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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/16/2004 7:45:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 8:17:49 PM EST by ARDOC]
This flu shot thing is getting out of control. These old folks think they are going to die if they dont get it. Its amazing what kind of media coverage they are getting. These are vaccines that these folks probably didnt get in years before but they must have it now because they think they will die if they dont. A lot of the times the wrong strain is used and the vaccine is useless anyway.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 7:47:15 PM EST
The news media is hyping this hoping to blame Bush if the flu pandemic breaks out.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 7:53:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 7:54:39 PM EST by Backstop]

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
A lot of the times the wrong stain is used and the vaccine is useless anyway.


May I suggest an edit? strain
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 7:54:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:
The news media is hyping this hoping to blame Bush if the flu pandemic breaks out.




a big... YUP!

Already are.

Sad thing is, I think it will work.

-LS
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 7:57:14 PM EST
Yeah, it's pretty funny. I even saw a news report that people are bolting to Canada to get the shot. I've only taken one flu shot a couple of years ago and my body reacted as though it had the flu. Spent a week feeling shitty. And I've only had the flu 2 or 3 times prior to the shot.

Isn't the vaccine just a guess as to which flu strain will appear here? I'm sure there is some scientific study as to which strain appears in Asia or some crap like that.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 7:58:25 PM EST
Old farts fighting over a shot that makes you sick...WHAT THE FUCK, OVER???
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:01:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By MikeS369:
Isn't the vaccine just a guess as to which flu strain will appear here? I'm sure there is some scientific study as to which strain appears in Asia or some crap like that.


Yup, that's right, the CDC takes a SWAG in the spring at what they think the strains of flu is going to hit the USA. And they pass it out to the vaccine manufacturers. Sometimes they are wrong, and we get a vaccine that has very little protection.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:01:38 PM EST
... Trample the weak, hurdle the dead
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:02:58 PM EST
A test of sorts to see what kind of panic develops. Perhaps there really isn't any real threat but use the media to create a perceived threat and follow the spread of panic. Useful data for a larger more insidious threat.

foil helmets anyone?

Railgun....
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:14:25 PM EST
Don't mean to hijack this thread but didn't last years flu season turn out to be an average season? Started off with a ban though.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:22:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 8:23:05 PM EST by Fenian]
And here's another thought...why the fu** should the OLD FARTS who are gonna die in a year or two anyway get first crack at the vaccine? I think they should give it to all of us middle aged types, who still have a few good years left in us
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:24:04 PM EST
Thats the thing, the flu outbreaks were not bad. Perhaps it will get worse if people are not vaccinated but, it is a fact that they dont know the exact strain until it shows up. There are several wild strains that can show up at any time. Its a crap shoot. But the media has hyped up the shortage so much these geezers are dying trying to get it.

This is a prelude to whats to come when health care becomes a premium. The old babyboomers are going to suck all the medicines dry and the outcry will be interesting to see.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:27:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
... Trample the weak, hurdle the dead



That has a sig line written all over it....
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:37:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 8:38:13 PM EST by Backstop]
I will say one thing though - the real, honest to goodness flu will kick your ass - it did mine. Guess it was 2000, started feeling bad at school (late evening), got home and fell asleep on the couch, woke up in the a.m. and my entire body hurt so fucking bad. Soon to be ex-wife and I weren't talking, so I drove my self to BAMC (Ft Sam) ER and I had a 103.7 fever - fever stayed above 102 for three days. They called me back three days later and told me that I had "group A" - crap can't remember the rest - and they wanted to admit me. I said "no". Flu bug allowed pneumonia to attack me. They collected a ton of info from me for the CDC's records.

Never had it since then and never before.

I'd say it rated right up there with Giardia and Crypto.

Edited for grammar.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:39:24 PM EST
Oh, and my two cents...

There are two types of flu- influenza A and influenza B. Influenza B does not make big mutations and is common in humans. It is easier to figure out what the B types will do from year to year.

