 2nd. But there is absolutely no need to imply that those who do not support the NRA are disrespecting a war hero.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 2:17:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By raf: Because I'm inside the tent (usually) pissing out unlike most NRA-bashers who are seldom members, and are outside the tent pissing in when they ought to join in pissing on the Antis.
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How sure are you that "most" of the labeled NRA-bashers aren't members? I'm inside the tent, too, but I won't fall lockstep behind positions I disagree with. And I'll continue to do my part to piss on the antis, regardless of whether the NRA chooses to piss into the wind or not.
Still haven't said if Gen. Foss is tainted by his continuing leadership position in the NRA. But if that's the best you can do, it'll have to do for now.
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I'll try again, then. No, I don't believe that his association with the NRA has, or could ever, make him a villain. His service to this country, regardless of his affiliation with the NRA (which I don't consider to be a bad thing), should be enough for most people. And I still think that your question is distasteful and, quite frankly, disrespectful of the man.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 2:18:54 PM EST
Checked the link, no real info there, just the usual yada, yada. If he was a staunch supporter of RKBA, it's too bad he chose NRA to work with, it must have been very frustrating for him to see them "compromising" away the freedom he fought for on the battlefield... If you come up with more info on him, I'd be interested in looking it over. ..
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 2:19:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 2:26:56 PM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 2:32:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 2:48:25 PM EST by liberty86]
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By raf: A great man. A true hero, richly deserving of the Medal of Honor. May he rest in Peace. However, his death brings to mind some thoughts about the NRA-bashing that occurs here on a regular basis. I think that Gen. Foss, old fighter that he was, would not mind being in the middle of yet another battle. Gen. Foss was deeply involved with the NRA [url]nrawinningteam.com/bios00/foss.html [/url] One might ask, since he was a National Director, and a past President, if he, also, should be condemned along with the NRA which he served so faithfully. How about it, you NRA-bashers? Is Gen. Foss a hero, or a villain because of his association with the "sellout" NRA?
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I dunno, never heard of him, nor have I checked your link yet, (I'm having trouble with the site or my connection). I'll answer your question with a question. Did the General compromise our God-given freedom with his votes as a board member?? Did he fight the board to a "No-Compromise" stand? I don't know his record as a board member, but if he voted compromise, then yes he is a sellout regardless of what he did before. (Know anything about Benedict Arnolds war record?)
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Fair enough. Please respond when you've been able to follow the link and have had the benefit of any other information you may find. As to Foss' voting record, I don't have that info, and doubt the internal machinations of the NRA are readily available. However, [blue]I think it a reasonable assumption that he approved of the direction the NRA had been and is taking.[/blue]
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See my post above..
Had he not, I rather doubt he would have stood for director 3 times running. If he had been disgusted with the organization, he could always have resigned in protest. Point is, as a long-standing member of managment, he has to assume responsibility for what the NRA is, good or bad.
I say hero, on both counts.
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I don't use the term "Hero" without all the facts. Lyndon Johnson had a Silver Star, was he a "hero"?
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[blue]Knowing what we do about old Lyndon, I rather doubt that Silver Star was earned.[/blue]
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You are correct on the Silver Star comment, I found out about it here maybe last spring, someone posted a link to the story. I think it was in one of the Isreal rants on the "Liberty". Do you know exactly what Gen. Foss did for the CMO award??
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 2:44:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 2:50:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 2:57:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 3:34:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 3:36:37 PM EST by imposter]
Originally Posted By raf: I'm truly sorry that you can't see that there [i]is[/i] a difference, a real one.
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I'm really touched by how sorry you feel. I feel horrible about it too. [:D]
Not at all. My point is simply that Gen. Foss, by virtue of his continuing leadership position within the NRA, must assume responsibility for the current state of the NRA, be it good or bad. My only purpose in this thread is to cause people to question their own assumptions using Gen. Foss' unquestioned patriotism and association with the NRA as a vehicle. If that causes some individuals some discomfort, that is unfortunate.
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Ok, turn that on its head.
[red]Kerrey[/red], by virtue of his continuing leadership position within the [red]Democratic Party[/red], must assume responsibility for the current state of the [red]Democratic Party[/red], be it good or bad. My only purpose in this thread is to cause people to question their own assumptions using [red]Senator Kerrey's[/red] unquestioned patriotism and association with the [red]Democratic Party[/red] as a vehicle. If that causes some individuals some discomfort, that is unfortunate.
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Are you ready to vote Democrat now? You almost had me talked into it. [:D] I love that "that is unfortunate" business; its just like the "truly sorry" stuff above. You are sure a regretful guy.
will you join me in NEVER referring to the Founding Fathers in pursuing a political agenda?
