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Posted: 1/25/2018 7:54:47 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He's just nervous because this man was seen whispering into the ears of everyone who shot the Reformation at Shot Show. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/236039/Slugworth-431357.JPG 
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Posted: 1/25/2018 8:01:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Like i said, I agree sending in letters as a citizen is silly but when you're bringing a product to market it makes sense to make sure it's legal for your customers to own before you land them in hot water. As others mentioned there are countless examples of this going wrong. Probably the most notable was the akins accelerator who "totally had an ok from ATF guys, totally". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I guess to verify the same as FA. It’s every Tom, Dick, and Harry sending in requests for letters of clarification that really is unnecessary. As others mentioned there are countless examples of this going wrong. Probably the most notable was the akins accelerator who "totally had an ok from ATF guys, totally". ETA: Thinking about it, one could look at that instance and conclude just how worthless a “letter” really is. |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 8:03:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't find FA's refusal to post a letter of classification, even if it Is redacted, interesting? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Have they said they got a letter? It looks straight up Title 1, no particular need for a letter. Didn't they say they were going to release the rifle @ the same time as the ammo, and they're just now talking to ammo companies? I wonder if this thing wouldn't do better as a 9x19mm or .45 ACP carbine - if we're just going to throw spinning golf balls, the bigger the better, no? ETA: It’s been what, two weeks since their announcement and two days since the unveiling at SHOT Show. They’re not even on the market yet. ETA: They manufacture and sell their Binary Trigger, they probably know who to contact at the ATF for product review - not their first rodeo. ETA: Just saying, they’ve BTDT. Give them a little credit. |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 8:28:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right now? No. When they’re actually producing and selling them? Yes. ETA: It’s been what, two weeks since their announcement and two days since the unveiling at SHOT Show. They’re not even on the market yet. ETA: They manufacture and sell their Binary Trigger, they probably know who to contact at the ATF for product review - not their first rodeo. ETA: Just saying, they’ve BTDT. Give them a little credit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Have they said they got a letter? It looks straight up Title 1, no particular need for a letter. Didn't they say they were going to release the rifle @ the same time as the ammo, and they're just now talking to ammo companies? I wonder if this thing wouldn't do better as a 9x19mm or .45 ACP carbine - if we're just going to throw spinning golf balls, the bigger the better, no? ETA: It’s been what, two weeks since their announcement and two days since the unveiling at SHOT Show. They’re not even on the market yet. ETA: They manufacture and sell their Binary Trigger, they probably know who to contact at the ATF for product review - not their first rodeo. ETA: Just saying, they’ve BTDT. Give them a little credit. |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 8:45:43 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 1/25/2018 8:55:21 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote History
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Posted: 1/25/2018 8:55:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, I will file an FOIA and will post the letter here when I receive it from ATF..... As you know there is no such thing as an "approval". The letter will describe it's classification under the GCA and NFA and the technical data is not protected under FOIA and is kinda the point of the FOIA in the first place. You also know that it would be illegal for Mr. Curtis outside of FOIA to speak to me about your company or it's projects.....You're being kind of disingenuous with your coy answer. Do what I want or I'll file papers that might fuck with you, are you 12 
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Posted: 1/25/2018 8:58:17 PM EDT
[#8]
i want to see this thing go up against a tantal with one of the shitty barrels that keyholed
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:01:09 PM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:01:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i want to see this thing go up against a tantal with one of the shitty barrels that keyholed |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:01:50 PM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:36:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And if I caught things right your being kind of a asshole, yep looks like you make that piece of SHIT Shock wave , so you want to fuck with the Competition , yea I'd be worried to if I was marketing that shockwave too Do what I want or I'll file papers that might fuck with you, are you 12 |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:39:14 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote History |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:42:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe that football needs some fins. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe that football needs some fins. |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:46:54 PM EDT
[#15]
I am really surprised a company like this thought this would be a great idea and actually invested a lot in it. I wish them success, but it just seems they really were off the mark in gauging the market. Reminds me of Trounds or those gyrojet guns/projectiles.
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:47:15 PM EDT
[#16]
This page made me lol till I cried.
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:48:53 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And if I caught things right your being kind of a asshole, yep looks like you make that piece of SHIT Shock wave , so you want to fuck with the Competition , yea I'd be worried to if I was marketing that shockwave too Do what I want or I'll file papers that might fuck with you, are you 12
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:55:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm guessing the target will look something like this. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/236039/K-431186.JPG Hard to believe there's a serious discussion about this being a worthwhile trade off for getting a stock over a brace (crazy expensive proprietary ammo is an equally poor trade off, IMO). But I suppose there's always at least a few people willing to buy anything. I'm sure Mossberg even sold a few of those chainsaw shotgun grips. some M855 in it. That was what the target looked like.......at about twenty five yards. Now that I think about it, if that is what the target looks like with standard ammo and SOME twist, standard ammo and NO twist is going to be horrible. And my apologies if it has been posted, but apparently even with twist, the military claims underspun 5.56 is only effective to about 90 meters: see M855 https://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/ammunition-types-and-char.shtml Have you guys considered ONLY 300 blackout with a sabot/flechette load? A 1 1/4 #11 roofing nail with the head hammered flat would probably fly straighter than standard ammo. |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:56:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, it is the Falcons so...
