Posted: 4/19/2018 11:43:05 AM EDT
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Well, that didn't work out quite the way they planned.
...Universal basic income is a modern welfare scheme through which citizens are granted a consistent, livable income from the government, without condition. Finland adopted its program in 2017, giving 2000 randomly selected, unemployed citizens about $670 each month for two years. That money is not taxed by the government.
While the program gained global notoriety as economies across the globe grapple with changing labor force trends, members of Finland’s welfare bureau have reportedly said the country’s government will not continue with the program in its current form. ”Right now, the government is making changes that are taking the system further away from a basic income,” a welfare researcher told the Swedish daily Svenska Dagbladet, as reported by Business Insider... |
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I would like to see what the results were. The whole idea behind it is that people will use the money to go back to school and acquire better job skills, move out of depressed communities to where jobs are or become entrepreneurs. Of course they can just as easily slack off and do nothing all day. |
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I would like to see what the results were. The whole idea behind it is that people will use the money to go back to school and acquire better job skills, move out of depressed communities to where jobs are or become entrepreneurs. Of course they can just as easily slack off and do nothing all day. You are going to need a sample size a hell of a lot bigger than 2000 before you find a single person that is going to use "free money" responsibly little alone go back to/finish more education. |
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I would like to see what the results were. The whole idea behind it is that people will use the money to go back to school and acquire better job skills, move out of depressed communities to where jobs are or become entrepreneurs. Of course they can just as easily slack off and do nothing all day. |
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Interesting that it's such a small sample size, I wonder why they decided it wasn't worth pursuing? |
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I would like to see what the results were. The whole idea behind it is that people will use the money to go back to school and acquire better job skills, move out of depressed communities to where jobs are or become entrepreneurs. Of course they can just as easily slack off and do nothing all day. Either way, it IS just another form of welfare and if truly "universally" implemented runs a serious risk of wrecking your currency. If implemented such that everyone receives $X and those who make more than that have it taxed away from them, successful people and businesses will leave. |
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That UBI didn't change the load on the social welfare system a cent. The only hope for $670 per month would be in a subsistence existence with a household packed full of recipients to share the money, i.e., communes.
Communes are useful. They're almost as good as camps with razor wire fences, they concentrate the the commies so they are easy to locate. |
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Sounds like they learned that it isn't the panacea that they were hoping for... I'm gonna guess that the recipients blew all their money on booze and hookers, or whatever the unemployed of Finland are into. |
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This guy don't need no stinkin UBI.  https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/136311/pekka-rinne-2017-1412-519670.JPG He dont need no wall either. He IS the wall. |
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Liberals simply are unable to comprehend/accept basic economic principles because those principles are fundamental contradictions to the foundational tenants of their neo-Marxist/liberal ideological beliefs. You would have better luck convincing an atheist to believe in God than getting a neo-Marxist/liberal to understand basic economics. Quoted:
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Sounds like they learned that it isn't the panacea that they were hoping for... I'm gonna guess that the recipients blew all their money on booze and hookers, or whatever the unemployed of Finland are into. 
