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Posted: 10/9/2004 4:40:35 PM EST
F-16's fire flares at two private planes
Updated: 10/09/2004 07:32:53 PM - Link (Video at news site)

People in Lake Elmo say they saw a military aircraft fire something at two private planes.

"We saw bright lights coming out of the fighter jet like it was being, like a small aircraft was being fired upon," Anne Gelbmann said.

A local pilot, who was flying one of the planes to test a new oil filter, says he forgot about the President's visit and the flight restrictions. He didn't check with flight services, and flares were fired at his plane to get his attention and get him out of the area.

"I just flew between two of them, I don't know how to explain it. I just didn't want one falling, especially on my fuel tank, I've got 40 gallons on either side. Kind of made a mess out it, I didn't mean to mess those people up like that, cause all that trouble," the pilot, Larry Kuehn said.

When a VIP like the President is in town, a temporary no fly zone goes into effect. When a no fly zone is in effect, an Air Force radar plane monitors the airspace. It is called AWACS, which stands for Airborne Warning and Control System. I can detect when an aircraft ventures into restricted air space. AWACS immediately calls the military to come in and intercept a plane.

National guard sources say in this case, two F-16's were unable to intercept the planes by radio, so they had to deploy the flares to get the pilots' attention.
________________________________________________________________________________

Too much can be said about this guy...especially if you watch the video. People are idiots (even the witnesses).
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 4:44:48 PM EST
Man, I bet those fighters probably had real bullets.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 4:44:59 PM EST
They make it sound like they fired a missle at them. Its was probably some chaff. Flares fall downward, not towards a target. Dumbass media always have to make sound like there was some provocation.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 4:44:59 PM EST
I have never flown a plane (though I would love to learn one day), but how do you not notice 2 F-16's??
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 4:45:29 PM EST
Because he is a dumbass.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 4:49:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 4:50:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2004 4:51:49 PM EST by Airwolf]
One of the reasons I haven't flown since 9/11

The TFR they put up around POTUS are THIRTY NAUTICAL MILES in diameter for the most part, have a nasty habit of being announced and changed rapidly.

AOPA has been working with the FAA and TSA since day one on this and other than getting a better notification system in place, not much has changed. The Feds simply won't budge on locking down HUGE amounts of airspace. Every so often Murphy's Law is going to catch up with someone and they're going to need a change of underwear afterwords.

Not worth risking my tickets that I've had for nearly 30 years on this bullshit. I'll wait until I move to the middle of nowhere before resuming flying.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 4:51:33 PM EST
WTF? "Fired Flares"?


Flares FALL!
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 4:55:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2004 4:56:21 PM EST by 2A373]
This is what flares from F-16's look like;

OVER IRAQ -- A pair of F-16 Fighting Falcons launch flares during a mission Aug. 18. The aircraft are assigned to the 332nd Air Expeditionary Wing at Balad Air Base, Iraq, from the New Mexico Air National Guard.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:02:13 PM EST
I'm pretty sure some flares can be fired vertically from dispensers mounted to pylons - but even then they sure as hell can't be "aimed" at anything!

If anything, the fighters were simply trying to get the pilots' attention. They obviously had their heads up their asses and needed it.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:03:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
They make it sound like they fired a missle at them. Its was probably some chaff. Flares fall downward, not towards a target. Dumbass media always have to make sound like there was some provocation.



Chaff is deployed from the same dispenser as the flares. Both are expelled by impulse cartridges and fire downward. Chaff is real fine and hard to see, even when it's up close. Pilot probably punched off a few flares.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:05:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:06:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By bmick325:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
They make it sound like they fired a missle at them. Its was probably some chaff. Flares fall downward, not towards a target. Dumbass media always have to make sound like there was some provocation.



Chaff is deployed from the same dispenser as the flares. Both are expelled by impulse cartridges and fire downward. Chaff is real fine and hard to see, even when it's up close. Pilot probably punched off a few flares.



If you watch the video you can easily see that the plane "swings its ass end around" in an effort to direct rear FALLING flares. This is why I said even the witnesses are idiots!
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:06:23 PM EST
Stupid pilot. I assume he took off from a non-towered airstrip?
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:18:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2004 5:18:33 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:20:31 PM EST
Tracers....

Not flares.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:21:07 PM EST
My mistake, for some reason I thought chaff=flares!
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:26:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:26:38 PM EST
They were lucky it wasn't some 20 mike mike or a AIM-9.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:26:41 PM EST
what a cocksucker, that's exactly why before take-of you monitor if not the notams, then 121.5
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:27:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:27:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
My mistake, for some reason I thought chaff=flares!



Chaff: little strands of metal, kinds like fine steel wool - countermeasure against radar tracking

Flares: Extremely hot and bright - countermeasure against IR tracking

Neither can be "aimed" though.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:28:23 PM EST
now the million dollar question could they legally of shot him down?
istead of using flares.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:28:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By AnubisOwnsYou:
Tracers....

Not flares.



Huh?
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:31:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:31:44 PM EST
Yes.


Originally Posted By hanau:
now the million dollar question could they legally of shot him down?
istead of using flares.

Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:33:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:38:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2004 5:39:55 PM EST by KA3B]
The F-16 pilot was single salvoing FLARES from his AN/ALE - 47 chaff/flare launcher.

