[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Extremist complex attacks (Page 1 of 5)
Posted: 11/14/2015 4:57:43 PM EDT
|
Quoted:
Palestinians switched to bombing in the 1970's because the Israelis hardened targets after so many of these style attacks. If you are of a certain age, you'll remember the phrase "Palestinian gunmen" was frequently on the nightly news. I was going to say the same thing. Israel has been dealing with these kinds of attacks for decades. |
|
Quoted:
Poorly, at first. If you can't "profile" you can't prevent these. Quoted:
Quoted:
How will these type of attacks be handled in the US? Poorly, at first. If you can't "profile" you can't prevent these. Exactly. When the world is able to say "Muslims....ALL Muslims...are a threat" then we can begin to,respond. Until then, were F'd |
|
Quoted:
I was going to say the same thing. Israel has been dealing with these kinds of attacks for decades. Quoted:
Quoted:
Palestinians switched to bombing in the 1970's because the Israelis hardened targets after so many of these style attacks. If you are of a certain age, you'll remember the phrase "Palestinian gunmen" was frequently on the nightly news. I was going to say the same thing. Israel has been dealing with these kinds of attacks for decades. These attacks have been happening elsewhere in the world for a long time. The point is that this exact MO has become a main tactic of the current crop of actors, and they have plenty of very recent experience executing them. The prevalence of IED tactics and technology is at it's highest point ever now, something even Israel hasn't fully experienced. |
|
Quoted: Exactly. When the world is able to say "Muslims....ALL Muslims...are a threat" then we can begin to,respond. Until then, were F'd Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How will these type of attacks be handled in the US? Poorly, at first. If you can't "profile" you can't prevent these. Exactly. When the world is able to say "Muslims....ALL Muslims...are a threat" then we can begin to,respond. Until then, were F'd You can, in today's America, say all combat veterans are potentially right wing radicalized and may be a threat. You cannot say the same about muslims. Anyway, these recent events are a symptom, not the disease. We could significantly curtail if not completely eliminate the threat. We lack the will to do so. The cause of our lack of will is actually the "disease" that warrants close examination. The agents of that cause are more dangerous to us than muslim terrorists and have been more successful, to date, in destroying our country and its way of life. IMO. |
|
Quoted:
These attacks have been happening elsewhere in the world for a long time. The point is that this exact MO has become a main tactic of the current crop of actors, and they have plenty of very recent experience executing them. The prevalence of IED tactics and technology is at it's highest point ever now, something even Israel hasn't fully experienced. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Palestinians switched to bombing in the 1970's because the Israelis hardened targets after so many of these style attacks. If you are of a certain age, you'll remember the phrase "Palestinian gunmen" was frequently on the nightly news. I was going to say the same thing. Israel has been dealing with these kinds of attacks for decades. These attacks have been happening elsewhere in the world for a long time. The point is that this exact MO has become a main tactic of the current crop of actors, and they have plenty of very recent experience executing them. The prevalence of IED tactics and technology is at it's highest point ever now, something even Israel hasn't fully experienced. How sophisticated were the devices used in Paris? Weren't they just vests? |
|
Quoted: These attacks have been happening elsewhere in the world for a long time. The point is that this exact MO has become a main tactic of the current crop of actors, and they have plenty of very recent experience executing them. The prevalence of IED tactics and technology is at it's highest point ever now, something even Israel hasn't fully experienced. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Palestinians switched to bombing in the 1970's because the Israelis hardened targets after so many of these style attacks. If you are of a certain age, you'll remember the phrase "Palestinian gunmen" was frequently on the nightly news. I was going to say the same thing. Israel has been dealing with these kinds of attacks for decades. These attacks have been happening elsewhere in the world for a long time. The point is that this exact MO has become a main tactic of the current crop of actors, and they have plenty of very recent experience executing them. The prevalence of IED tactics and technology is at it's highest point ever now, something even Israel hasn't fully experienced. No doubt. But we're talking about refinements to existing threat doctrine and not really anything "new". Not to suggest you're stating otherwise. |
|
Quoted:
