Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Posted: 10/2/2011 1:37:28 PM EST
So the Arizona shooter is being forcibly medicated. If he was off meds, and mentally deficient, doesn't this take away his possible defense of insanity? Are all mentally ill high-profile defendants forcibly medicated?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:39:21 PM EST
He can't even stand trial until he is mentally competent enough to understand the proceedings.

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:39:33 PM EST
Pretty much anybody who enters the "mental health care system" loses their right to refuse "treatment".

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:41:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By wingnutx:
He can't even stand trial until he is mentally competent enough to understand the proceedings.



But there's the issue. Make him well enough to stand trial? If he was not well when the crime was committed......

Just curious how this works legally to allow the defendant a fair defense.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:44:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By webtaz99:
Pretty much anybody who enters the "mental health care system" loses their right to refuse "treatment".



Not true. If you are convicted you lose your rights. Until proven guilty they can't medicate you against your will. I believe that this is why the AZ shooter was able to refuse his meds. He hasn't been proven guilty yet and still has his right to refuse medicine.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:54:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Originally Posted By webtaz99:
Pretty much anybody who enters the "mental health care system" loses their right to refuse "treatment".



Not true. If you are convicted you lose your rights. Until proven guilty they can't medicate you against your will. I believe that this is why the AZ shooter was able to refuse his meds. He hasn't been proven guilty yet and still has his right to refuse medicine.


Not true. They can medicate you against your will if you are unable to make rational decisions and such. Guarantor makes the decisions for your health.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:55:52 PM EST
Anyone else see the headline and think this was going to be a Rick Perry thread?

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:56:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Originally Posted By webtaz99:
Pretty much anybody who enters the "mental health care system" loses their right to refuse "treatment".



Not true. If you are convicted you lose your rights. Until proven guilty they can't medicate you against your will. I believe that this is why the AZ shooter was able to refuse his meds. He hasn't been proven guilty yet and still has his right to refuse medicine.


If you are determined by a doc to be a risk to self or others, you may be held in a hospital against your will for 72 hours(states probably vary slightly on all this) before an application for continued committal has to be presented to the courts. If the doc also feels you are not in control of yourself and an immediate threat to self or others, you can also have a psychiatric emergency declared, which allows forced medication for up to 72 hours (renewable) . This is before there is any committal court and has nothing to do with criminal court. Once you have been held against your will in an institution the maximum time (7 business days here), the court then decides. If the court commits you to an institution, they may also order "treatment over objection", which may include forced medication. None of this has anything to do with any criminal charges/convictions. If a person is found by a criminal court to be "insane", then committal is an almost certainty and it is pretty likely that, at least initially, treatment over objection will also be mandated.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 1:56:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Not true. If you are convicted you lose your rights. Until proven guilty they can't medicate you against your will. I believe that this is why the AZ shooter was able to refuse his meds. He hasn't been proven guilty yet and still has his right to refuse medicine.

False. You can be medicated like a motherfucker as soon as a judge signs the order.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 2:32:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:

Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Not true. If you are convicted you lose your rights. Until proven guilty they can't medicate you against your will. I believe that this is why the AZ shooter was able to refuse his meds. He hasn't been proven guilty yet and still has his right to refuse medicine.

False. You can be medicated like a motherfucker as soon as a judge signs the order.


False. You can be medicated like a motherfucker for up to 7 business days BEFORE a judge signs the order. Medical facilities tend to do things a bit differently than psych facilities, and the laws vary a little between states, but all it takes is a doc (for the short term) not a judge.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 2:34:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By wingnutx:
Anyone else see the headline and think this was going to be a Rick Perry thread?



Link Posted: 10/2/2011 2:37:03 PM EST
Az needs to take over the case.

As long as he knew what he was doing, and knew the possible consequences of his actions, we can execute him here in Az

His online searches alone show that he planned this and researched the consequences.