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I would like to see what the results were. The whole idea behind it is that people will use the money to go back to school and acquire better job skills, move out of depressed communities to where jobs are or become entrepreneurs. Of course they can just as easily slack off and do nothing all day. |
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If the results were a rousing success, or even achieved bare minimum goals, you can rest assured the left would be running with it on every morning talk show, NPR, and it would be front page of every periodical and talking point of every Democrat politician. The fact that they are quietly discontinuing the program tells you everything you need to know about the results. Quoted:
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I would like to see what the results were. The whole idea behind it is that people will use the money to go back to school and acquire better job skills, move out of depressed communities to where jobs are or become entrepreneurs. Of course they can just as easily slack off and do nothing all day. It's the problem I've always had with the Star Trek universe, which is nominally Marxist. Everyone's needs are met thanks to the replicator so everyone basically has unlimited free time to pursue science and the arts. But they completely ignore the reality that in the same situation, a huge percentage of the population would just sit on ass instead. |
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Sounds like they learned that it isn't the panacea that they were hoping for... I'm gonna guess that the recipients blew all their money on booze and hookers, or whatever the unemployed of Finland are into. |
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That UBI didn't change the load on the social welfare system a cent. The only hope for $670 per month would be in a subsistence existence with a household packed full of recipients to share the money, i.e., communes. Communes are useful. They're almost as good as camps with razor wire fences, they concentrate the the commies so they are easy to locate. You would see at least 4-6 prime age males living in the same flat. I went to Finnish language school in Helsinki with a lot of these types, including Middle Easterners, South Americans, and Russians. Most have come from other European states where their welfare laws were more strict, like requiring an address before you can receive any subsistence income from local social services offices (staffed by females almost exclusively). Many of them left France for Sweden, then when Sweden denied their requests for assistance, their buddies told them that the Finns are pushovers, don't even require that you have an address, will hand you 400 Euros on the spot every month. Once they saw what the Finnish winter is (8-9 months), and how cold the culture is to human interaction, they would immediately get depressed and hate every day of their lives, looking for some new watering hole welfare state to dish out money for free. A lot of fat Finnish girls with no real dating prospects would latch onto these guys, and plug them into an economic support base, since a lot of them work. The Africans and ME males that are younger would sire a few kids with them, then bail for France again, or some other country with warmth. The older guys realized how good they have it, settle down, and either find work or take more Finnish lessons and try to become at least barely literate. |
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And people here think it will work here. ?? Think Star Trek basically. The biggest job in the universe is being part of exploration fleets. Everything else is pretty much taken care of. Currently, it won't work at all. |
| This was done,and cancelled,because the trial wanted to see how it affected unemployment. There was a theory that many weren't seeking employment because minimal employment would lead to them losing social benefits and this was to get people working...somehow. |
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Quoted: Eventually it will be the norm. But not until the exact point when we can do the vast majority of all work with AI. Once that happens it will take very few people to produce enough food and resources for all the other people. Think Star Trek basically. The biggest job in the universe is being part of exploration fleets. Everything else is pretty much taken care of. Currently, it won't work at all. |
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And people here think it will work here. ?? Here is the real problem western nations are facing, and it's something neo-Marxists/liberals reject and refuse to accept - all people aren't created equal. Not everyone has what it takes to achieve the same outcomes. Not everyone is equally as intelligent, motivated, driven, or physically capable. In fact, people are virtually unequal in all attributes. It's what makes us individuals, not sheep. If you accept this then what you also must accept is that not everyone is college material, not everyone is destined for the CEO's office, and some people won't amount to much in life. |
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Quoted: Eventually it will be the norm. But not until the exact point when we can do the vast majority of all work with AI. Once that happens it will take very few people to produce enough food and resources for all the other people. Think Star Trek basically. The biggest job in the universe is being part of exploration fleets. Everything else is pretty much taken care of. Currently, it won't work at all. |
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As much as I like Trek I see no reason that all the non-productive people should just be taken care of. They will always feel they deserve more, they will complain about the wealth gap between themselves and those who strive for a better life and they will become an ever-expanding social problem. Quoted:
Quoted: Eventually it will be the norm. But not until the exact point when we can do the vast majority of all work with AI. Once that happens it will take very few people to produce enough food and resources for all the other people. Think Star Trek basically. The biggest job in the universe is being part of exploration fleets. Everything else is pretty much taken care of. Currently, it won't work at all. This is assuming we can get through the next paradigm shift about how money and the economy will change without destroying ourselves. If we can get past that great filter of everyone killing off everyone else is a giant war, things will be very very different, and we will either be sending out huge ships to explore and colonize, or working on becoming completely sentient, or maybe both. Once resources are no longer scarce, or hard to distribute, most of the population won't have to work, so UBI for being a member of the species makes sense. With our current economic model though, it doesn't work out since it will discourage a lot of people from going out and contributing. I would back it on two conditions. Everyone gets it, and all other forms of welfare are cut, and I mean all of them. I think the math would either even out, or come slightly ahead in favor of the UBI in that case. Not only on money paid out, but on administrative costs, just once department to deal with on a federal level vs multiple departments over the whole country would probably end up saving a lot of money just in staffing. |