How sophisticated were the devices used in Paris? Weren't they just vests? Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Palestinians switched to bombing in the 1970's because the Israelis hardened targets after so many of these style attacks. If you are of a certain age, you'll remember the phrase "Palestinian gunmen" was frequently on the nightly news. I was going to say the same thing. Israel has been dealing with these kinds of attacks for decades. These attacks have been happening elsewhere in the world for a long time. The point is that this exact MO has become a main tactic of the current crop of actors, and they have plenty of very recent experience executing them. The prevalence of IED tactics and technology is at it's highest point ever now, something even Israel hasn't fully experienced. How sophisticated were the devices used in Paris? Weren't they just vests? The prevalence and knowledge to build working devices is what I was referencing. The T&E on just about everything has already been conducted, and the infrastructure necessary to make/source them is simpler and more decentralized. The tech and sophistication is also at an all-time high, to the point where highly technical devices are available to the most low-tech cell, regardless of what was used in Paris. |
|
Quoted:
No doubt. But we're talking about refinements to existing threat doctrine and not really anything "new". Not to suggest you're stating otherwise. Right, but the "new" part still applies to the west. If one has no clear expectation and plan for something like this occurring, it doesn't really matter how long it has happened somewhere else. |
|
Quoted: Right, but the "new" part still applies to the west. If one has no clear expectation and plan for something like this occurring, it doesn't really matter how long it has happened somewhere else. Quoted: Quoted: No doubt. But we're talking about refinements to existing threat doctrine and not really anything "new". Not to suggest you're stating otherwise. Right, but the "new" part still applies to the west. If one has no clear expectation and plan for something like this occurring, it doesn't really matter how long it has happened somewhere else. Concur. |
|
Quoted:
Right, but the "new" part still applies to the west. If one has no clear expectation and plan for something like this occurring, it doesn't really matter how long it has happened somewhere else. Quoted:
Quoted:
No doubt. But we're talking about refinements to existing threat doctrine and not really anything "new". Not to suggest you're stating otherwise. Right, but the "new" part still applies to the west. If one has no clear expectation and plan for something like this occurring, it doesn't really matter how long it has happened somewhere else. So, how should a normal person plan for and react to this happening here? |
|
Quoted:
So, how should a normal person plan for and react to this happening here? Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No doubt. But we're talking about refinements to existing threat doctrine and not really anything "new". Not to suggest you're stating otherwise. Right, but the "new" part still applies to the west. If one has no clear expectation and plan for something like this occurring, it doesn't really matter how long it has happened somewhere else. So, how should a normal person plan for and react to this happening here? Vigilance. Be aware of your surroundings. Have an escape plan for everywhere you go, have means of defending yourself and those you care about. Report suspicious activity to proper authority figures. |
|
Quoted:
So, how should a normal person plan for and react to this happening here? Hard to answer, as it is completely full of amorphous requirements and variables but....my best suggestion? Be prepared. Carry when/where you can. Also keep a substantial first aid kit in your vehicle or bag and know how to use it. The sheer odds of being involved in an attack like this are pretty low, but if you are the odds of being in proximity of an actual shooter are way lower. You have a much better chance of being able to help provide immediate care to casualties. That and being able to relay specifics to first responders to help develop the big picture is what actually allows assets to be put in the right places. If you see all the social media posts to the outside from Paris they are filled with nonsense and drama, no real specific information that can be used to help anyone. Sending out info including descriptions, addresses, direction of travel, numbers of hostiles, weapons used, etc would be much more helpful. Like I said, ive actually been in the middle of around a dozen of these type scenarios at least, but the opportunity to engage a live hostile during one has been pretty rare, and from pretty far off when it has presented itself. Thats the nature of this tactic, spread out with small numbers of people actively engaged that stay on the move. I have cut suicide vests off their bodies before, and provided aid to some of the piles of shredded wounded, and ive seen the shooters on rooftops, but you do what you can where you can. Again, these types of attacks are not generally stopped by people already there. The targets are selected for being soft in the first place. They are stopped by the strategic application of forces, so solid information provided to authorities during the event is key. |
|
Quoted:
