No, this is NOT being prejudice however I think that it is time the USA rethinks its policy on who we let into this country. Now I realize that probably none of us on this board are true native americans so that means that our ancestors were "foreigners", but things have changed. When our ancestors came here they brought knowledge, they brought skills and they brought a determination to make better lives for themselves, their families and their fellow man. Now it seems that all they bring is disease, murder, and disdain for their fellow man. Aren't you sick of hearing things like the one that just happended in kalifornia? No other countries in the world put up with what we put up with and its time that it stops! Americans have a hard enough tome as it is trying to get ahead- we don't need people who can't make it in their own countries making life harder for us here.

So, are you saying if there is one bad cop then let's ban the whole Justice Department?

Or if there is a gun been committed in a murder, let's ban all guns?

UhOh...This will go south fast

RLTW

Yeah! Everybody knows "real" Americans never commit any crimes...

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
When the skies of November turn gloomy.

With a load of iron ore - 26,000 tons more
Than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty
That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed
When the gales of November came early

The ship was the pride of the American side
Coming back from some mill in Wisconson
As the big freighters go it was bigger than most
With a crew and the Captain well seasoned.

Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms
When they left fully loaded for Cleveland
And later that night when the ships bell rang
Could it be the North Wind they'd been feeling.

The wind in the wires made a tattletale sound
And a wave broke over the railing
And every man knew, as the Captain did, too,
T'was the witch of November come stealing.

The dawn came late and the breakfast had to wait
When the gales of November came slashing
When afternoon came it was freezing rain
In the face of a hurricane West Wind

When supper time came the old cook came on deck
Saying fellows it's too rough to feed ya
At 7PM a main hatchway caved in
He said fellas it's been good to know ya.

The Captain wired in he had water coming in
And the good ship and crew was in peril
And later that night when his lights went out of sight
Came the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald.

Does anyone know where the love of God goes
When the words turn the minutes to hours
The searchers all say they'd have made Whitefish Bay
If they'd fifteen more miles behind her.

They might have split up or they might have capsized
They may have broke deep and took water
And all that remains is the faces and the names
Of the wives and the sons and the daughters.

Lake Huron rolls, Superior sings
In the ruins of her ice water mansion
Old Michigan steams like a young man's dreams,
The islands and bays are for sportsmen.

And farther below Lake Ontario
Takes in what Lake Erie can send her
And the iron boats go as the mariners all know
With the gales of November remembered.

In a musty old hall in Detroit they prayed
In the Maritime Sailors' Cathedral
The church bell chimed, 'til it rang 29 times
For each man on the Edmund Fitzgerald.

The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
Of the big lake they call Gitche Gumee
Superior, they say, never gives up her dead
When the gales of November come early.


--Chabot

satcong, post the music along with the words if possible.  HeHeHe

LOL, satcong. perfect answer to an at best trolling and at worst moronic statement. What's the name of the woman who killed her 5 kids? Soltys, Wong, Rodriguez,....?

...just the ramblings of an over-tired, over-worked fool.

First off, the term native American is a bunch of horse s#it. I am a native American, you are a native American and I don't know of anyone on this board that is not a native American.  Native means association by birth.  I understand who you are referring to, but native is not the term, just some liberal BS they teach you in grade school. People ask me where my ancestors came from, I say right here.  Many came over in the early 1600s, while I do know where they came from it is irrelevant.  

As far as immigrants coming over and causing crimes. IM not sure about in all cases but if the INS had done their damn JOB we would not have had this problem.  This guy was a crook and wacko over in the Ukraine and they still let his ass in.

And to kill off the Natives?...LOL!

An what was the name of the guy who blew up OK city building that killed women and children?

One should look into the mirror before accusing others....

Most foreigners have been programed by their government, ie the old commie countries (USSR), ie dictoral socialism (South America).  It's hard to de-program these people, who expect the government to dole out most everything.  They get little ebucation with the US laws, so easily side with the Socialist DemocRats.