It is the influenza A that will get all the geezers. It is found in animals like pigs and ducks. A pig strain and a duck strain can combine to form a strain that is nothing like any other flu strain seen by humans. Some of you may recall the "asian flu" you hear about every few years. That is what they are referring to and if we get a new strain out of Asia this year or any year, it will clean out some nursing homes.

The reason these new strains come out of Asia is because in rural areas people still live amongst the ducks and the pigs so all the players are there for a completely new strain to get passed to humans.

Simplified explanation, but this is the one to look out for. And the flu vaccine makes me feel like I have the flu, too. And yes, they are guessing at what strains they think will be prevalent.

-Juice Out
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:45:59 PM EST
Vaccines for things like the flu will be our downfall. Every time they come up iwth a vaccine for a strain, a new strain develops. Every new strain is worse than the last. Eventually you're going to wind up with a strain that can't be vaccinated, and is a real killer.

All of this bullshit makes you wonder what we did years ago before the vacines.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:48:03 PM EST
It's all Bush's fault..........
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:51:19 PM EST
The absolute worse case of flu I ever had was in late 1999 – and I had a flu shot that year!!

That said, I haven’t forgotten how bad it was (I was incredibly sick for almost three weeks). I never want to go through that again.

I got a flu shot on October 1st, when they first started giving them around here (and before the panic started). It may not guarantee anything, but it can’t hurt.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:52:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
Vaccines for things like the flu will be our downfall. Every time they come up with a vaccine for a strain, a new strain develops. Every new strain is worse than the last. Eventually you're going to wind up with a strain that can't be vaccinated, and is a real killer.

All of this bullshit makes you wonder what we did years ago before the vacines.



... I've always felt this way too. Somewhat analogous to soccer moms pumping antibiotics into their kids every time they have a sniffle.

"What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Stronger"
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 8:57:33 PM EST
Remember the year they gave two flu shots to the AD military guys? I got mine on 28 Oct 76. They gave us Swine Flu and Hong Kong flu. Tons of people got sicker than dogs - didn't bother me at all. AFAIK, they never again gave us two strains.

(Yes, I have my orignal shot record)
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:04:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By norman74:
Vaccines for things like the flu will be our downfall. Every time they come up with a vaccine for a strain, a new strain develops. Every new strain is worse than the last. Eventually you're going to wind up with a strain that can't be vaccinated, and is a real killer.

All of this bullshit makes you wonder what we did years ago before the vacines.



... I've always felt this way too. Somewhat analogous to soccer moms pumping antibiotics into their kids every time they have a sniffle.

"What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Stronger"



Years ago we didn't have as much international travel and foreigners dropping bugs all over us.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:21:06 PM EST
More from the greedy geezers who think the govt owes them free everything.

Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:27:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
Vaccines for things like the flu will be our downfall. Every time they come up iwth a vaccine for a strain, a new strain develops. Every new strain is worse than the last. Eventually you're going to wind up with a strain that can't be vaccinated, and is a real killer.

All of this bullshit makes you wonder what we did years ago before the vacines.




Well, in 1918 people mostly died


I'm not sure the vaccines are necessarily making the virus mutate anymore than it would be on its own.

I know bacterial infections are becoming more and more resistant to various antibiotics, and there are some really mean ones that we've almost run out of antibiotics for (and then we'll really be screwed). Clearly the over-use of antibiotics has created much stronger and more drug-resistant strains fo bacteria - but I'm not SURE that you get stronger and more resistant virii becuase of the use of vaccines.

Maybe someone else knows ... someone always does on arfcom!
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:27:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 9:31:39 PM EST by parshooter]


The rest of the story, per Rush on the 14th. :

Clintons Ruined Vaccine Industry

October 14, 2004

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT

Last night, ladies and gentlemen, ( transcript | video ) the president of the United States was asked about flu vaccine and what's the problem, how come we have a shortage, and he gave an answer that was half complete and, frankly, I was sitting on the edge of the chair when I saw this because I thought, "Uh-oh, with one pitch here Kerry has a chance, with one swing, to hit two grand slams with one swing," and he missed it. He missed it. Everybody talks about what a great debater Kerry is, but he got a chance to respond to Bush's answer on the shortage of flu vaccines. Stop and think of this: President of the United States said to America last night: If you're young or a child, don't get a flu shot. That is a sitting duck, I'm sorry, for John Kerry.