How will these type of attacks be handled in the US? Well first will come the shootings, and with many on the Left avoiding the taboo message of identifying radical Islam and the recent influx of immigrants as the problem, they will naturally push for serious gun control. The public will quietly move further toward the Right as everyone is thinking about the real root of the problem. When Boston happened, no one could blame a method for the violence, because - small kitchen appliance. If they drive a UHaul truck through a crowd, like detailed in Inspire, the same. But shootings? Gun control. I think the Western world's chair is moving closer to the wall. I wonder what some game theorists have forecasted for the next 5-10 years. |
|
Quoted: So, how should a normal person plan for and react to this happening here? |
|
Quoted:
Hard to answer, as it is completely full of amorphous requirements and variables but....my best suggestion? Be prepared. Carry when/where you can. Also keep a substantial first aid kit in your vehicle or bag and know how to use it. The sheer odds of being involved in an attack like this are pretty low, but if you are the odds of being in proximity of an actual shooter are way lower. You have a much better chance of being able to help provide immediate care to casualties. That and being able to relay specifics to first responders to help develop the big picture is what actually allows assets to be put in the right places. If you see all the social media posts to the outside from Paris they are filled with nonsense and drama, no real specific information that can be used to help anyone. Sending out info including descriptions, addresses, direction of travel, numbers of hostiles, weapons used, etc would be much more helpful. Like I said, ive actually been in the middle of around a dozen of these type scenarios at least, but the opportunity to engage a live hostile during one has been pretty rare, and from pretty far off when it has presented itself. Thats the nature of this tactic, spread out with small numbers of people actively engaged that stay on the move. I have cut suicide vests off their bodies before, and provided aid to some of the piles of shredded wounded, and ive seen the shooters on rooftops, but you do what you can where you can. Again, these types of attacks are not generally stopped by people already there. The targets are selected for being soft in the first place. They are stopped by the strategic application of forces, so solid information provided to authorities during the event is key. Quoted:
Quoted:
So, how should a normal person plan for and react to this happening here? Hard to answer, as it is completely full of amorphous requirements and variables but....my best suggestion? Be prepared. Carry when/where you can. Also keep a substantial first aid kit in your vehicle or bag and know how to use it. The sheer odds of being involved in an attack like this are pretty low, but if you are the odds of being in proximity of an actual shooter are way lower. You have a much better chance of being able to help provide immediate care to casualties. That and being able to relay specifics to first responders to help develop the big picture is what actually allows assets to be put in the right places. If you see all the social media posts to the outside from Paris they are filled with nonsense and drama, no real specific information that can be used to help anyone. Sending out info including descriptions, addresses, direction of travel, numbers of hostiles, weapons used, etc would be much more helpful. Like I said, ive actually been in the middle of around a dozen of these type scenarios at least, but the opportunity to engage a live hostile during one has been pretty rare, and from pretty far off when it has presented itself. Thats the nature of this tactic, spread out with small numbers of people actively engaged that stay on the move. I have cut suicide vests off their bodies before, and provided aid to some of the piles of shredded wounded, and ive seen the shooters on rooftops, but you do what you can where you can. Again, these types of attacks are not generally stopped by people already there. The targets are selected for being soft in the first place. They are stopped by the strategic application of forces, so solid information provided to authorities during the event is key. Kinda what I figured. We're doing that already. If someone is involved in a scenario like this, how should they get the info, descriptions and location out? |
|
Quoted:
As has been said previously, vigilance and situational awareness. Gavin De Becker's book, "The Gift of Fear" is a good read about trusting your gut, even if it does have a flaky title. CAT torniquets, a well-stocked first aid kit (duct tape, Ziploc bags, medical shears, maybe some Quik-Clot, Israeli bandages, lawn and leaf bags will help offset shock in a pinch and are waaaay cheaper than space blankets, etc.) and some basic skills unless you want to take it further and get your EMT cert. Can probably do more in that situation with a tourniquet and a cell phone to call in a description than anything else. Quoted:
Quoted:
So, how should a normal person plan for and react to this happening here? I'm a well armed, well-equipped EMT. |
|
Quoted:
How will these type of attacks be handled in the US? Quoted:
How will these type of attacks be handled in the US? 
Given that the terrorists used fully automatic machine gun type AK's assault weapons like the ones covered by the 1994 ban, I am calling for a complete and total ban on them, as well as high capacity magazines like those used in school shootings except the ones where the criminals used extra 10-round mags instead Quoted:
Only so much you can do when someone is happy to die for their cause. 