Let us have a crack at him, the only possible issue is the liberal Pima County CA/DA will try to protect her pal Sheriff Dupnik and his family connection to the Loughners.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 2:43:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:15:10 PM EST
Medicated, not medicated, it appears he's about as off his stump either way.

It's not what arfcom wants to hear, but I see a plea bargain involving life in a mental hospital when it's all over and done with
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:21:51 PM EST
If forced meds are no big deal then why is Lautner not being forced to take his meds?
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:31:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bhart89:
If forced meds are no big deal then why is Lautner not being forced to take his meds?

He's got a legal team fighting it.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:41:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By Timco:
Originally Posted By wingnutx:
He can't even stand trial until he is mentally competent enough to understand the proceedings.



But there's the issue. Make him well enough to stand trial? If he was not well when the crime was committed......
Just curious how this works legally to allow the defendant a fair defense.


Wondered this too...
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:45:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:47:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By joker581:


I doubt that the medication is intended to make him fit to stand trial.


That's just what I keep hearing on the news.

<- Not a lawyer
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:55:36 PM EST
A friend of mine just recently got tossed in a mental health unit, and she claimed she was "forced" medications.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 4:57:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By jaholder1971:

It's not what arfcom wants to hear, but I see a plea bargain involving life in a mental hospital when it's all over and done with


Not sure about how it works in all states, but that would not be possible in Maine. If the person undergoes treatment and is no longer deemed a threat, then they have to be released eventually. We had a guy that literally broke into a convent and murdered multiple nuns. He was released after 14 years when he got better and remained compliant with his medications. He is still closely monitored, but more or less a "free" man.

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:38:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By wingnutx:
He can't even stand trial until he is mentally competent enough to understand the proceedings.



Absolutely correct.

Jared Laughner... he gave up what little autonomy he had over his life when he started pulling the trigger on the Glock. At this point, he's a prisoner under arrest for murder awaiting trial. His mental status is affecting the speed and effectiveness at which the proceeding can work.

What are his choices?

He can refuse medication and continue being bat shit insane out of his right mind and plagued with an illness I hope and pray none of us will ever understand or experience.

He can accept medications... and allow the evidence against him to be brought to trail and participate as a semi-autonomous person in his own defense.

If he chooses, as he has so far, to refuse medications to control his illness he leaves himself and those who must prosecute and defend him little choice.

He's a special class of persons, an At Risk person, incapable of making competent decisions for himself. So, the state is forced to make decisions on his behalf. The state has to assume that he wishes to control his illness to participate in his defense and to do that his illness must be controlled so that he can begin to understand the nature of the charges being brought against him.

Does he understand what he's done? Maybe. I don't know. The only person that really knows is Jared himself. And unless he can be brought into some semblance of sanity even he himself may not know exactly what he's done and what the ramifications and consequences of his actions are.

Is there anyone who doubts that he's mentally incompetent to stand trial for what he's done without proper medication to control his illness?

Further complicating the situation are conflicting state laws regarding forced medication of` mentally unstable prisoners. Arizona wants it their way. And while he's housed in Missouri, he falls under Missouri law for medicating prisoners which are substantially different from Arizona's laws.

And be sure, his defense attorneys are very busy making sure that none of his Constitutional rights or human rights are abrogated accidentally or intentionally by anyone at any point in the proceedings!

The big question is how to judge and establish his ability to understand the charges being brought against him.

Jared is in a real tough spot. The federal government wants to bring in the death penalty for killing the judge. Arizona wants to bring in its own death penalty for murder. Did Jared intend to kill the judge or was the judge simply in the way when he was trying to kill Representative Giffords?

Jared is facing the death penalty in either case but there has to a decision about whether or not the feds or Arizona are going to proceed with the prosecution. Until Jared is able to explain his intentions or a competent legal authority can discern his motivations for his actions... Jared will likely be force medicated while he's in Arizona while further legal issues regarding the physical location of his prison are worked out.

Will the feds or Arizona state impose the death penalty on a mentally incompetent adult? We'll see.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 5:46:03 PM EST
Here, Brian David Mitchell who abducted Elizabeth Smart was forcibly medicated until he was fit to stand trial and was put away for a long time.