"This is what it's come to in America," he could have said. "We're the richest country in the world, got the greatest health care system in the world and the President of the United States has to tell you not to take a flu shot? Just take the risk?" He didn't say it. You know what he did? He launched into some talking points about health care. What is all this talk about him being a great debater? This is one of the greatest missed opportunities in this whole series of three debates. However, what I want to talk to you about is this flu shortage, and I want you to know why it exists, the flu vaccine shortage. There's an editorial in the Wall Street Journal today, and after I read the first two paragraphs, the old memory lights went on there, and the little gray cells, and I said, "Oh, yeah. Bam! I had forgotten about this."

You know, there is a debate versus reality is what you could say this was last night. Half the vaccine we need, serious shortage of flu shots, half the vaccine we need was lost. It was contaminated, had to throw it down the drain. A British pharmaceutical plant goofed up, made a mistake, and so we were importing it from this company in Britain, and it's no good. We can't use it. Now, this is bad news, this is horrible news to our young and old could save our health delivery system from liberal ideas that sound good but don't work. This instance, this reality, ironically, that we are short of a flu vaccine is the best medicine that we could get right now for fixing this problem and to illustrate how our health delivery system in the hands of liberals sounds great but doesn't work. Do you remember something called the Clinton Government Vaccine Buying Program?


It was sold to us as a way to get prices down and get more children vaccinated and, of course, to keep the evil drug companies from making a profit. The Wall Street Journal says today, "Companies that decided to run these regulatory traps also know that they'll be doing so for very little reward. Before her big health care reform crashed and burned in '94, Hillary Rodham Rodham managed to get Congress to pass a government vaccine buying program for children. Her sales pitch was free vaccines for all kids and higher immunization rates. If we would give this stuff away, she said, more children would be immunized." Oh, goody, wonderful, wonderful. Thus, as a result of Hillary's plan, the government now purchases about 60% of all pediatric vaccines, forcing huge discounts and imposing price caps. The manufacturers were told, ''You can only make so much profit, and you're gonna make this amount, and we're gonna give it away.''

What all this did was screw up the whole private sector mechanism of manufacturing and distributing vaccines. In 2001, the private sector cost of immunizing children with the 20 recommended doses of vaccines was $600 per child. The government price was just $400 per child, with the vaccine makers swallowing the difference. What has this achieved? Vaccination rates for two-year-olds have stagnated at about 74% for the past several years while adult rates are significantly lower, and with the profit margin squeeze to practically zero, some manufacturers have simply said, "We're not making the stuff anymore. It doesn't make sense. We've got this government program that tells us the maximum we can charge, regardless what it costs to make, we're going to be threatened with lawsuits the first time somebody gets sick for whatever vaccine. Screw it!"

And that's why American companies are out of the business and why we have to import vaccines from Great Britain, a combination of Hillary's plan that put a cap on profits, put a cap on prices, and nothing to do with the manufacture price. You combine that with the fact that these manufacturers are subject to constant lawsuits and they said, "Screw it. We're not going to make the stuff anymore," and that's why there is a shortage. This can be traced back to Hillary Clinton's great sounding, compassionate idea, to make sure that every child had a flu shot and every child had a vaccination against various childhood diseases. Well, the fact is only 74% of kids do because there's not enough vaccine. This is not the first real shortage, but because American manufacturers have thrown up their hands and said, "It makes no sense. We are in business, and we don't give things away, and we're certainly not going to take a loss on this."