America will be ruined by rampant immigration.
No one can compare the immigrants of yesteryear to most of the immigrants today.
America used to be the place where those tough enough could come and carve out their niche...
It has now become a place to accept peoples displaced by bad foriegn governments. Many of these people have no desire to become a part of a united American society...
A good example of this that many people may not know about is the liberal socialist haven known as Minneapolis, Minnesota.
The city has adopted a policy, since the days of the second wave of "black flight" from the south in the 60's, to take in absolutley anyone.
Now, on an idealogical platitude, this seems in line with the American ideal...
But you have to remember the American ideal that was in place which accepts imigrants also is governed by the ideal that they asimalate (S?), and work... With the current policy of unabated welfare, immigration will not gain us a fresh repository of productive citizens... It is only gaining us a new generation of dependants.
The Adoption of displaced southern blacks has caused Minneaoplis, formerly known as a model example of how a metropolitian city should be run, to decay into a cess pool with one of the highest murder rates in the land (It's new nickname is "Murderapolis)
To compound this, Minnesota also took in waves of Vietnamese Hmongs, Montengnards, and other immigrants after the war...
Their current policy is to accept hordes of Somilians, who have infested the city at an alarming proportion.
Pretty much, you can write Minneapolis comletely off...

You can't combine the American welfare state, with a free policy of immigration.
YOu can have either or.
Social programs for your existing citizens, or free immigration. You can't have both.

America will be ruined by rampant immigration.
No one can compare the immigrants of yesteryear to most of the immigrants today.
America used to be the place where those tough enough could come and carve out their niche...
It has now become a place to accept peoples displaced by bad foriegn governments. Many of these people have no desire to become a part of a united American society...
A good example of this that many people may not know about is the liberal socialist haven known as Minneapolis, Minnesota.
The city has adopted a policy, since the days of the second wave of "black flight" from the south in the 60's, to take in absolutley anyone.
Now, on an idealogical platitude, this seems in line with the American ideal...
But you have to remember the American ideal that was in place which accepts imigrants also is governed by the ideal that they asimalate (S?), and work... With the current policy of unabated welfare, immigration will not gain us a fresh repository of productive citizens... It is only gaining us a new generation of dependants.
The Adoption of displaced southern blacks has caused Minneaoplis, formerly known as a model example of how a metropolitian city should be run, to decay into a cess pool with one of the highest murder rates in the land (It's new nickname is "Murderapolis)
To compound this, Minnesota also took in waves of Vietnamese Hmongs, Montengnards, and other immigrants after the war...
Their current policy is to accept hordes of Somilians, who have infested the city at an alarming proportion.
Pretty much, you can write Minneapolis comletely off...

You can't combine the American welfare state, with a free policy of immigration.
YOu can have either or.
Social programs for your existing citizens, or free immigration. You can't have both.

There is no law that regulates where in America immigrants can live once they are legally admitted, and any such law would be violate the freedom to travel and be unconstitutional.  That being the case, Minneapolis has no say in who chooses to live there, so I do not understand what "policy" you refer to.

Or are you suggesting that Minneapolis pass a law outlawing residence by those ugly foreigners?

CK) Sorry I wasn't clear on that.
Minneapolis accepted the blacks under a specified program. They even advertised in Jet magazine!
"COME TO MINNEAPOLIS!"
They thought that they were gaining a new pool of labor, and that they were the same as whites...
Regarding the Hmongs, Montengnards, and Somilians, they sign off for them as a place of residence before they even get here.
It is a standing program with them.

Landon,
What rampant immigration? This country has one of the strictest policies in the world. I've got a Canadian friend who waited 15 years before he and his wife became citizens. OK, so they're Canadians, but you still should look at the stats over the decades. Merchants, especially those in tourist zones across this country, profit like kings off the backs of illegal immigrants while opposing living wage measures, knowing they fear deportation. How righteous, how ideally "American" is that? I'm not suggesting it's time for another Mariel boatlift, but as much as I think he's not President material, I think GW is right in considering permanency for people who have been here for years and years, people who have worked their asses off and lived productive lives. Haven't they earned the right? What would you have them do? I'm not laying in on you, the question is for anyone with a different idea.

So what would you have us do? Close our borders, not let anyone else in? While many bad eggs do get in, many good ones do as well. I had an uncle immigrate from S. Korea a few years back, he is a research scientist in the medical field (cancer). I would take one of him over 100 of you anyday.

