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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/12/2005 4:42:05 AM EDT
I'm working a Force Protection detail with the National Guard here in Florida, and one of my guards just brought an old man in to see me. He approached them outside our facility with his retiree mil ID (former E-7) hoping to pass along a new idea for defeating IEDs. I am not an engineer and have absolutely no idea if this would work, so I am posting here in the hopes that someone with a lot more experience and education can answer this question.

This old fellow really impressed me. He isn't looking to sell an idea to the Army, or even be acknowledged for it. He just wants to reduce the number of casualties we are suffering overseas.

I will quote verbatim the idea he proposed to me:
_______________________________________________

SUBJECT: Suggestion as to how to combat IED's.

REASON: To stop the enemy from causing more casualties.

EQUIPMENT NEEDED: Two (2) Ton Flat Bed Truck equipped with an AC Generator powerful enough to operate a large magnet to move in any direction with reverse current capability, to not only pick the item up, but also hurl it away with tremendous force to render it useless. The magnet should be mounted on the front of the vehicle with all the controls in easy reach and the operator can observe everything that's going on.

QUESTION: Has this idea ever been tried?

NOTE: This equipment should be deployed 100 yards ahead of the main convoy to intercept the IED. Also this vehicle should look like a civilian type vehicle, not a military mark on it. To decieve the enemy, hopefully.

I truly believe that a lot of inside help is being given to our enemies through our so called friends over there.

My name is: XXXXX
_______________________________________________

What do you guys think?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:44:35 AM EDT
Nope. Many real mines are non magnetic.

IED's may or may not be magnetic, but are buried.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:45:49 AM EDT
Would there be enough space between the flatbeds and IEDs? If no the IEDs would just blow up the flatbeds first, that would be cost prohibitive for every IED.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:48:45 AM EDT
Depending on the material used (in the IED) you would need a pretty stout magnet, example: If you have ever had an MRI, you have probably heard the admonitions to remove metallic objects, the MRI contains a very powerful magnet (often cryogenically cooled) and can indeed launch metallic objects with great force, however, the power required is substantial, and an IED would not necessarily have any ferrous materials that would readily react with a normal magnetic field. There are other ways to go after IED's but will not go into details.

That being said, I would never discourage anyone who has an idea, run it by DARPA perhaps?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:49:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 4:51:31 AM EDT by JIMBEAM]
I do some UXO/ MEC work for an engineering firm.

I think the field required to move an IED would be huge. I would be easier to block/jam the radio or cell phones used to initiate the IED. Not sure what can be done on a command detonated IED. We (my company) looked at using a water jet to disrupt an IED once IDed but didn't pursue the solicitattion (we don't do R&D).

We do have some former EOD types here they would probably know.

Of course the bad guys could just change their methods and use the magnetic field to trigger the IED.


It seems that aerial recon of the roads would allow us to kill the guys placing IED at night at least on the major routes.


Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:57:55 AM EDT
Probably not ... working with MRI machines all day, we have a nice 7T magnet to play with. To get anything with a decent field strength, you're going to have to get a superconducting magnet - probably not too feasible in that environment. Those things also don't come up to field at the flick of a switch and I don't think you could get a resisitive magnet with enough field strength. One other thing you would soon discover is that field pretty much goes everywhere and you'd probably need one heck of an active shielding implementation (if it were even possible) to keep the field where you wanted it. But in the end, you'd never be able to get the field out far enough to prove useful for moving objects - and it would really suck if you had your field the wrong direction.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:03:03 AM EDT
They're already testing some very "interesting" anti-IED toys.

Kharn
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:04:22 AM EDT
My solution is to kill the fuckers laying the IEDs. Good luck with your work and project, sounds like important work.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:14:14 AM EDT
In order for this to work, the IED's would have to be magnetically charged the same as the field being put out. For example, if you had a north magnet pointing towards the road, a large north field could cause the device to move. Even if this were true, getting the pole alignment wrong would attract the devices. Sorry, I don't think this idea would work in any case.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:20:34 AM EDT
I got an idea,

A few old plows, armor them, make them robotic and drive them down the road tearing the shit out of the shoulder and so on.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:37:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kharn:
They're already testing some very "interesting" anti-IED toys.

