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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/2/2002 3:31:56 PM EST
This is a serious question. For any of you that fly in police helicopters, do you think a police helo should be equipped with a SAW? And if so what type, FN Minimi or equivalent? And what type of SMGs would you prefer to have? I'd like to know what scenarios you can imagine where a SAW would be necessary. Our company is looking at marketing a helicopter for Leo use specifically and would like to offer a complete package including arms. I can envision several scenarios requiring a SAW but I'm not a leo. I'd like your thoughts, keeping in mind that most department heads would never go for a SAW equipped helicopter, but it's a different world now. Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 3:34:01 PM EST
are you FUCKING INSANE? how about a good scoped semi auto, i don't think target area saturation is the real goal in law enforcement.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 3:41:46 PM EST
“I can envision several scenarios requiring a SAW .........” Care to share those scenarios? Mike
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:16:13 PM EST
Easy guys, that's why I asked. As far as scenarios, providing cover for a special response force boarding a ship that has terrorists coming into a port. I know that's the primary responsibility of the Coast Guard, but if they aren't close enough.... Another would be a tanker truck full of fuel flying down a highway with good intel that it's going to crash into a school. And you have no conventional way of stopping it and you have managed to clear traffic. I'm not trying to start a flame war. Again, that's why I asked. Hell, the SWAT team here has a tank with an M60 on it. I assume they have a reason. Another would be heavily armed drug smugglers that have lightly armed officers pinned down in the middle of the desert. The smugglers have AKs, and the officers have 9mm handguns. If your in an aircraft, avoiding fire I doubt your scoped weapon would be very effective while your pilot evades. I could go on, but I am NOT a leo. I just want to know if it may be a viable option. So far it's 2 who think I'm fucking insane. Fair enough. But that's why I asked.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:27:45 PM EST
SAW? eh,....no!
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:47:48 PM EST
hey, i've got idea. how about mortars?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:52:43 PM EST
So far it looks like a very bad idea from your standpoint. Considering a SAW would take the place of an officer both in weight and size that's a good thing. The reason this came up is it was an option requested by a single agency. I came here to ask folks who are out there.I didn't think it was a crazy request, but I wanted to ask you all here. By the way, are all or any of you serving in aerial units? I'd like to know what you would want as far as arms to have available on board. Again, not trying to raise your blood pressure, just trying to find out what you would want.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:54:12 PM EST
“So far it's 2 who think I'm f**king insane” Not so. I don’t think you’re insane. Maybe misguided, but not insane. I just wanted to see your scenarios before I responded. I find the concept scary, but then I’m old school, having retired 10 years ago. I’ll post my thoughts once they are organized. Mike
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:54:27 PM EST
not currently, but yes, i have, and my best suggestion would be a scoped precision semi auto.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 4:58:36 PM EST
If I recall, police helos can't be "equipped" with weapons (other than what the onboard personnel are carrying as duty weapons). I could be wrong...
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:01:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By 58sniper: If I recall, police helos can't be "equipped" with weapons (other than what the onboard personnel are carrying as duty weapons). I could be wrong...
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no, that's about right. weapons can't be "mounted" or a permanent part of the aircraft, but they can be carried on board. i say a SEMI auto scoped rifle, because if you think hitting a stationary target is hard, try doing it from a helo.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:03:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By flashman: “So far it's 2 who think I'm f**king insane” Not so. I don’t think you’re insane. Maybe misguided, but not insane. I just wanted to see your scenarios before I responded. I find the concept scary, but then I’m old school, having retired 10 years ago. I’ll post my thoughts once they are organized. Mike
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Thanks Mike, I was getting ready to delete the post. I'm going to be at the Aerial Law Enforcement Convention this month with the Helicopter manufacturer rep. They are serious about selling the helicopter with substantial spares support and arms if requested subject to ATF approval. This is a very good package and would save departments a lot of money in operational cost. They are just trying to be accommodating however misguided. I'll take the heat for that. I'm just trying to get solid information, not trolling to piss off a bunch of hard working cops.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 5:11:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By quietshoez: hey, i've got idea. how about mortars?
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how do you think the main rotors will react to mortars?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:25:05 PM EST
My LE aviation experience is limited to one "fly-along" with a major agency (and it was one the coolest things I have done in recent memory. I do not think that arming a helicopter with a SAW or any other crew-served weapon would have any real utility. LE tactical operations are far more controlled than military ones; every single round must be accounted for and even tight, well-aimed bursts from a door gun would have too much of a tendency to scatter and get lost. You also would have difficulty articulating to a prosecutor or the Grand Jury how the target posed a threat to you, and how you were able to discriminate between your target and "innocent" activity in the area. As far as crew-served weapons being mounted on a ground vehicle, that is a different matter, dealing specifically with barricaded active threats, and the need for a barricade penetrating weapon, which the 5.56mm SAW does not address.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 6:33:30 PM EST
Thanks Natez. We have been serving the military market for years. This is our first try at the LEO market and you make some great points. We were only aproached today to go with the factory rep to the convention and I don't have a lot of time to do my homework. I'd rather take a good ass burning here on the site than in person while trying to help sell and equip helicopters. If you email me privately I'll send you to my site that shows some of the work we've done for both US and Foreign Military helos. There are some cool pics including helicopters with SAWs.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 8:24:56 PM EST
Rumor has it the NYPD has some sort of Gunship since 09/11/01, I would love to see it if that is true. Hell, we're a big enough dept.!
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 10:22:55 PM EST
az_larry, Guns on aircraft are area weapons. Strafing with fixed forward firing or flexible guns is shooting hundreds of rounds for hits in the tens if you're good. There is no precision involved. You must fire on the move or you become an easy target. Accurately firing from a flex mount on a moving helicopter is difficult. Firing a hand-held weapon from one is next to impossible. Then there's the problem with 5.56mm. It's crap beyond 150 yards on unprotected targets and penetration of cover sucks. Stepping up to 7.62mm in the form of M60s, M240s or GAU-2A/B miniguns gives you more reach and cover penetration, but you still have the problem of the need to limit colateral damage in law enforcement. It's an idea best dropped.
Link Posted: 7/3/2002 5:24:22 AM EST
Dave, it is dropped. We're keeping the option for our military customers and will not even bring it up for leos. We will still offer aircrew weapons with the ship.
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