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Posted: 3/10/2017 4:58:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2017 6:31:25 PM EDT by joglee]
This is part 1.

I hope to attain additional information regarding this trial at a later date, until then. Enjoy.

Takeaway....DI is as reliable as pistons in Class I and II stoppages. Colt proposal B was the IAR we have all seen weighing 9.5lbs.





Colt proposal B is the second Colt.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:04:34 PM EDT
I wonder who competitor F is. (and H )
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:10:52 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By danpass:
I wonder who competitor F is. (and H )
View Quote

Agreed. Why are some company names listed but others aren't.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:11:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2017 5:12:05 PM EDT by quick2k3]
124 failures?!

Those guys need to look at....

Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:16:10 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AKFF:

Agreed. Why are some company names listed but others aren't.
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Originally Posted By AKFF:
Originally Posted By danpass:
I wonder who competitor F is. (and H )

Agreed. Why are some company names listed but others aren't.


solicited vs unsolicited entries???
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:22:38 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AKFF:

Agreed. Why are some company names listed but others aren't.
View Quote


The listed companies are the only 4 to make the final downselect.

Think about this the Colt bid was $14 million.
H&K was $26 million.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:26:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By joglee:
This is part 1.

I hope to attain additional information regarding this trial at a later date, until then. Enjoy.

Takeaway....DI is as reliable as pistons in Class I and II stoppages. Colt proposal B was the IAR we have all seen weighing 9.5lbs.

http://i.imgur.com/JWrG5kzh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dpB0N8t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UmtmBA3.jpg
View Quote


Not surprised, we've known this and more since two men with a wheelbarrow and a shovel proved it.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:28:03 PM EDT
The document says 2008 at the top. Is that when this data is from?
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:30:34 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By quick2k3:
124 failures?!

Those guys need to look at....

http://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/313449/72352.JPG
View Quote


Haha I forgot all about those jackasses.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:33:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2017 5:34:48 PM EDT by joglee]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fargo007:
The document says 2008 at the top. Is that when this data is from?
View Quote


Yes. The Marine Corps infantry automatic rifle competition completed in 2008.

My FOIA completed today. I will say the person who handled my case at MARSCORSYSCOM was incredibly friendly and nice.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:40:39 PM EDT
Yea but the new Marines have a cool rifle.

You laugh, but when I dumped my A2 for a new M4 it was like Christmas.

Colt served honorably, but the military will eventually be shooting Kraught/Stoner rifles.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:42:11 PM EDT
I bet someone with competitor (i) had their ass handed to them.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:45:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2017 5:46:12 PM EDT by joglee]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
Yea but the new Marines have a cool rifle.

You laugh, but when I dumped my A2 for a new M4 it was like Christmas.

Colt served honorably, but the military will eventually be shooting Kraught/Stoner rifles.
View Quote


It looks like the Colt did as good, also cost far less per rifle.

Is switching for switchings sake really a good thing?
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 5:54:09 PM EDT
Thanks for sharing this and the leg work to get it!
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:00:22 PM EDT
RIP super awesome, scattered to the cyberwinds, IAR thread with Gunner Wade.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:09:08 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By iasc300ia:
Thanks for sharing this and the leg work to get it!
View Quote


No problem.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:27:32 PM EDT
The real question is, who got the job at HK ?
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:31:38 PM EDT
Added image of the proposals.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:33:22 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By joglee:


It looks like the Colt did as good, also cost far less per rifle.

Is switching for switchings sake really a good thing?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By joglee:
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
Yea but the new Marines have a cool rifle.

You laugh, but when I dumped my A2 for a new M4 it was like Christmas.

Colt served honorably, but the military will eventually be shooting Kraught/Stoner rifles.


It looks like the Colt did as good, also cost far less per rifle.

Is switching for switchings sake really a good thing?
Yes it is worth spending several thousand dollars per weapon for a one round difference 

in test reliability.

And Generals need jobs too ya'know.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:34:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2017 6:35:00 PM EDT by MILSPEC556]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By joglee:


It looks like the Colt did as good, also cost far less per rifle.

Is switching for switchings sake really a good thing?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By joglee:
Originally Posted By FREEFALLE7:
Yea but the new Marines have a cool rifle.

You laugh, but when I dumped my A2 for a new M4 it was like Christmas.

Colt served honorably, but the military will eventually be shooting Kraught/Stoner rifles.


It looks like the Colt did as good, also cost far less per rifle.

Is switching for switchings sake really a good thing?


The only was I see it happening is if the price of HK bids drops considerably. Big Army likes to make damn sure there is an incredibly significant benefit before paying such a massive increase in price per unit.

I think the high ups would rather have the HK, but the cost to benefit ratio just isn't there to replace every M4 and M4A1 in inventory.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:36:11 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By danpass:
I wonder who competitor F is. (and H )
View Quote


C also a little lower, although percentage wise not too much.

H -
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:37:04 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:


The only was I see it happening is if the price of HK bids drops considerably. Big Army likes to make damn sure there is an incredibly significant benefit before paying such a massive increase in price per unit.