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I'd at least wait until they are burried.
Interesting thing about implications. Some see 'em. Some don't.
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More true than I think you realize. [:D]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 3:43:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By liberty86: Do you know exactly what Gen. Foss did for the CMO award??
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since you are having difficulties, I will post the citation in lieu of the link: "FOSS, JOSEPH JACOB Rank and organization: Captain, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, Marine Fighting Squadron 121, 1st Marine Aircraft Wing. Place and date: Over Guadalcanal, 9 October to 19 November 1942, 15 and 23 January 1943. Entered service at: South Dakota. Born: 17 April 1 915, Sioux Falls, S. Dak. Citation: For outstanding heroism and courage above and beyond the call of duty as executive officer of Marine Fighting Squadron 121, 1st Marine Aircraft Wing, at Guadalcanal. Engaging in almost daily combat with the enemy from 9 October to 19 November 1942, Capt. Foss personally shot down 23 Japanese planes and damaged others so severely that their destruction was extremely probable. In addition, during this period, he successfully led a large number of escort missions, skillfully covering reconnaissance, bombing, and photographic planes as well as surface craft. On 15 January 1943, he added 3 more enemy planes to his already brilliant successes for a record of aerial combat achievement unsurpassed in this war. Boldly searching out an approaching enemy force on 25 January, Capt. Foss led his 8 F-4F Marine planes and 4 Army P-38's into action and, undaunted by tremendously superior numbers, intercepted and struck with such force that 4 Japanese fighters were shot down and the bombers were turned back without releasing a single bomb. His remarkable flying skill, inspiring leadership, and indomitable fighting spirit were distinctive factors in the defense of strategic American positions on Guadalcanal. "
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Actually Raf, I'm having trouble seeing why he was awarded the CMO, based on the citation. I can definetly see a Navy Cross, and a presidential citation there, but looking at other CMO's, (most btw awarded posthumsly), one usually sees extreme personal danger in taking a position and thus saving lives, or some such as that. The guy was definatly an "ace", and mustered personal courage, but other than his record of shootdowns, the only thing he did the others didn't was lead,(actually, he was assistant leader, as the X.O.). Perhaps the citation doesn't tell the whole story. It may be interesting to see who his family was, however his courage certainly cannot be called into question as evidenced by his shootdown record. On the other hand, being as how neither you or I knows just how he voted as an nra board member, nor how hard he fought for rkba, it's hard to judge if he is "tainted" as you call it. WHO is a member, (or director), really doesn't concern me. What the organization DOES, (or doesn't do), does concern me. Hopefully not every American will get the idea from nra that all Americans are willing to compromise away rkba..... In looking back over the citation, I believe some details were definetly left out here. I just don't see a CMO. Could be they used him for his media value back home.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:05:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:19:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:23:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By raf: FWIW, I have flight simmed some of his missions on [red]MSCFSII[/red], and I have no idea how he did it.
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Well, I certainly can't argue with what you've said............'cause I don't know WHAT you said... [:D] I'm outta here, having too much trouble with the site. It's only here, I can surf every where else. Must be an "in crowd" thing..... (You know how us "tin-foil hat" types are) Later......
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:39:14 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 5:17:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 5:21:29 PM EST by imposter]
I guess what it boils down to is that there no correlation whatsoever between being a war hero and supporting RKBA. Gen. Foss was a hero and suported the NRA. Was he a die-hard RKBA supporter? That would really depend on his record on that particular issue, not on whether he was a war hero. Certainly there have been many war heroes, such and Bob Kerry and Adolf Hitler, who did not suppport the RKBA. Even the members of the NRA are not all die-hard RKBA supporters. Hell, Michael Moore is (supposedly) an NRA lifetime member. That does not automatically make him a good guy or a bad guy, nor does it make the NRA good or bad.
Originally Posted By raf: My guess is that he wouldn't mind being in one more fight.
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Well, that is your guess. But you can not ask him, can you? The Democrats really shot themselves in the foot with the Senator Wellstone debacle. Corpses need to cool before they can safely be paraded about. From one NRA member to another, I think it would be wise not to engage in the same failed tactics. It is worthwhile to memorialize Gen. Foss, as well as the fact that he was involved with the NRA. It embellishes the reputation of both without saying more. The implication that the anti-NRA crowd are disrespecting a war hero is unecessary and . . . sniff . . . hurtful. [>(][;)]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 7:36:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 8:30:52 PM EST
Any man that strapped into a Wildcat and slugged it out with Zeke is a hero in my book.
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