Kharn



+1.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:40:47 AM EDT
Sorry, I'd think it'd pick up way too much junk and litter laying around before it'd help with IEDs.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:43:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By qwijibo:
In order for this to work, the IED's would have to be magnetically charged the same as the field being put out. For example, if you had a north magnet pointing towards the road, a large north field could cause the device to move. Even if this were true, getting the pole alignment wrong would attract the devices. Sorry, I don't think this idea would work in any case.



Any magnetic object will be attracted to a magnetized object because it is temporarily magnetized by the field of the magnet. You can't then repel it, though, because as soon as you switch the field of the (electro)magnet, the induced magnetization on the magnetic object reverses also.

Even repelling one magnetized object with another is difficult. You have to apply force directly away, with no lateral force at all. Any lateral force makes one object spin around so that the two objects are aligned north-to-south (i.e. attracted).

So in short, no, it wouldn't work even if the IEDs were magnetic or magnetized.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:44:15 AM EDT
Or we could just turn the policing of Iraq over to the Iraqis, get the fuck out of there, and go hit a worthwile target like north korea, iran, or saudi arabia -- You know, the places that STILL support terrorists.


I HATE having the US be the worlds police force. If we need to go kick some asses, fine, lets go kick some asses. But afterwards, lets not stick around for years and years. Implement some "We'll help you get your shit together but we're out of here starting in 18 months, last unit will be gone in 2 years" type policy.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:49:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
Or we could just turn the policing of Iraq over to the Iraqis, get the fuck out of there, and go hit a worthwile target like north korea, iran, or saudi arabia -- You know, the places that STILL support terrorists.


I HATE having the US be the worlds police force. If we need to go kick some asses, fine, lets go kick some asses. But afterwards, lets not stick around for years and years. Implement some "We'll help you get your shit together but we're out of here starting in 18 months, last unit will be gone in 2 years" type policy.



Like Bosnia? How many years now.

We stay the course and establish the government in Iraq.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:00:08 AM EDT
I have a good idea for clearing the road sides. How about low level insurgent work details. Line them up on each side of a road with a security team and make them clean up the road sides.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:09:02 AM EDT
I say we take all of the POW's and have them "escort" our people through the streets. This way should an IED be placed at least there will be somebody to take the full impact. This would not be seen as torture since we have no idea that IED's are present. We are simply moving the prisoners from one location to another.



Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:22:01 AM EDT
The IEDs are usually command detonated, that means the bomber could wait until his buddies have passed to detonate it.

Kharn
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:25:41 AM EDT
Cell/ radio scrambler.

CH
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:33:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Flyfishing26:
I say we take all of the POW's and have them "escort" our people through the streets. This way should an IED be placed at least there will be somebody to take the full impact. This would not be seen as torture since we have no idea that IED's are present. We are simply moving the prisoners from one location to another.




Human bodies are not bullet proof and +100lbs of explosives is not going to be hindered by them. You also need to find a way to get them to run at 60mph next of the hummer. If we could figure that out, it would be best used for our troops.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:38:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Flyfishing26:
I say we take all of the POW's and have them "escort" our people through the streets. This way should an IED be placed at least there will be somebody to take the full impact. This would not be seen as torture since we have no idea that IED's are present. We are simply moving the prisoners from one location to another.






To take that idea one step further, what we REALLY should be doing is taking some lessons from Wagemueller in Devil's Guard. I say stack our convoys with POW's and any other combatants and give them all loud speakers and force them to beg over the loudspeakers for the terrorists to not detonate their IED's otherwise they'll blow up their own people.

That, and I say they call open season on ANY vehicle or suspicious looking object stopped along the side of the road. Hit it and blow it up before you even get near it. People would learn real fast.

Unfortunately, the war is too politicized, and twisted by the mainstream media for any legitimate tactics like those to fly.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:46:46 AM EDT
IEDs can be detected, but it is a slow process. If you slow the convoy down enough to have 100% IED detection, the convoy is vulnerable to RPG and small arms hit and run attacks.

