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Posted: 4/19/2007 9:30:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 9:32:33 AM EDT by VTDefender]
I received an email today from a family member asking about something he read in the new york times this morning.

"Josh:

This was in a New York Times article this morning and I sense the underlined numbers are not credible. What thinks you?

CB

“There are nearly 200 million firearms in private hands in the U.S., and more than 30,000 people — nearly 10 times the total number of Americans who have died in Iraq — are killed by those guns each year. In 1966 Americans were being killed by guns at the rate of 17,000 a year. An article in The Times examining such “rampages” as the Charles Whitman shootings said:

“Whatever the motivation, it seems clear that the way is made easier by the fact that guns of all sorts are readily available to Americans of all shades of morality and mentality.”

We’ve learned very little in 40 years.”



I've been fighting the 2nd ammendment battle for a long time and I'm well aware of where these numbers come from. Following is my response to him :

CB:

The 30,000 number is accurate.

CDC mortality stats from 2004(most recent year surveyed) puts it at 29,569.

What they dont tell you is that they include suicides, legal self defense shoots and accidental deaths in the stats.

Suicides account for more than half. 2004 suicides by firearm - 16,750.

This leaves 12,819 NON suicides.

Legal shoots account for only 311 unfortunately.

Unintentional shoots only account for 649.

Homicides account for the remaining 11,624

Those are the actual stats.

Here's something else thats kind of interesting.

From the CDC Mortality Statistics center.

Homicides in which a gun was used as the instrument:

2004(most recent year available)

Vermont, Virtually no gun laws, no permit required to own or carry, no waiting periods.....Just a simple quick call to the FBI to perform a background check.

2004 Firearm Homicides - 2 thats right.....TWO

Washington DC. All out handgun ban. No provision for carrying, near impossible to own, it is a de facto "Gun Free Zone"

2004 Firearm Homicides - 137

For those that blame the population sizes....VT has roughly 100,000 MORE people than the district of Columbia.

Josh

www.handgunclub.com
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:32:50 AM EDT
Nice.

You dont happen to have a breakdown of that 11,000 based on race do you?

And before anyone asks, its in relation to a thread i read on another board which did a breakdown showing deaths per 100,000 with whites being 5 and blacks being 43. That sounds pretty damned skewed to me, I simply want the correct information.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:35:29 AM EDT
You can break it down by race here:

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html


I'd like to add that I think cherrypicking the stats to suit an agenda is BS regardless of the side doing it.

Report the stats and let people draw their own conclusions.

Suicides in my book have nothing to do with violent crime. The only numbers that I think are viable to use when discussing gun control are the straight up homicide rates. The New York Times obviously has no problem misrepresenting the numbers though.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:37:40 AM EDT

Legal shoots account for only 311 unfortunately.

Unintentional shoots only account for 649.

Homicides account for the remaining 11,624


Where are you getting these numbers? It's my understanding that any time a human being kills another human being it's labeled a "homicide" in the CDC stats. It seems incredible that there can be only 311 "legal shoots" in a year.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:39:10 AM EDT
tag---good info
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:39:14 AM EDT
CDC lumps it under "Violence Related" but you can further seperate it by "Homicide" and "Legal Intervention".

Follow the link in my previous post. It's all there.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:43:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 9:43:45 AM EDT by danno-in-michigan]

Originally Posted By VTDefender:
CDC lumps it under "Violence Related" but you can further seperate it by "Homicide" and "Legal Intervention".

Follow the link in my previous post. It's all there.


from the CDC website:

Legal intervention: Injury or poisoning caused by police or other legal authorities (including security guards) during law enforcement activities. Includes injuries and poisonings (mace, pepper spray) inflicted during legal action or execution, or while attempting to enforce the law such as arrest or restraint of arrested persons.


So if a 19-year old gangbanger breaks into granny's house intending to rape her and granny shoots him it's a "homicide" in the CDC stats and, according to the Brady's stats, another "child" killed by gun violence.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:45:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 9:46:13 AM EDT by VTDefender]

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:

Originally Posted By VTDefender:
CDC lumps it under "Violence Related" but you can further seperate it by "Homicide" and "Legal Intervention".

Follow the link in my previous post. It's all there.


from the CDC website:

Legal intervention: Injury or poisoning caused by police or other legal authorities (including security guards) during law enforcement activities. Includes injuries and poisonings (mace, pepper spray) inflicted during legal action or execution, or while attempting to enforce the law such as arrest or restraint of arrested persons.


So if a 19-year old gangbanger breaks into granny's house intending to rape her and granny shoots him it's a "homicide" in the CDC stats (and, according to the Brady's stats another "child" killed by gun violence.



Sounds about right. It's too bad the stats arent available to show legal self defense shootings by citizens. Your post just furthers the argument that the statistics used by the NYT and Brady are skewed and cherry picked to induce hysteria......not to educate people on the actual numbers.

ETA: If anyone has those stats I would be VERY interested in adding them to my argument arsanel.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:48:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By danno-in-michigan:
So if a 19-year old gangbanger breaks into granny's house intending to rape her and granny shoots him it's a "homicide" in the CDC stats and, according to the Brady's stats, another "child" killed by gun violence.


Precisely.

To be fair, ANY killing of another human being is labeled homicide legally....but there is a class of homicide where it is deemed justifiable, aka justifiable homicide.

Anything not justifiable falls under the murder/manslaughter categories.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:50:48 AM EDT
A further note about the "gun deaths" numbers.

They have always been at least 50% suicide...but other nations with stricter gun control than the US have suicide rates that are MUCH HIGHER than the US. Japan, for instance....

Something else to keep in mind when someone starts blubbering about the 12-17,000 people every year who off themselves with a gun. Getting rid of the guns doesn't stop people from offing themselves any more than it reduces the overall violent crime rate.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:54:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2007 9:56:12 AM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By VTDefender:
Here's something else thats kind of interesting.

From the CDC Mortality Statistics center.

Homicides in which a gun was used as the instrument:

2004(most recent year available)

Vermont, Virtually no gun laws, no permit required to own or carry, no waiting periods.....Just a simple quick call to the FBI to perform a background check.

2004 Firearm Homicides - 2 thats right.....TWO

Washington DC. All out handgun ban. No provision for carrying, near impossible to own, it is a de facto "Gun Free Zone"

2004 Firearm Homicides - 137

For those that blame the population sizes....VT has roughly 100,000 MORE people than the district of Columbia.

Josh

www.handgunclub.com


{hands over ears}

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