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Posted: 1/25/2018 9:57:21 PM EDT
[#20]
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You live in Georgia and you think either of those teams are the Falcons? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Well, it is the Falcons so... |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 10:09:22 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't find FA's refusal to post a letter of classification, even if it Is redacted, interesting? |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 10:14:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am really surprised a company like this thought this would be a great idea and actually invested a lot in it. I wish them success, but it just seems they really were off the mark in gauging the market. Reminds me of Trounds or those gyrojet guns/projectiles. |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 10:23:04 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm guessing they've not written a letter, or more likely, BATFE hasn't responded in time for SHOT show. They decided to tease it now, and work on the ammo until they hear back from Tech Branch. |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 11:14:49 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Shit you’re right. I was looking at the ticker below Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: Well, it is the Falcons so... 
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Posted: 1/25/2018 11:33:14 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't remember asking for this. Any of you guys remember asking for this? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Lol. We're given what we want but don't want it once it's given. Finicky. |
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Posted: 1/25/2018 11:41:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think they have a lot invested. They've made a few barrels, one press release, and an interview. They've spent some money on a screw machine, but they can flip that for what they have in it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I am really surprised a company like this thought this would be a great idea and actually invested a lot in it. I wish them success, but it just seems they really were off the mark in gauging the market. Reminds me of Trounds or those gyrojet guns/projectiles. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:19:34 AM EDT
[#27]
The is a bullshit, hyped-up product that nobody will buy.
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:44:30 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The is a bullshit, hyped-up product that nobody will buy. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:58:14 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They will sell a few for the novelty, but it isn't going to be a major seller. Nice exercise in how dumb the laws are, and how useless a straight bore is.
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Posted: 1/26/2018 1:10:24 AM EDT
[#30]
A lot of people are talking about air rifles and paintball guns which leads me to wonder: if you are going to go down that road of developing a new, proprietary bullet, why not try for something other than a center-fire cartridge.
That very well could put the weapon beyond the GCA/NFA entirely. Since 15th century technology is all the rage again, maybe some lesser known cartridge types could be brought back and examined.
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Posted: 1/26/2018 7:34:45 AM EDT
[#31]
@angus6
@franklinarmory For the record: 1) I am not marketing the "shockwave" or any other version of the "pistol gripped shotgun like firearm" (Nor have I ever). 2) I am not in competition with Franklin Armory on any level. 3) I have sued the ATF successfully under FOIA several times and I can assure you that ATF classification letters are very much accessible under FOIA. 4) I know that under US v. Brady ATF classification letters are also available in discovery for any defendant who may be accused violating the NFA. The Franklin Armory classification letter must be released in discovery (and possibly already released as such) in Federal court if one were charged with possession or manufacture of an unregistered SBR. 5) This is not about being an asshole....Franklin Armory is marketing a product and making extraordinary claims the government has told them it is "approved" then have declined to show proof of the claim.....I do not want innocent folks to loose their money, freedom, or have to have the "man" come into their life. (As has happened in US v. Wrenn and US v. Clark et al). 6) The response by Franklin Armory was to ask FTB about the so called approval.....KNOWING that FTB CAN NOT respond that way....most folks are completely unaware of how this works. I stand by my claim that the remark by Franklin Armory is disingenuous. If that is being an asshole then I guess I am guilty.....
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Posted: 1/26/2018 11:39:21 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@angus6 @franklinarmory For the record: 1) I am not marketing the "shockwave" or any other version of the "pistol gripped shotgun like firearm" (Nor have I ever). 2) I am not in competition with Franklin Armory on any level. 3) I have sued the ATF successfully under FOIA several times and I can assure you that ATF classification letters are very much accessible under FOIA. 4) I know that under US v. Brady ATF classification letters are also available in discovery for any defendant who may be accused violating the NFA. The Franklin Armory classification letter must be released in discovery (and possibly already released as such) in Federal court if one were charged with possession or manufacture of an unregistered SBR. 5) This is not about being an asshole....Franklin Armory is marketing a product and making extraordinary claims the government has told them it is "approved" then have declined to show proof of the claim.....I do not want innocent folks to loose their money, freedom, or have to have the "man" come into their life. (As has happened in US v. Wrenn and US v. Clark et al). 6) The response by Franklin Armory was to ask FTB about the so called approval.....KNOWING that FTB CAN NOT respond that way....most folks are completely unaware of how this works. I stand by my claim that the remark by Franklin Armory is disingenuous. If that is being an asshole then I guess I am guilty..... |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 11:43:45 AM EDT
[#33]
As I thought, Badselfeater. Retarded.