One of the reasons for the widespread use of helos in SE Asia was to counter the frequent ambush attacks by the enemy. Our guys on the ground in the sand box are in harms way every day, may God preserve and protect our brave men.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:50:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chaingun:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
Or we could just turn the policing of Iraq over to the Iraqis, get the fuck out of there, and go hit a worthwile target like north korea, iran, or saudi arabia -- You know, the places that STILL support terrorists.


I HATE having the US be the worlds police force. If we need to go kick some asses, fine, lets go kick some asses. But afterwards, lets not stick around for years and years. Implement some "We'll help you get your shit together but we're out of here starting in 18 months, last unit will be gone in 2 years" type policy.



Like Bosnia? How many years now.

We stay the course and establish the government in Iraq.

Yup. It would be utterly pointless to just up and leave, and have to go back in 2-3 years and re-invade an islamic terrorist state all over again.
Planting the seeds of democracy and stability is the long term solution to combatting worldwide terrorism.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:03:28 AM EDT
Most of the mines out there are intentionally made with little to know metal componenets.

See for yourself:
Ordata

The ones made of metal are necessarily made of metal that is magnetic.

IED's aren't always victim initiated. Some are command det, so if there's a guy sitting there watching this machine flinging shit off the side of the road odds are they'll figure out it's purpose and simply work around the very expensive fix to a problem that is always adapting to it's countermeasure.

If this guy is a retired E-7 (what was his MOS?) then he shoudl have a better idea of how to sumbit a proposal like this. If you have his contact information pass this on to him
NAVEODTECHDIV
Commanding Officer
Naval Explosive Ordnance Disposal Technology Division
2008 Stump Neck Road
Indian Head, Maryland 20640

For more information, please call: 301.744.6800 DSN prefix: 354 or please contact us by sending an e-mail to our WebTeam webmaster@eodpoe2.navsea.navy.mil

They're the ones he should probably be talking to.

IMHO is sounds like a dumb idea. IED are placed very specifically based on insrugent/terrorist observation and intel. The best thing to avoid an IED is to practice OPSEC. Don't tell anyone that doesn't need to know where a convoy is going. Vary the routes A LOT!! And have EOD on speed dial.

If it's a known mined area there are plenty of demining machines/devices already in operation. The problem is that region of the world is just saturated with them.

Humanitarian Deming
Do a Google for demining technologies or mine action...
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:03:54 AM EDT
couldn't they just have them set up so when they are lifted into the air by the magnet, the pin is pulled and they explode in mid air and wound everyone then?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:06:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 7:09:49 AM EDT by Torf]
There is no such thing as a "reverse current magnet", or one that repels iron. If you try to reverse the current on an electromagnet, all you are doing is switching the N and S poles of the magnet, BOTH of which attract iron.

Jeez, don't people know how magnets behave?
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:10:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By keving67:
couldn't they just have them set up so when they are lifted into the air by the magnet



No, see my post above (or Torf's).
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:12:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:19:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Torf:
There is no such thing as a "reverse current magnet", or one that repels iron. If you try to reverse the current on an electromagnet, all you are doing is switching the N and S poles of the magnet, BOTH of which attract iron.

Jeez, don't people know how magnets behave?



I saw em' do it in Star trek.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:21:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Absolut-:

Originally Posted By Chaingun:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
Or we could just turn the policing of Iraq over to the Iraqis, get the fuck out of there, and go hit a worthwile target like north korea, iran, or saudi arabia -- You know, the places that STILL support terrorists.


I HATE having the US be the worlds police force. If we need to go kick some asses, fine, lets go kick some asses. But afterwards, lets not stick around for years and years. Implement some "We'll help you get your shit together but we're out of here starting in 18 months, last unit will be gone in 2 years" type policy.



Like Bosnia? How many years now.

We stay the course and establish the government in Iraq.

Yup. It would be utterly pointless to just up and leave, and have to go back in 2-3 years and re-invade an islamic terrorist state all over again.
Planting the seeds of democracy and stability is the long term solution to combatting worldwide terrorism.



Holy Shit

Somebody gets it

now just tell everybody else.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:30:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 7:55:48 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
I am in a unit here that is the leader in detecting and destroying IED's, and GulDuCal is doing the exact same thing in Iraq.

The magnet would not work.... we share the road with other traffic and there is waaaaayyy too much debris alongide.... and the enemy would quickly move to more non-metal construction anyway.