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That's what I saw happening with immigrants from Africa. You would see at least 4-6 prime age males living in the same flat. I went to Finnish language school in Helsinki with a lot of these types, including Middle Easterners, South Americans, and Russians. Most have come from other European states where their welfare laws were more strict, like requiring an address before you can receive any subsistence income from local social services offices (staffed by females almost exclusively). Many of them left France for Sweden, then when Sweden denied their requests for assistance, their buddies told them that the Finns are pushovers, don't even require that you have an address, will hand you 400 Euros on the spot every month. Once they saw what the Finnish winter is (8-9 months), and how cold the culture is to human interaction, they would immediately get depressed and hate every day of their lives, looking for some new watering hole welfare state to dish out money for free. A lot of fat Finnish girls with no real dating prospects would latch onto these guys, and plug them into an economic support base, since a lot of them work. The Africans and ME males that are younger would sire a few kids with them, then bail for France again, or some other country with warmth. The older guys realized how good they have it, settle down, and either find work or take more Finnish lessons and try to become at least barely literate. Quoted:
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That UBI didn't change the load on the social welfare system a cent. The only hope for $670 per month would be in a subsistence existence with a household packed full of recipients to share the money, i.e., communes. Communes are useful. They're almost as good as camps with razor wire fences, they concentrate the the commies so they are easy to locate. You would see at least 4-6 prime age males living in the same flat. I went to Finnish language school in Helsinki with a lot of these types, including Middle Easterners, South Americans, and Russians. Most have come from other European states where their welfare laws were more strict, like requiring an address before you can receive any subsistence income from local social services offices (staffed by females almost exclusively). Many of them left France for Sweden, then when Sweden denied their requests for assistance, their buddies told them that the Finns are pushovers, don't even require that you have an address, will hand you 400 Euros on the spot every month. Once they saw what the Finnish winter is (8-9 months), and how cold the culture is to human interaction, they would immediately get depressed and hate every day of their lives, looking for some new watering hole welfare state to dish out money for free. A lot of fat Finnish girls with no real dating prospects would latch onto these guys, and plug them into an economic support base, since a lot of them work. The Africans and ME males that are younger would sire a few kids with them, then bail for France again, or some other country with warmth. The older guys realized how good they have it, settle down, and either find work or take more Finnish lessons and try to become at least barely literate. Kharn |
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Quoted: The point is that eventually we will be so productive with automation that many people won't have much to do. At that point we could very well be outfitting giant multi-generational seeder ships to send out into space, so that's something, but lots of people will be able to pretty much just do whatever they want, and we won't have a need for them to contribute. This is assuming we can get through the next paradigm shift about how money and the economy will change without destroying ourselves. If we can get past that great filter of everyone killing off everyone else is a giant war, things will be very very different, and we will either be sending out huge ships to explore and colonize, or working on becoming completely sentient, or maybe both. Once resources are no longer scarce, or hard to distribute, most of the population won't have to work, so UBI for being a member of the species makes sense. With our current economic model though, it doesn't work out since it will discourage a lot of people from going out and contributing. I would back it on two conditions. Everyone gets it, and all other forms of welfare are cut, and I mean all of them. I think the math would either even out, or come slightly ahead in favor of the UBI in that case. Not only on money paid out, but on administrative costs, just once department to deal with on a federal level vs multiple departments over the whole country would probably end up saving a lot of money just in staffing. |
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Reminds me of the do gooder who made the minimum wage as his company something like $70k/year and within two years the company was failing as all his important people were leaving to work for a place that didn't pay them the same as the janitor. |
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Quoted: LOL You are going to need a sample size a hell of a lot bigger than 2000 before you find a single person that is going to use "free money" responsibly little alone go back to/finish more education. |
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I bet you just need a small sample of the right portion of the population. If you sample the right portion of population they're going to take that 670 a month and turn it into $6,700 overtime or $67,000 overtime. You sample a different portion of the population and they're going to turn that $670 into beer and cigarettes. Of course that first population is already doing it with their money so they don't need a universal basic income Quoted:
Quoted: LOL You are going to need a sample size a hell of a lot bigger than 2000 before you find a single person that is going to use "free money" responsibly little alone go back to/finish more education. 