I remember a retired USSS saying essentially the same thing the night the above happened. All the laws and protection lose a lot of their deterrence when the actor doesn't care about being killed or captured. |
|
Quoted:
Exactly. When the world is able to say "Muslims....ALL Muslims...are a threat" then we can begin to,respond. Until then, were F'd Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How will these type of attacks be handled in the US? Poorly, at first. If you can't "profile" you can't prevent these. Exactly. When the world is able to say "Muslims....ALL Muslims...are a threat" then we can begin to,respond. Until then, were F'd Yep. |
|
Quoted:
Kinda what I figured. We're doing that already. If someone is involved in a scenario like this, how should they get the info, descriptions and location out? In my situations I have a radio and multiple echelons I can talk to. For here, you obviously wont get through to 911 but I guess we can learn from Paris in that the authorities had realized this and were actively scanning social media looking for information. Send a sitrep and picture up to a news agency website. It will get seen by the right people. Whatever works. |
|
Quoted:
In my situations I have a radio and multiple echelons I can talk to. For here, you obviously wont get through to 911 but I guess we can learn from Paris in that the authorities had realized this and were actively scanning social media looking for information. Send a sitrep and picture up to a news agency website. It will get seen by the right people. Whatever works. Quoted:
Quoted:
Kinda what I figured. We're doing that already. If someone is involved in a scenario like this, how should they get the info, descriptions and location out? In my situations I have a radio and multiple echelons I can talk to. For here, you obviously wont get through to 911 but I guess we can learn from Paris in that the authorities had realized this and were actively scanning social media looking for information. Send a sitrep and picture up to a news agency website. It will get seen by the right people. Whatever works. That is great info. Thanks. |
|
I feel like it is technology versus will.
In the middle eastern areas, you had people who had the will and the mindset to kill, but lacked technology. You couldn't teach them to effectively go in a group and shoot people, but you could con several to don a vest and push a button. In the US, you have a ton of technology, and availability of stuff capable of mass harm. You just don't have a lot possessing the courage of their convictions to do much besides bark. Now, we are entering an era of where people with the will, but couldn't afford a ticket to get here, are coming here. They won't have any issues leveraging hazardous materials and equipment. There is no real way to stop this. We are now in the end moves of a looong chess game that has the citizens that care boxed in, legally unable to act, by the few that encourage the downfall of the USA for whatever reason with the backing of the majority of our government. I am certain I will be taken to task, but honestly; it's going to take getting our noses bloodied a few more times before we can adopt the muslim mindset, where the moderates might complain, but won't restrain the extremists who will take the fight to the Bad Guys on our own soil. This will sound hollow, but I wish it would hurry up and happen. I don't believe the generation after me by and large is in any shape to do what it takes to solve this; and I hate leaving the US in this current state if I pass before it starts. Sorry for rambling. It's late, and I'm tired of talking. |
|
Quoted:
TATP? Hmmm. Same as the London bombers. Quoted:
Quoted:
News is reporting the suicide vests used TATP, which is a pretty sophisticated and dangerous explosive to manufacture, and definitely a ballsy one to use as a primary. The bar is being set pretty high. TATP? Hmmm. Same as the London bombers. Interesting that they let that out. |
|
Quoted:
Interesting that they let that out. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
News is reporting the suicide vests used TATP, which is a pretty sophisticated and dangerous explosive to manufacture, and definitely a ballsy one to use as a primary. The bar is being set pretty high. TATP? Hmmm. Same as the London bombers. Interesting that they let that out. Maybe to encourage the terrorists to keep using it? Organic Peroxides are not friendly/stable compounds, either to manufacture, or detonate. Significant chance of killing yourself in the process of making your suicide belt. |
|
Quoted:
Maybe to encourage the terrorists to keep using it? Organic Peroxides are not friendly/stable compounds, either to manufacture, or detonate. Significant chance of killing yourself in the process of making your suicide belt. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