I think the high ups would rather have the HK, but the cost to benefit ratio just isn't there to replace every M4 and M4A1 in inventory.
View Quote


It look likes an extra $2000 per rifle nets you a extra 1 round before stoppage.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:37:49 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gator:


C also a little lower, although percentage wise not too much.

H -
View Quote


You know whoever I was got their dick slapped for that mistake.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:41:25 PM EDT
Big .Mil procurement is always political. Someone got some sweet palm grease from HK for helping to get them selected.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:42:29 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By whiskerz:
The real question is, who got the job at HK ?
View Quote


Probably not OP.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:44:42 PM EDT
while interesting for information purposes, the results are dated now.  the most recent tests were done with M855A1 ammo and the new EPM mags and Gen3 Pmags, none of which were around for this 2008 test
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:46:44 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 3Trip:


Not surprised, we've known this and more since two men with a wheelbarrow and a shovel proved it.
View Quote


Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:58:32 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mcantu:
while interesting for information purposes, the results are dated now.  the most recent tests were done with M855A1 ammo and the new EPM mags and Gen3 Pmags, none of which were around for this 2008 test
View Quote


They also don't consider accuracy, where the HK will dominate.

The writing's on the wall and they're getting a new gun. It may not be the HK416/IAR, but it's definitely not going to be any flavor of what they already have.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 6:59:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2017 7:02:09 PM EDT by joglee]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mcantu:
while interesting for information purposes, the results are dated now.  the most recent tests were done with M855A1 ammo and the new EPM mags and Gen3 Pmags, none of which were around for this 2008 test
View Quote


It is actually still very relevant.

From what I have seen the 416 performs horribly with M855A1, enough so that the chamber wall gets destroyed...Something that does not happen to the M4.(I posted pictures of this in my magazine thread in technical).

So if with M855 the Colt performed on par with the H&K it's safe to assume 855A1 would not go in favor of the 416.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:03:16 PM EDT
Why didn't we go with competitor F....
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:10:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2017 7:12:41 PM EDT by GS5414]
I'm face palming right now. So much face palming.

S/F
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:13:07 PM EDT
I may have missed something here, but total rounds fired on each gun would be 2400, right? And the number of Class 1 and 2 failures are the number of failures for that gun within that 2400 round test.

They wanted mean rounds between failures of 900. Unless I'm very confused, your best performer would be Entry F, whose MRBF here would be 2400/12=200 MRBF. Your worst is H at 2400/124=19 MRBF. HK =2400/27=88.88... (appropriate for a German company) MRBF.

Did they run a new type of ammo in these? The M4 is performing at 3600 MRBS according to a 2009 letter (http://www.peosoldier.army.mil/docs/WeaponsReliabilityInformationPaper-Oct%2009.pdf), with a requirement of 600. The best performer being at 200 MRBF? That's terrible.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:14:31 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By GS5414:
I'm face palming right now. So much face palming.

S/F
View Quote


Explain?

This information came from MARSCORSYSCOM.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:15:37 PM EDT
Think it's possible to get a FOIA request on the names of the competitors?

I know it doesn't matter, but I'm interested nonetheless.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:18:16 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fargo007:


They also don't consider accuracy, where the HK will dominate.


The writing's on the wall and they're getting a new gun. It may not be the HK416/IAR, but it's definitely not going to be any flavor of what they already have.
View Quote


Why would a piston design dominate? DI is better.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:22:37 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By joglee:

Explain?

This information came from MARSCORSYSCOM.
View Quote


Test data is the test data. No face palming for that.

Face palming that you're persistent enough to file a FOIA for... what gain, I have no clue.

For the folks that are somewhat confused, know that there are far more tests performed of all flavors. It's always more than just if the gun goes bang or not, and how many times of each it does.

There are stupid things that happen every now and again. Like the magazine well, for instance. One day I'll tell that story, but mostly the IAR turned out pretty well.

S/F
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:23:37 PM EDT
in on 1
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:24:15 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GS5414:


Test data is the test data. No face palming for that.

Face palming that you're persistent enough to file a FOIA for... what gain, I have no clue.

For the folks that are somewhat confused, know that there are far more tests performed of all flavors. It's always more than just if the gun goes bang or not, and how many times of each it does.

There are stupid things that happen every now and again. Like the magazine well, for instance. One day I'll tell that story, but mostly the IAR turned out pretty well.

S/F
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By GS5414:
Originally Posted By joglee:

Explain?

This information came from MARSCORSYSCOM.


Test data is the test data. No face palming for that.

Face palming that you're persistent enough to file a FOIA for... what gain, I have no clue.

For the folks that are somewhat confused, know that there are far more tests performed of all flavors. It's always more than just if the gun goes bang or not, and how many times of each it does.

There are stupid things that happen every now and again. Like the magazine well, for instance. One day I'll tell that story, but mostly the IAR turned out pretty well.

S/F

Could it have been done as well or better, cheaper?