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Posted: 1/26/2018 11:46:50 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That picture reminds me of how I discovered that my Daewoo K2 has a 1/12 barrel. I tried some M855 in it. That was what the target looked like.......at about twenty five yards. Now that I think about it, if that is what the target looks like with standard ammo and SOME twist, standard ammo and NO twist is going to be horrible. And my apologies if it has been posted, but apparently even with twist, the military claims underspun 5.56 is only effective to about 90 meters: see M855 https://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/ammunition-types-and-char.shtml Have you guys considered ONLY 300 blackout with a sabot/flechette load? A 1 1/4 #11 roofing nail with the head hammered flat would probably fly straighter than standard ammo. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 11:50:46 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I mentioned this earlier in the thread, it seems we have all young'uns here that have never tried M855 from a 1:12. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That picture reminds me of how I discovered that my Daewoo K2 has a 1/12 barrel. I tried some M855 in it. That was what the target looked like.......at about twenty five yards. Now that I think about it, if that is what the target looks like with standard ammo and SOME twist, standard ammo and NO twist is going to be horrible. And my apologies if it has been posted, but apparently even with twist, the military claims underspun 5.56 is only effective to about 90 meters: see M855 https://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/ammunition-types-and-char.shtml Have you guys considered ONLY 300 blackout with a sabot/flechette load? A 1 1/4 #11 roofing nail with the head hammered flat would probably fly straighter than standard ammo. Shot some Brit SA80 ammo and it sucked too. It was stable but seamed pretty weak. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 11:52:22 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For the record: .I do not want innocent folks to loose their money, freedom, or have to have the "man" come into their life. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 11:59:08 AM EDT
[#37]
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Sorry, but your credibility went right out the window with this one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the record: .I do not want innocent folks to loose their money, freedom, or have to have the "man" come into their life. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:01:07 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry, but your credibility went right out the window with this one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the record: .I do not want innocent folks to loose their money, freedom, or have to have the "man" come into their life. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:04:21 PM EDT
[#39]
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Spelling error aside, prove that he's wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the record: .I do not want innocent folks to loose their money, freedom, or have to have the "man" come into their life. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:05:14 PM EDT
[#40]
Lol, gun people really do their damnedest to discourage firms to think outside of the box or try new shit.
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:15:33 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol, gun people really do their damnedest to discourage firms to think outside of the box or try new shit. It was 1. Reasonably priced 2. had the utility of a PGO shotgun but the shortness of an sbs 3. innovated and didn't require a tax stamp 4. WASNT HYPED UP LIKE A GOLDEN SHIT NUGGET A WEEK PRIOR TO ITS REVEAL BY ITS COMPANY I'll let you separate what's different between that, which most of us adore, and this franklin armory thing. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:15:57 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol, gun people really do their damnedest to discourage firms to think outside of the box or try new shit. You must not know me or my past designs or my exposure to criminal cases as a firearms expert. I do believe our industry has a responsibility to be up front and provide proof of our claims of government approval when they are made and I have seen first hand the damage done when we don't. So yes, I am holding Franklin Armory to the same standard I hold the ATF to....That is to say: Show proof of the claim you are making. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:18:28 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So yes I am holding Franklin Armory to the same standard I hold the ATF to....That is to say: Show proof of your claim. 5. Actually published their ATF letter when they announced the damn gun |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:20:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Sorry edited by me. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:29:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry edited by me. Maybe to slow down others in regards to making their own straight rifling or smooth bore versions. The time it takes to get shit answered by BATFE; may as well wait for a copy of someone else's letter to pop up on the interwebs. I'd be surprised if some barrel maker wasn't already tooling up or already running a smooth bore or straight rifled barrel for the builder market. ETA: Why edit that question and remove it? |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:48:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reasons for not posting the approval letter now, prior to the hitting the market? Maybe to slow down others in regards to making their own straight rifling or smooth bore versions. The time it takes to get shit answered by BATFE; may as well wait for a copy of someone else's letter to pop up on the interwebs. I'd be surprised if some barrel maker wasn't already tooling up or already running a smooth bore or straight rifled barrel for the builder market. ETA: Why edit that question and remove it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sorry edited by me. Maybe to slow down others in regards to making their own straight rifling or smooth bore versions. The time it takes to get shit answered by BATFE; may as well wait for a copy of someone else's letter to pop up on the interwebs. I'd be surprised if some barrel maker wasn't already tooling up or already running a smooth bore or straight rifled barrel for the builder market. ETA: Why edit that question and remove it? Everything that's happening in this thread is on them. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 12:56:03 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote History |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 2:25:25 PM EDT
[#48]
Was thinking about this. I'd buy one* for one reason. Just to give the middle finger to the NFA act.
* the PSA version that will be out in a few months. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 2:32:18 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Was thinking about this. I'd buy one* for one reason. Just to give the middle finger to the NFA act. * the PSA version that will be out in a few months. This is just jerking it to some lingerie pictures in the JC Penny catalogue, while talking about how you're going to fuck Megan Fox. |
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Posted: 1/26/2018 2:52:49 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is just jerking it to some lingerie pictures in the JC Penny catalogue, while talking about how you're going to fuck Megan Fox. 
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