So they just simply got out of the business. In addition to that, one of the companies that remained and stayed in business was a company called Chiron. They're being sued left and right over financial problems that have nothing to do with the quality of their vaccine. I'm not going to detail what those problems are because it's not relevant, but they're being targeted now. So that's another manufacturer that has put up their hands and said, "Whoa, it isn't worth all this," and so that's why we have to import from Britain, and, lo and behold, they had a company that ended up with their flu vaccines contaminated. Half the supply had to be dumped and this is where we are. We have "outsourced" flu vaccines, essentially, to use a John Kerry word because of Mrs. Clinton's great-sounding program -- remember the name -- the government vaccine buying program.


The vaccine rate did not increase. It drove our vaccine manufacturers out of the business of manufacturing vaccines. The squeeze on profits sounded good to a lot of people because everybody knows that pharmaceutical companies make obscene profits and the money goes to Halliburton and Cheney, but they got out of business rather than sounding good. The fear of crippling lawsuits -- not the lawsuits themselves, just the fear -- the fear of lawsuits drove vaccine makers out of business. The complications of overregulation drove vaccine makers out of business and now John Kerry says, "Where's the vaccine?" Well, don't ask me, folks, ask the liberals! Ask Hillary Clinton! Ask Bill Clinton. They told us, they told themselves, that price caps and centralized buying would make things better. What we end up with is a vaccine mess, but liberals don't apologize. They repeat their mistakes again and again.

Now John Kerry wants price caps and centralized buying prescription drugs and sooner or later on all of health care, and what's even worse, the same people who were taken in by the vaccine pipe dream are now cheering this prescription drug pipe dream. If you buy it, a pox on your face! I shouldn't say that. Just a little attempt at humor, but here's the way to look at this, and I'm using the word "greedy" here advisedly, to make a point. One greedy drug manufacturer with one "greedy drug" has saved more lives than all the liberal politicians combined, because liberal politicians when they get their hands on the health care system or any element of it, that business ends up being damaged to the point that the people in it throw up their hands and quit because there's no profit in it. There's only the fear of lawsuits, and more hassle than it is worth. The Clintons were notorious for two tactics: They took credit for anything good; they made a mountain out of the slightest little molehill. One of the tiniest little problems were called "crises" which demanded massive government action and that's how this vaccine business got started.

"A small number of kids didn't get vaccines because they could not afford." Hillary said, "That's just not right." Bammo! Now half the country has to not take a flu shot because of Hillary Clinton. Have you, by the way, why neither Bill nor Hillary ever mentioned or took credit for this government vaccine buying program? They're all about writing their legacy out there. The Clintons are trying to take credit for everybody that happened in the nineties that was good. Why don't we hear about this government vaccine buying program, hmm? Well, thanks to the Wall Street Journal editorial today called Infection Politics, I now know why. The plan sounded good enough to those who don't understand the real world. Government buys vaccines in bulk; government negotiates lowers prices -- read that: a cap on profits -- and the lower prices will lead to more vaccinations. Why don't the Clintons ever mention it? Why don't they want kudos for their plan? Because it didn't work, it did no good, and as we know now, it's caused a lot of harm.
END TRANSCRIPT
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:28:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By longshot_va:

Originally Posted By warlord:
The news media is hyping this hoping to blame Bush if the flu pandemic breaks out.




a big... YUP!

Already are.

Sad thing is, I think it will work.

-LS




Don't think the flu will be that bad tis year - apparently the main strains are pretty close to last year's, so there shouldn't be any bad 1918-style pandemic this year.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:37:21 PM EST
DK and WW are right, antibiotics are far worse in the long run than vaccines. That has become the cure-all for most physicians. They don't have to take the time to figure out what's actually wrong with you, they just give you the antibiotics 'cause it'll kill most anything.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:37:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/16/2004 9:39:28 PM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By parshooter:


The rest of the story, per Rush on the 14th. :

....






There are actually a number of inaccuracies in that story - that someone like me, who is not an expert at all, can easily spot.


First of all, the company manufacturing the vaccines was AMERICAN - who operated a plant in Britain. It was not a British company, but I believe British authorities shut down their production because it was contaminated and the vaccines were unusable.