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Well, that didn't work out quite the way they planned. ...Universal basic income is a modern welfare scheme through which citizens are granted a consistent, livable income from the government, without condition. Finland adopted its program in 2017, giving 2000 randomly selected, unemployed citizens about $670 each month for two years. That money is not taxed by the government.
While the program gained global notoriety as economies across the globe grapple with changing labor force trends, members of Finland’s welfare bureau have reportedly said the country’s government will not continue with the program in its current form. ”Right now, the government is making changes that are taking the system further away from a basic income,” a welfare researcher told the Swedish daily Svenska Dagbladet, as reported by Business Insider... |
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Quoted: " The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money!" - Margaret Thatcher Sadly, there is a growing number of folks that are to stupid and or lazy to care... |
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How fat are we talking? 175 or 375lbs? Kharn Quoted:
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That UBI didn't change the load on the social welfare system a cent. The only hope for $670 per month would be in a subsistence existence with a household packed full of recipients to share the money, i.e., communes. Communes are useful. They're almost as good as camps with razor wire fences, they concentrate the the commies so they are easy to locate. You would see at least 4-6 prime age males living in the same flat. I went to Finnish language school in Helsinki with a lot of these types, including Middle Easterners, South Americans, and Russians. Most have come from other European states where their welfare laws were more strict, like requiring an address before you can receive any subsistence income from local social services offices (staffed by females almost exclusively). Many of them left France for Sweden, then when Sweden denied their requests for assistance, their buddies told them that the Finns are pushovers, don't even require that you have an address, will hand you 400 Euros on the spot every month. Once they saw what the Finnish winter is (8-9 months), and how cold the culture is to human interaction, they would immediately get depressed and hate every day of their lives, looking for some new watering hole welfare state to dish out money for free. A lot of fat Finnish girls with no real dating prospects would latch onto these guys, and plug them into an economic support base, since a lot of them work. The Africans and ME males that are younger would sire a few kids with them, then bail for France again, or some other country with warmth. The older guys realized how good they have it, settle down, and either find work or take more Finnish lessons and try to become at least barely literate. Kharn 375lbs for the 6 footers. 
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That's right, as the govt can not give to someone, unless they take from someone else... Sadly, there is a growing number of folks that are to stupid and or lazy to care... Quoted:
Quoted: " The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money!" - Margaret Thatcher Sadly, there is a growing number of folks that are to stupid and or lazy to care... |
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175lbs for the 5'2" girls 375lbs for the 6 footers. https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/strange-self-portrait-selfie-photographer-iiu-susiraja-fb.jpg Quoted:
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That UBI didn't change the load on the social welfare system a cent. The only hope for $670 per month would be in a subsistence existence with a household packed full of recipients to share the money, i.e., communes. Communes are useful. They're almost as good as camps with razor wire fences, they concentrate the the commies so they are easy to locate. You would see at least 4-6 prime age males living in the same flat. I went to Finnish language school in Helsinki with a lot of these types, including Middle Easterners, South Americans, and Russians. Most have come from other European states where their welfare laws were more strict, like requiring an address before you can receive any subsistence income from local social services offices (staffed by females almost exclusively). Many of them left France for Sweden, then when Sweden denied their requests for assistance, their buddies told them that the Finns are pushovers, don't even require that you have an address, will hand you 400 Euros on the spot every month. Once they saw what the Finnish winter is (8-9 months), and how cold the culture is to human interaction, they would immediately get depressed and hate every day of their lives, looking for some new watering hole welfare state to dish out money for free. A lot of fat Finnish girls with no real dating prospects would latch onto these guys, and plug them into an economic support base, since a lot of them work. The Africans and ME males that are younger would sire a few kids with them, then bail for France again, or some other country with warmth. The older guys realized how good they have it, settle down, and either find work or take more Finnish lessons and try to become at least barely literate. Kharn 375lbs for the 6 footers. https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/strange-self-portrait-selfie-photographer-iiu-susiraja-fb.jpg Kharn |
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