With our policy of Political Asylum, er, no.
We don't have

Anyone who sets fot here from certain nations can immediatley claim asylum, regardless of intention, and stay.
Yes, people profit off of illegals. And this is WRONG! Illegal immigrants shouldn't be here in the first place for anyone to "profit" off of.
Reagarding Mariel, that is a classic example of the pain in the ass America and good, hardworking, legal immigrants must deal with under open immigration. The name the Cuban community had busted their asses to earn in America as being good, viable citizens, was besmyrched by Mariel, and the genetic trash it brought. Castro was brilliant there.
He effectivley said
"You want immigrants? Fine. Here. Take my homeless, and my child mollestors, and my felons, and my mentally ill..."
He emptied his genetic trash. And the processors at Freedom City couldn't screen them all properly, so many were let in. And VIOLA!
Miami, once known as the Rivera of the West coast devolved into "Miami Vice"...

Look, I feel your pains. I am not defending that Soltys maniac, he deserve everything he will get. Killing pregnant woman and children is not normal.  I hope that they will catch him soon and put him on the chair to fry.  But using the word "FOREIGNERS" is a big word. Blaming the foreigners for everything bad is politically incorrect. Yes, you can blame the immigration system, the INS for not doing their works. As far as we concern, the immigration laws have been changed dramatically since the 70s.  It is much harder to enter the U.S now than ever before.  The scrutiny, the security, and for health reasons, it is almost impossible to be admitted into the U.S without a good cause.  I don't know what to say about Soltys, but he is only one among thousand of good immigrants who got admitted into the U.S  

Landon,
They can claim asylum, but it's not an automatic approval. They go through hoops, and the fact that it takes so long to investigate the claim points to the complexity and perhaps the inefficiency of our government, but they're by no means automatically allowed in. Hell, I'd like to claim asylum in Tahiti to escape the tyranny of taxes in this country. Find me a nice Euro-Indonesian honey and start having a bunch of mutts.

I knew a guy who immigrated from Viet Nam about ten years ago. He just recently took his citizenship tests and he became an American citizen.
During the years before he became a citizen, he was considered one of those "foreigners." But now that he's a big bad "American Citizen", he's starting to sound like you. Now he complains about all the "bad" Viet Namese that are coming into "his" great nation.
Have you ever been hungry? Have you ever been persecuted because of your religion? Do you enjoy controlling your life? It's easy to complain and whine when we have so good.

Peace
John

The screening process for asylum cases from certian nations is simply finding out if they were murders or not, them summarily letting them in. Aside from the sponsorship issue (Which was done on a state wide level in Minnesota), there is no safeguards to assure they will be a viable, hardworking citizen.
Should we allow in scientists and Doctors?
Yes.
Should we allow in Pilots and Lawyers?
SURE!
Should we allow in someone who was a goat herder in his own homeland, who has 7 children, with no viable skills in America?
Well, ok, but I don't want to pay for his welfare, or for his children when he comes to the realization that there aren't many positions for goat herders here in America.
Can we re-train him?
Well, why should we have to pay for his training? It was his decision to come here.
There has to be a limit. People are like a cancer; be they white, black, red, or brown. They spread and spread and begat more people and those people begat more people and so on..
When does it end?
When we are like India or China, with a population so out of control, we are running out of land and food?
The door has to close sometome. I just hope is closes before we get to that point.

He has sounded form the trumpet that shall never call retreat
He is sifting out the hearts of men before His judgment-seat
Oh, be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.

Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
Glory! Glory! Hallelujah!
His truth is marching on.

ln the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in His bosom that transfigures you and me:
As He died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.

--From the Battle Hymn of the Republic.

But things don't really happen like that. We've all met cab drivers and janitors who were engineers in their country. If we only readily let in the cream of the crop, we open a whole can of worms about class discrimination. Besides, the money the government spends on training an immigrant is returned a thousand times in the taxes we'll bleed of him and his descendants over their lifetimes.

satcong,
 I need the words for One-eyed, One-horned, Flying Purple People Eater.