The TTP's and tactics are being written, and equipment is being fielded at a rapid rate. But when it comes down to it, the best tools we have are eyes and armor.

I have never seen the government buy and field equipment on as fast a scale as they are doing to fight this threat, not since WWII at least.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 7:37:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
I have never seen the government buy and field equipment on as fats a scale as they are doing to fight this threat, not since WWII at least.



But....but....the gov't doesn't care about its soldiers....right? That's what I heard on CNN.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 8:29:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PerryF:

Originally Posted By Torf:
There is no such thing as a "reverse current magnet", or one that repels iron. If you try to reverse the current on an electromagnet, all you are doing is switching the N and S poles of the magnet, BOTH of which attract iron. Jeez, don't people know how magnets behave?


I saw em' do it in Star trek.



Yeah... I think the guy who appraoched AvengeR15 probably watched way too much TNG.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 8:43:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:

Originally Posted By PerryF:

Originally Posted By Torf:
There is no such thing as a "reverse current magnet", or one that repels iron. If you try to reverse the current on an electromagnet, all you are doing is switching the N and S poles of the magnet, BOTH of which attract iron. Jeez, don't people know how magnets behave?


I saw em' do it in Star trek.



Yeah... I think the guy who appraoched AvengeR15 probably watched way too much TNG.



Actually, you can repel ferrous substances with a magnet by taking advantage of induced eddy currents.

The biggest issue is that magnetic field density dissipates by the cube root. That means a small amount of distance from the source of magnetic flux would have a GREAT effect on the strength of the repulsion.

I just can't even imagine the current requirements to forcefully move a rigged 155mm shell from far enough of a distance to prevent injury if it explodes. We are talking 10's of thousands of amp and a superconducting coil to carry it.

It would take one hell of a magnet to repel IED's embedded in concrete. As a previous poster stated, many modern explosives (mines esp) are non-magnetic anyhow.

It would be simpler to just kill the bastards planting the mines . . . and their families. Seriously.

Disconnector
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:03:30 AM EDT
Pathfinder74 pretty much summed it up.

I think we really need to get the British jamming units that they use to block cell phones/pagers/etc and we really need to get the anti-HEAT shaped charge system installed on all vehicles pronto. The British are much better than us at this due to their experiences with the IRA.

Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:12:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Pathfinder74 pretty much summed it up.

I think we really need to get the British jamming units that they use to block cell phones/pagers/etc and we really need to get the anti-HEAT shaped charge system installed on all vehicles pronto. The British are much better than us at this due to their experiences with the IRA.




Google "warlock ied"
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:14:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _disconnector_:
I just can't even imagine the current requirements to forcefully move a rigged 155mm shell from far enough of a distance to prevent injury if it explodes. We are talking 10's of thousands of amp and a superconducting coil to carry it. Disconnector



You'd have luck moving an x-wing out of a swamp by pointing your hand at it.


Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Pathfinder74 pretty much summed it up.
I think we really need to get the British jamming units that they use to block cell phones/pagers/etc and we really need to get the anti-HEAT shaped charge system installed on all vehicles pronto. The British are much better than us at this due to their experiences with the IRA.



Our guys have learned a lot since the beginning of the Iraq campaign. It took a few blown up techs to get it through their heads to use the robot on EVERYTHING, but they're doing it now.
We have jammers, but I believe the Brits employ ones capable of jamming something like a city block. If we have those (and I believe we do have them as a truck mounted system) we aren't using them for EOD purposes... yet anyway.

Not everything command det is RF anyway. It isn't too hard to either hard wire it all the way to the initiator, or enough to have reasonable stand-off in the event that electronic counter-measures are used. There's simply no way to emply a counter-measure for every type of IED made. Most of the time, as you've probably seen on videos, the "tactic" is to function the device as designed... only difference being that they get everyone a safe distance away. That will work fine until they start mixing other nasties in with the devices...
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:30:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:35:09 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 9:47:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:

Pathfinder74 pretty much summed it up.
I think we really need to get the British jamming units that they use to block cell phones/pagers/etc and we really need to get the anti-HEAT shaped charge system installed on all vehicles pronto. The British are much better than us at this due to their experiences with the IRA.