That case, and the Arizona shooting case, both show a clearly incompetent person being made better or medicated to be a good defendant.

Can they still plead insanity or a lesser charge if they were either 1)undiagnosed and just crazy or 2)off their meds and did not understand or know things were going where they were? You can be off meds, or insane, and search evil shit......
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:32:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By Maine_11B_to_Nurse:
Originally Posted By jaholder1971:

It's not what arfcom wants to hear, but I see a plea bargain involving life in a mental hospital when it's all over and done with


Not sure about how it works in all states, but that would not be possible in Maine. If the person undergoes treatment and is no longer deemed a threat, then they have to be released eventually. We had a guy that literally broke into a convent and murdered multiple nuns. He was released after 14 years when he got better and remained compliant with his medications. He is still closely monitored, but more or less a "free" man.



From everything I've seen of this guy, the meds are being forced to keep him sedated enough to handle. The whole "competent to stand trial" is still a huge question mark out there. Hell, last i saw it was the prosecutors who wanted him held for more treatment.
Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:38:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By Kevyn:
Originally Posted By wingnutx:
He can't even stand trial until he is mentally competent enough to understand the proceedings.



Absolutely correct.

Jared Laughner... he gave up what little autonomy he had over his life when he started pulling the trigger on the Glock. At this point, he's a prisoner under arrest for murder awaiting trial. His mental status is affecting the speed and effectiveness at which the proceeding can work.

What are his choices?

He can refuse medication and continue being bat shit insane out of his right mind and plagued with an illness I hope and pray none of us will ever understand or experience.

He can accept medications... and allow the evidence against him to be brought to trail and participate as a semi-autonomous person in his own defense.

If he chooses, as he has so far, to refuse medications to control his illness he leaves himself and those who must prosecute and defend him little choice.

He's a special class of persons, an At Risk person, incapable of making competent decisions for himself. So, the state is forced to make decisions on his behalf. The state has to assume that he wishes to control his illness to participate in his defense and to do that his illness must be controlled so that he can begin to understand the nature of the charges being brought against him.

Does he understand what he's done? Maybe. I don't know. The only person that really knows is Jared himself. And unless he can be brought into some semblance of sanity even he himself may not know exactly what he's done and what the ramifications and consequences of his actions are.

Is there anyone who doubts that he's mentally incompetent to stand trial for what he's done without proper medication to control his illness?

Further complicating the situation are conflicting state laws regarding forced medication of` mentally unstable prisoners. Arizona wants it their way. And while he's housed in Missouri, he falls under Missouri law for medicating prisoners which are substantially different from Arizona's laws.

And be sure, his defense attorneys are very busy making sure that none of his Constitutional rights or human rights are abrogated accidentally or intentionally by anyone at any point in the proceedings!

The big question is how to judge and establish his ability to understand the charges being brought against him.

Jared is in a real tough spot. The federal government wants to bring in the death penalty for killing the judge. Arizona wants to bring in its own death penalty for murder. Did Jared intend to kill the judge or was the judge simply in the way when he was trying to kill Representative Giffords?

Jared is facing the death penalty in either case but there has to a decision about whether or not the feds or Arizona are going to proceed with the prosecution. Until Jared is able to explain his intentions or a competent legal authority can discern his motivations for his actions... Jared will likely be force medicated while he's in Arizona while further legal issues regarding the physical location of his prison are worked out.

Will the feds or Arizona state impose the death penalty on a mentally incompetent adult? We'll see.


First, he's under Federal custody IIRC at the Federal prison hospital in Springfield. Missouri laws probably don't apply.

Second, I think there's a good chance this guy will never be tried. IMHO he'll be locked up permanently in one of the .gov boobyhatches or else some sort of plea bargain involving life in a prison mental hospital.

Link Posted: 10/2/2011 8:49:09 PM EST
TEOTWAWKI
Top Top