It isn't a matter of class discrimination. It's a matter of Americans looking out for America.
I know we have become the babysitters of the world as of late, but frankly, I would be lying if I said I cared about people in other countries. There is too much work socially that needs do be done here for me to be empathetic towards citizens of other nations. Magnify that sentiment 100 fold when they move here, and expect the working majority to deal with their probelms via social programs meant to benifit existing American citizens.

We as Americans have a finite, identifiable culture, and set of ideals based in an Western European idealogy. Like it or not. It is what it is. This nation was founded by white men, whether you can ever bring yourself to face that fact or not. If we screen potential citizens for past ills such as crimes, it makes sense to me that we screen them for cultural viability, and the ability to contribute.
And you know what that means?
That means we will probably let in more scientists from Finnland than we will grain farmers from Zimbabwe.
More scientists from Malasya and computer programmers from India than gangsters from Russia.
Why?
Because they benefit America.
We as a culture need to start looking out for our own society, as opposed to being the mommy of the world. The world will always have problems. That's what makes us all thank god we are Americans. But if you spend all your time mowing your neighbors lawn, your own lawn will overgrow. This is what is happening to us right now.
So, what should we do?
Since our neighbor has crabgrass, should we take some of that crabgrass from him, and plant it in our own lawns?
HELL NO!
America first, all others second.

Bhudda:

'Ere yeh go:

Well I saw the thing coming out of the sky
It had one long horn and one big eye
I commenced to shakin' and I said oo-wee
It looks like a purple people eater to me
It was a one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater
Sure looks good to me

Well, he came down to earth and he lit in a tree
I said mr Purple People Eater don't eat me
I heard him say in a voice so gruff
I wouldn't eat you 'cos you're too tough
It was a one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater
It sure looks strange to me

I said mr Purple People Eater what's your line
He said eating purple people and it sure is fine
But that's not the reason that I came to land
I wanna get a job in a rock 'n roll band
Well, bless my soul rock 'n roll flying' purple people eater
Pigeon-toed under-growed flyin' purple people eater
one-eyed one-horned it was a people eater
What a sight to see

Well, he swung from the tree and he lit on the ground
he started to rock really rockin' around
It was a crazy ditty with a swinging tune
Wop bop a lula wop bam boom
one-eyes one-horned flying people eater
Ooh, it sure looks strange to me

Well he went on his way and then what do you know
I saw him last night on a TV show
He was a blowin' it out and really knockin' them dead
Playing rock 'n roll music through the horn in his head

Not true.  People who arrive at the border and claim asylum are detained in an INS facility (jail) until their claim is processed.  They have to have a specific and credible claim of persecution.  People get deported all the time because their claims were found to be insufficient.  I am sure a certain number sneak through because of the subjectivity in the process, but it is nowhere near as automatic as you make it out to be.  On the flip side, there are also some people who get sent back (to an uncertain fate) when they were in fact deserving of asylum.

satcong,
LOL....Amazing.

raf,
I wouldn't question the stranger as much as I would question the guy who forced him on me. I actually agree with you in many respects. I think we need to look closer at our government and the interest groups. Immigration problems aren't really the fauly of immigrants. If it's not obvious by now, I'm an immigrant. I'm biased in favor of immigration. However, I don't think we should open the doors wide open nor do I think we should seal them. There is a middle ground. What Landon says about weighing the benefits of a potential immigrant to this country is partly true. However, so much of that benefit lies in potential of the person. I know many, many immigrants of various races who came to this country - some of them very established and educated - who saw the potential to create a whole new other way of life. This country gives people that, and I think we should definitely reward those kinds of people. About the POS that gets through, you can't prevent that completely and you can't let the chance of that ruin it for the overwhelmingly good lot out there.

so where's gunner-1?

Sorry I was wrong...Anyone can swim accross the Rio Grande from South of border become automatically "Native American" (if Bush sign the bill)

Scrutiny?  What scrutiny?
Security?  What security?
Health?    Who care?
Reason?    They are here!

I was out mowing the lawn. I'm glad to see that this topic sparked some interest. Some of you are right when you say that Americans are guilty of many crimes as well as Foreigners ( perhaps I should use the term immigrants instead.) However I feel that you miss my point. As Americans by birth, we have enough internal problems such as hunger, violence, and a class system that is so varied it's a God Damn embarrassment and the last thing we need is to have other people come to America whether it's legally or otherwise and causing problems for the law abiding citizens who break their backs everyday to support their families or themselves. I know this country is seen as a land of hope and opportunity but I think the opportunities should be ours FIRST.