Our guys have learned a lot since the beginning of the Iraq campaign. It took a few blown up techs to get it through their heads to use the robot on EVERYTHING, but they're doing it now.
We have jammers, but I believe the Brits employ ones capable of jamming something like a city block. If we have those (and I believe we do have them as a truck mounted system) we aren't using them for EOD purposes... yet anyway.





Link Posted: 8/12/2005 10:35:40 AM EDT
To summarize the reasons why this wouldn't work:

Immensely strong magnet required to move metal at those distances
Other metal items all over the place, from civilian cars to soldier's weapons to the carrying vehicle itself
Simple to make non-magnetic IEDs

Gotta shut down the guys planting them.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 12:28:41 PM EDT

We have jammers, but I believe the Brits employ ones capable of jamming something like a city block. If we have those (and I believe we do have them as a truck mounted system) we aren't using them for EOD purposes... yet anyway.
IIRC, we tried jammers, then the insurgents just set thier bombs to go off when the jamming signal strength got to a certain level.

Kharn
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 12:37:40 PM EDT
The folks here are hard at work on IED Defeat. Contact them with your ideas. Lots of contractors in that Directorate.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 12:38:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kharn:

We have jammers, but I believe the Brits employ ones capable of jamming something like a city block. If we have those (and I believe we do have them as a truck mounted system) we aren't using them for EOD purposes... yet anyway.
IIRC, we tried jammers, then the insurgents just set thier bombs to go off when the jamming signal strength got to a certain level.

Kharn



That's good, that makes those IED's easier to deal with, you can get a really strong transmitter to set them off at a distance or with an aircraft with a strong transmitter.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 12:46:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 12:49:04 PM EDT by 37Victor]
Belmont Club has two excellent posts on this topic. www.fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/ Read the earlier one (The Unstoppable IED ) first and then the newer one (Unintended Consequences) second. In the first post he talks about how our technological development destroyed past "unstoppable" asymmetrical threats. In the newer post he talks about a new technology:

"American Science and Engineering of Billerica, MA received a $9.5 million firm-fixed price contract for eight Z-Backscatter Vans to meet U.S. Central Command requirements for Afghanistan and Iraq. AS&E's Z Backscatter Van (ZBV) is a low-cost, extremely maneuverable screening system built into a commercially available delivery van. The ZBV employs AS&E's patented Z Backscatter technology, which offers photo-like images that reveal contraband that transmission X-rays miss - such as explosives (including car bombs), people and plastic weapons - and provides photo-like imaging for rapid analysis."

"What's new is the ability of these vans to "drive by" whole streets at normal speed and examine each and every vehicle it passes. ... The backscatter X-ray is tuned to organic wavelengths, enabling it to find hidden people and explosive. But this is not all it can do. For an optional extra, the Z-Backscatter Van can also find those pesky dirty bombs and nuclear weapons that every well-managed city wants to be rid of, all at a low price..."

Neat.

Also, our technology is already having a great effect in neutralizing IEDs:

"Brig. Gen. Joseph Votel, head of the Joint Improvised Explosive Device Defeat Task Force said that while the incident rate of IED attacks has gone up, the probability of death per attack has declined from 50% in 2003 to about 18% in early 2005. ... USA Today reported: 'While IED attacks have increased, U.S. casualties from them have gone down. From April 2004 to April 2005, task force spokesman Dick Bridges said, the number of casualties from IED attacks had decreased 45%.'"
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 11:32:37 PM EDT
I was just about to link to those posts at the Belmont Club, 37 Victor. The insurgents' IEDs are becoming less effective, not more. And they're playing an arms race where we have huge advatages in being able to innovate countermeasures, while insurgents can't really improve on making better IEDs, other than make them out of 500 lb aerial bombs now.

The other new gadget is a system placed on the front of a HMMWV. It sends out a laser that produces "leads" for a bolt of electricity to pass along the ground and strike the IED, detonating it. A directed lightning generator, pretty effing cool, huh?

fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2005/08/unstoppable-ied.html
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 11:50:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 11:55:07 PM EDT by Skammy]
Ground Penetrating Radar can locate stuff thats been buried.. I did a report on it for an engy class.. seemed feasible.. It can be used from sattelites or on the ground..
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