Ironically, it was CHIRON - whom Rush mentiones later in the article - who owns this plant, and who FUCKED UP the manufacturing process so that we don't have any vaccines. And he has the gall to say that we have to import from Britain because poor 'ol Chiron is being treated badly??? No Chiron GOT a sweet deal from the government, with guaranteed sales (which is really important when manufacturing vaccines, for reasons explained below) and then fucked it up. And Rush is trying to make it sound like they're some victim??


It actually DOES make a lot of sense for government to get invovled in vaccine production, on a cost-plus basis (or some similar contract) since vaccine production is generally TOO RISKY for private-sector companies. A company WILL manufacture flu vaccines for the government if the government places an order for, say 80 million vaccines, but they will NOT want to make 80 million vaccines to sell themselves if the government were not involved. The reason is that it is a very risky business, with a very long production process. It takes a very long time to manufacture flu vaccines, which means you need to estimate demand long before you know what it will be - and it can fluctuate WILDLY from year to year. if you manufacture 80 flu million vaccines, but only 30 million people want to be vaccinated that year, you will go bankrupt, because you have so much money and opportunity cost tied up in the vaccines, and they cannot be used for anything else, and cannot be store and used the next year.


Whatever
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:55:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
DK and WW are right, antibiotics are far worse in the long run than vaccines. That has become the cure-all for most physicians. They don't have to take the time to figure out what's actually wrong with you, they just give you the antibiotics 'cause it'll kill most anything.



And the funny thing about that is a lot of people who come into the doc. for feeling shitty with a runny nose, etc. have a VIRAL infection, which antibiotics do absolutely nothing for (unless you are a geeze and it can help prevent pneumonia). The majority of physicians know that giving these people antibiotics won't do a damn thing to help them get better and can cause antibiotic resistance but the patient doesn't understand that no matter how many times you try to tell them. Most people have the attitude that if you take the time, money and energy to go to the doctor, and he tells you to wait it out and you will be fine, you will be pised because he didn't do his job. So the doc has to write you a prescription for antibiotics or else all his patients are going to think he didn't do shit to help them and they won't come back. And so the perpetuation continues...

Hell, I worked with an old dude who gives everyone a shot of rocephin (strong antibiotic) in the ass when they feel bad because a shot lets you know its working. He also gave people shots of "medicine" that was actually saline and "strong red pills" that were actually baking soda coated with FD&C Red No. 5 but that's a different story entirely....

Welcome to Alabama Healthcare
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 9:57:10 PM EST
bah....screw teh flu shot. every time i've gotten one i've felt crappy from teh shot for about a week, and got knocked on my ass by the flu for at least two weeks later taht year (usually over christmas).


when I don't get the flu shot, I don't get the flu.....

I'll let the geezers and the kiddies fight this one out while I sit on the sidelines drinking beer and munching popcorn
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:05:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
It actually DOES make a lot of sense for government to get invovled in vaccine production, ...



"Production", Yes, maybe.

But legislating what private companies may charge for their product? No. That's what I took to be his main point.

You raise some interesting questions, but it's too late now for my feeble brain to seriously ponder them. Maybe tomorrow, or actually later today.


Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:26:41 PM EST
I've never had a flu shot, haven't ever been really sick since I was 5 or so. So far I've found that if I'm feeling a little under the weather, an 18 hour nap seems to take care of it. Maybe it was all those 90 hour weeks I used to work?

Say YES to population control. Say NO to flu vaccines!
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:32:08 PM EST
Doesn't exactly instill confidence in the govts ability to respond to other threats such as small pox.
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:51:18 PM EST
Ahh, if we only had a communist social health care system this wouldn't be an issue
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:53:20 PM EST
I don't get a flu shot anyways, someone else can have mine
_______________
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HISTORY SUCKS
Link Posted: 10/16/2004 10:53:21 PM EST


I've only taken the flu shot once. It made me get sick with the flu for about six years after taking it. Prior to flu shot, I would only get a 24 hour flu bug or no flu virus at all. Last year I didn't even get a cold. I'll never get a flu shot again.
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