CK) I'm going to go and dig up some links for you at the INS site...

Citizens of some nations are [b]IMMEDIATLEY[/b] admitted under PA, and the only safeguards after that point are to see if they were [i]serious[/i] criminals in their homelands. Since records of many of these nations are virtually inaccesable, there aren't sutiable safeguards.
The current wave of Somilians in Minnesota are an example.
Immediate Asylum.

Of course when I lived in Korea for a few years and asked some coworkers what they would do if 2,000,000 or less immigrants came upon their shores ....they said ..."war!"  [:)]

Landon,
 Didn't the U.S. do the same for a small number of folks from Kosovo? How many Somalians? Where are the hard-core separatists? I can't believe this thread is still civilized.

satcong,
 I need the lyrics to the Bobby Darrin tune, "Somewhere, beyond the sea..."

Is this it?

Somewhere beyond the sea
Somewhere waiting for me
My lover stands on golden sands
And watches the ships that go sailing

Somewhere beyond the sea
She's there watching for me
If I could fly like birds on high
Then straight to her arms
I'd go sailing

It's far beyond the stars
It's near beyond the moon
I know beyond a doubt
My heart will lead me there soon

We'll meet beyond the shore
We'll kiss just as before
Happy we'll be beyond the sea
And never again I'll go sailing

I know beyond a doubt
My heart will lead me there soon
We'll meet beyond the shore
We'll kiss just as before
Happy we'll be beyond the sea
And never again I'll go sailing

No more sailing
So long sailing
Bye bye sailing

To put it simply immigration is a real problem.  IMNSHO I think that if you want welfare you can get it for say 3 months.  Then you had better have a job or else we should Deport your @!$ to where ever the heck you came from.

Well then the libs bring up the children.  Well deport them with there parents.  The PRIMARY job of a PARENT is to care for their children.  I should not have to care for them and neither should my hard earned money have to go to them because their parents are to lazy to get a job.  

Ok my speal on immigrants is done.  Stay tuned for my speal on citizens on welfare

Thousands and thousands and thousands of Somilians.

As far as the folks from Kosovo?
Same thinking applies. I don't think they should be let in just because they are "white"-

satcong,
haha...what's your source?

I guarantee you that a larger percentage of Americans are criminals than first or second generation immigrants.  The demise of this country will not be due to immigrants.  It will be due to the general social degradation, laziness, lack of respect, etc.  Anyway, check out this link and tell me what you think of it.

[url]http://www.lp.org/issues/immigration.html[/url]

Regarding the percentage of Americans involved in crime in contrast to immigrants, that isn't a core issue. There will always be crime in any society, be it from the natives, or from someone else. Crime is only a partial issue with rampant immigration.

Reagarding the Libertarian point of view, well, all I can say is the libertarian party is as idealist as Democrats can be at times.
While they support the right for prostitutes to sniff coke off the barrels of .50 BMG's, they don't see the potential conqiquence of govermental endorsment of such behavior.

Their policy on immigration is equally based in la-la land.
Certianlly we will always need people to sweep the streets, and pick the potatos. And the cheap unskilled labor of immigrants fits that bill. But the libertarians are taking a purely economic view on it, rather then taking in to account more paramount concerns, such as the longview regarding  socitial conciquences of allowing such people in.
While it may keep the price of carrots and watermellons down, there are detriments that outweigh any possible benifit.

Bhudda:

It's simple as pie.  Just type the name of any song or part of it....into the google search engine, and Lo, there I can see the lyrics....gotta love it..[;)]

Hell if you want to come to America to be an AMERICAN (NOT A HYPHENATED AMERICAN) that is good. If you want to come here and waive the flag and celebrate HOLIDAYS of your previous contry, collect welfare, refuse to learn the language the founding documents were written in, and want to destroy this country by voting for socialists, then YOU DO NOT BELONG HERE.

Gotta go with Brog, here.

toris