News is reporting the suicide vests used TATP, which is a pretty sophisticated and dangerous explosive to manufacture, and definitely a ballsy one to use as a primary. The bar is being set pretty high. TATP? Hmmm. Same as the London bombers. Interesting that they let that out. Maybe to encourage the terrorists to keep using it? Organic Peroxides are not friendly/stable compounds, either to manufacture, or detonate. Significant chance of killing yourself in the process of making your suicide belt. They're simple and available, though. I'm surprised that was released and more surprised it hasn't been edited here. It used to be that those letters were taboo. |
|
Quoted:
They're simple and available, though. I'm surprised that was released and more surprised it hasn't been edited here. It used to be that those letters were taboo. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
News is reporting the suicide vests used TATP, which is a pretty sophisticated and dangerous explosive to manufacture, and definitely a ballsy one to use as a primary. The bar is being set pretty high. TATP? Hmmm. Same as the London bombers. Interesting that they let that out. Maybe to encourage the terrorists to keep using it? Organic Peroxides are not friendly/stable compounds, either to manufacture, or detonate. Significant chance of killing yourself in the process of making your suicide belt. They're simple and available, though. I'm surprised that was released and more surprised it hasn't been edited here. It used to be that those letters were taboo. The name TATP has never been sensitive by itself. That's not how that works. |
|
Quoted:
Palestinians switched to bombing in the 1970's because the Israelis hardened targets after so many of these style attacks. If you are of a certain age, you'll remember the phrase "Palestinian gunmen" was frequently on the nightly news. Interesting I do remember that. Wow way back time machine. Great thread btw and some good ideas. |
| Whatever is not stopped, the stuff general public only hears about if at all. And an attack like Paris that played out with destruction, to me is just going to be a luck of the draw as to if you are a casualty or a witness if you at a targeted spot and your best reaction will depend on the enviroment around you. And if I were a witness I think next to notifying authorities of info seen, maybe a voice recorder/ voice note would be an idea to get some info down while it's fresh in memory. Painful to think that Paris has given confidence to others that it can be done and all we can do is react to the aftermath. |
|
Quoted:
Maybe due to context regarding the source of the information, but TATP in itself is over 100 years old and not secret. The AP is reporting the use of it in the vests, I didn't pull it off SIPR. FYI, you didn't release any classified info. I googled it when you first posted it and the wiki article on TATP already says it was used in the Paris attacks. |
|
My biggest fear (beyond schools and shopping centers) is they try to hit a traffic choke point.
Steal and detonate a fuel tanker under a cloverleaf on one of the big southern California freeways during rush hour. Wander around executing the sitting duck survivors in their cars. The other fear is legit "terror" and something I don't really want to discuss on a public forum. While they are pretty crafty, I don't think they have thought this up, it would set the entire nation into panic. Hint: It involves our retail food supply chain. |
|
Quoted:
My biggest fear (beyond schools and shopping centers) is they try to choke a traffic point. Steal and detonate a fuel tanker under a cloverleaf on one of the big southern California freeways during rush hour. Wander around executing the sitting duck survivors in their cars. The other fear is legit "terror" and something I don't really want to discuss on a public forum. While they are pretty crafty, I don't think they have thought this up, it would set the entire nation into panic. Hint: It involves our retail food supply chain. Hint: They're not going to get all the migrants to go back south. |
|
Quoted:
My biggest fear (beyond schools and shopping centers) is they try to choke a traffic point. Steal and detonate a fuel tanker under a cloverleaf on one of the big southern California freeways during rush hour. Wander around executing the sitting duck survivors in their cars. The other fear is legit "terror" and something I don't really want to discuss on a public forum. While they are pretty crafty, I don't think they have thought this up, it would set the entire nation into panic. Hint:. If you're giving hints about it, you're probably not that worried about it. |
|
Quoted:
If you're giving hints about it, you're probably not that worried about it. Quoted:
Quoted:
My biggest fear (beyond schools and shopping centers) is they try to choke a traffic point. Steal and detonate a fuel tanker under a cloverleaf on one of the big southern California freeways during rush hour. Wander around executing the sitting duck survivors in their cars. The other fear is legit "terror" and something I don't really want to discuss on a public forum. While they are pretty crafty, I don't think they have thought this up, it would set the entire nation into panic. Hint:. If you're giving hints about it, you're probably not that worried about it. Devil is in the details. |