I think the answer is yes.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:28:06 PM EDT
So who had the last thread destroyed? Members of the industry who had a personal stake in the procurement or members of the military who were part of the procurement team?
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:29:28 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CorruptBureaucrat:

HK =2400/27=88.88... (appropriate for a German company)
View Quote






Also, Make Colt Great Again? Maybe?
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:30:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2017 7:33:52 PM EDT by joglee]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GS5414:


Test data is the test data. No face palming for that.

Face palming that you're persistent enough to file a FOIA for... what gain, I have no clue.

For the folks that are somewhat confused, know that there are far more tests performed of all flavors. It's always more than just if the gun goes bang or not, and how many times of each it does.

There are stupid things that happen every now and again. Like the magazine well, for instance. One day I'll tell that story, but mostly the IAR turned out pretty well.

S/F
View Quote


So now you're mad that I got the actual data?

I got this data because I wanted to. It actually wasn't complicated and the MARSCORSYSCOM person was super friendly.

I guess it's better to stay forever shrouded in mystery.

Also generally when it comes to discussing gun X vs gun Z it comes down to what goes bang more.

Why do you think that 2007 dust test is used so much.

At the same time the Marine Corps is wanting to fleet the M27, so it seems like a good time to show how well it performed compared to the other rifles.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:38:52 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By joglee:


It is actually still very relevant.

From what I have seen the 416 performs horribly with M855A1, enough so that the chamber wall gets destroyed...Something that does not happen to the M4.(I posted pictures of this in my magazine thread in technical).

So if with M855 the Colt performed on par with the H&K it's safe to assume 855A1 would not go in favor of the 416.
View Quote

I'm guessing you missed the, now nuked, M27 thread from the most recent trials
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:41:03 PM EDT
Mad? No. Amazed? Yes.

What mystery is there?

What's to discuss that hasn't been beat into the ground already?

Why is this in GD instead of the tech forum?

Why is your MO what it is? Just severe curiosity?

Maybe I just don't get it. Oh well.

S/F
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:41:33 PM EDT
Wasn't the Ultimax one of the candidates? Maybe the Negev, too.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 7:42:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2017 8:45:01 PM EDT by joglee]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GS5414:
Mad? No. Amazed? Yes.

What mystery is there?

What's to discuss that hasn't been beat into the ground already?

Why is this in GD instead of the tech forum?

Why is your MO what it is? Just severe curiosity?

Maybe I just don't get it. Oh well.

S/F
View Quote


Severe curiosity is a good way to put it.

Also figured it would get more exposure here. But tech wouldn't be bad, but I'm not sure what category it would fall under there.

Hey if you know where in technical this would fit I'll gladly post it there.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 8:16:07 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GS5414:


Test data is the test data. No face palming for that.

Face palming that you're persistent enough to file a FOIA for... what gain, I have no clue.

For the folks that are somewhat confused, know that there are far more tests performed of all flavors. It's always more than just if the gun goes bang or not, and how many times of each it does.

There are stupid things that happen every now and again. Like the magazine well, for instance. One day I'll tell that story, but mostly the IAR turned out pretty well.

S/F
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GS5414:
Originally Posted By joglee:

Explain?

This information came from MARSCORSYSCOM.


Test data is the test data. No face palming for that.

Face palming that you're persistent enough to file a FOIA for... what gain, I have no clue.

For the folks that are somewhat confused, know that there are far more tests performed of all flavors. It's always more than just if the gun goes bang or not, and how many times of each it does.

There are stupid things that happen every now and again. Like the magazine well, for instance. One day I'll tell that story, but mostly the IAR turned out pretty well.

S/F


Are you a small arms PM?
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 8:33:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/10/2017 8:33:52 PM EDT by JustaGunNut]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GS5414:
Mad? No. Amazed? Yes.

What mystery is there?

What's to discuss that hasn't been beat into the ground already?

Why is this in GD instead of the tech forum?

Why is your MO what it is? Just severe curiosity?

Maybe I just don't get it. Oh well.

S/F
View Quote


I think we just want to continue the discussion that got nuked last time. There was a shitload of good info in that last thread and I think a lot of people are disappointed it disappeared.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 8:43:07 PM EDT
I'm still mad the last thread got nuked. There was so much useful information and I didn't get to read it all...
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 8:50:42 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DonS:


Why would a piston design dominate? DI is better.
View Quote


Not the piston specifically but the HK is far more accurate for far longer of a lifetime.
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 8:56:22 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By danpass:
I wonder who competitor F is. (and H )
View Quote
F is an RPK in 5.56
Link Posted: 3/10/2017 8:56:40 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GS5414:
Mad? No. Amazed? Yes.

What mystery is there?

What's to discuss that hasn't been beat into the ground already?

Why is this in GD instead of the tech forum?

Why is your MO what it is? Just severe curiosity?

Maybe I just don't get it. Oh well.

S/F
View Quote


He's interested in the procurement process and testing/eval done by the military. And the FOIA exists to be used, Not seeing the issue here.

He doesn't have a personal agenda with this if that's what you were thinking, just interest.
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