What the AN/ALE-47 looks like on a C-130:


The AN/ALE-47 Counter Measures Dispenser System provides an integrated, reprogrammable, computer controlled system to dispense expendables/decoys to enhance aircraft survivability. The ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser System is an integrated, reprogrammable, computer controlled system to dispense expendables/decoys, designed to employ electronic and infrared countermeasures according to a program developed and implemented by the aircrew. ALE-47 provides the aircrew with a "smart” countermeasures dispensing system, allowing the aircrew to optimize the countermeasures employed against anti-aircraft threats. The ALE-47 system is an upgraded version of the ALE-40, which is more automatic and is programmable to better enhance its capabilities depending on aircraft mission.

Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:52:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2004 5:52:56 PM EST by 1776]

Originally Posted By Misery:
Stupid pilot. I assume he took off from a non-towered airstrip?





And that makes him stupid? You're an idiot.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 5:54:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 6:04:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2004 6:04:29 PM EST by 1776]

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:

Originally Posted By 1776:

Originally Posted By Misery:
Stupid pilot. I assume he took off from a non-towered airstrip?





And that makes him stupid? You're an idiot.



No, ignoring the announced nofly status makes him an idiot, taking off from a no tower strip under the circumstances reinforces the idea that there should be more limits to what idiots are liscensed to fly.




You will feel all warm and fuzzy knowing you're spooning with John Mcain's on that thought. If anything the limits should be relaxed a bit.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 6:06:47 PM EST
Stupid EX-pilot, most likely... Generally, if the Air Force has to chase you away from something, the FAA won't be too happy about it eather...

And yes, those were IR decoy flares...

It's a safer way to get the pilot's attention than playing 'Top Gun' & dropping in off his wing... It's also a much more desirable alternative to firing tracers, as flares will not harm aircraft, but a 20mm 'flyer' will...
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 6:11:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By 1776:

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:

Originally Posted By 1776:

Originally Posted By Misery:
Stupid pilot. I assume he took off from a non-towered airstrip?





And that makes him stupid? You're an idiot.



No, ignoring the announced nofly status makes him an idiot, taking off from a no tower strip under the circumstances reinforces the idea that there should be more limits to what idiots are liscensed to fly.



You will feel all warm and fuzzy knowing you're spooning with John Mcain's on that thought. If anything the limits should be relaxed a bit.



1776, are you a pilot, or have you ever tried to become one?

These sorts of things are generally posted as notices-to-airmen... One of the rules of flying is that you MUST read all such notices that effect the areas you will fly in...

It's also generally known that if the President is coming to town you MIGHT want to check and make sure you don't fly too close to AF-1...

But some folks just don't care... We had something like this in Milwaukee, AF-1 was on it's way to our airport, and some dingbat in a light plane didn't read the notices & got the official USAF welcome mat...

Flying has rules, you pay alot of money to learn them before you can fly, it makes sense to FOLLOW THE GODDAMN RULES, especially in cases like this...
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 6:15:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:
Man, I bet those fighters probably had real bullets.



Ignore the flares at your peril. A half second burst from the Vulcan is 50 rounds of 20mm.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 6:17:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Flying has rules, you pay alot of money to learn them before you can fly, it makes sense to FOLLOW THE GODDAMN RULES, especially in cases like this...



and why the hell aint drivers licenses like that?
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 6:18:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By 2A373:
This is what flares from F-16's look like;
www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/040818-F-4884R-010.jpg
OVER IRAQ -- A pair of F-16 Fighting Falcons launch flares during a mission Aug. 18. The aircraft are assigned to the 332nd Air Expeditionary Wing at Balad Air Base, Iraq, from the New Mexico Air National Guard.



That was nice of them to do that for my birthday.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 6:56:13 PM EST
What an idiot... If the F-16s were trying to hit the guy with something, it would not have been with flares! First, not checking the NOTAMS... Then, not monitoring your radio? WTH? This guy was just asking for trouble.

Let's see, two F-16s, probably flying for an hour (let's be honest, anything beyond an hour takes a tanker), burning 8000 - 10000 pounds of fuel probably cost the taxpayers $20,000 - $25,000 easy. I think the FAA should yank that guy's ticket and give it back in a few months or years.

As to the legality of shooting down a plane threatening the POTUS post-9/11 - HELL YES! There is a reason that they have these fighter CAPs and it is not for shooting fireworks to make all the idiots run to the TV cameras...

Spooky
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 8:14:09 PM EST
I agree that the guy in the cessna was a total tool, but did those flares land in someones back yard? Like couldnt the burn down the neighborhood
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 8:17:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 8:24:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2004 8:28:54 PM EST by CFII]
I love it when non-pilots chime in with thier wonderful insight. The local pilots didnt read any NOTAMS, and just went along thier merry way. The FAA will slap them hard, but not pull thier ticket permanent. Uncontrolled strips are more fun to fly at then towered strips, and have nothing to do with your piloting ability. But hell, what do I know, I only do this for a living
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 8:28:50 PM EST
Imagine the political fallout from shooting down some shmuck in his Cesna.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 8:30:30 PM EST
Worked with F-16's my whole career. Seen flare drops from multiple fighter and heavy airframes. The flares can't be aimed, but if you watch the video from the news station, those 16's are in fact dropping flares. They were banking the aircraft to get the flares, which normally fire downwards, to come out on a sideways trajectory. Small aircraft was not in any danger.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 8:40:19 PM EST
Regardless, I think this event would be a good indication of some new underwear for our lil cessna junkie...


- BG
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 8:41:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Regardless, I think this event would be a good indication of some new underwear for our lil cessna junkie...


- BG



A HUGE +1 on that. That guy seriously had to change his pants after that.
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 10:23:39 PM EST
Stupid F16 pilots. Dont they know you cant take fire onto planes?
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