You quoted:I didn't think it appropriate to respond in the thread where this occurred, but it piqued my interest.  

God is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.  Sees all, hears all.  But here He seems to be admitting that something not of His will can and does occur.

I've misplaced the exact quote, but some philosopher stated it like this:

If God can prevent evil in the world, and does not, then he is an uncaring God.

If he can prevent evil in the world and would not, then he is a  cruel God.

If he would prevent evil in the world and cannot, why call him God?

I think this is one of the things that causes me the greatest puzzlement about any kind of faith in an all-powerful Creator.  I think it's the same thing that caused schisms in the Church after the Black Death and other plagues.  How can one believe in a God that allows this kind of cruelty?  Especially given that you quote from scripture saying "It ain't [i]my[/i] will that this happens!"  Well then whose will is it, and why didn't you stop it?

because WE FU#KED up in the garden!
everything was cool until Adam and Eve ate the apple.  now bad things happen and people die.

I think I had that explained to me once by the pastor of an Assemblies of God church.  I asked him "If God knows everything, including how the world will end, and presumably when, then why bother?  What's the point of running an experiment when you know (being omnipotent, and omniscient) exactly what will happen and when?  

As he explained it, when Satan was cast out of Heaven, some of the angels went with Satan, some stayed with God, and some were undecided.  So God created Earth and humans to show the angels what happened if they didn't follow God.

I asked the pastor, "So, we're just an exhibition match for the angels?"  He got up and left.

True story.

Angelic conflict?  what the hell is that?
check out:


Genesis 3:16

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 3:17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 3:18thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 3:19in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

or you could just focus on Jesus and find your path to heaven thru him.  this is really our job.  don't be confused or drawn form the gospel by "Christian" ass clowns who waste time trying to figure out "The Great Red Dragon", the virgin and other crap.    

just focus on Jesus.

I don't know.  I've struggled with this my entire life (8 years of Catholic school will do that to you).  

Sounds like a cop out but, at some point, you just have to go on faith.  

We, as finite man, cannot fathom the infinite--it's simply not possible.  God is infinite.  Therefore, cannot fully be understood by man.  I think that is the essence of the so-called "omnipotent" "omniscient" God.  Asking "why" he does this or that is futile.

I think ultimately it comes down to this: The universe, its ultimate rules, laws, and vastness, will never be fully explained.  Science and theoretical physics will account for much of it, and that knowledge will increase exponentially with each generation and man will be able to use most of what he has learned, but will not be able to fathom ALL of it.  We will never know some things--they are truly unexplainable.  THAT is the best argument for God/Supreme Being I can come up with for now.

Whether the bible is the word of God; I have no real idea.  I think in some respects it is a code book for living.  In others, especially the concepts in the New Testament, it's not that simple.  

I mean, the idea of Jesus is staggering alone.  Considering the true historical background (the little that I learned in my "Jesus and the Gospels" class at my Christian college) of the New Testament and how opposed it is to much of the Old Testament, it simply makes me, at least, want to believe that forgiveness and salvation are yours, just ask for it (and mean it of course).  

I'm no bible student or cleric but I think, more and more, that if we all followed Jesus' teachings the world would be heaps better.  

God knows (and I suppose he really does) that I'm not perfect, but I tend to ask him more often to help me with that.  

I think if you really press a priest,  or minister on this and they give an honest answer, they will tell you that you just must believe.

And that is the thing I just cannot bring myself to do.  I'd prefer to think that if there is a God, he just fired up the mechanism and is either watching with disinterest, or walked away to do something else.  

I have other problems with the idea of an omnipotent being creating us to worship him, but this is the fundamental one.

Because God also gave us free will. The ability to choose your own fate, through your own actions and your faith or lack there of.

He tried once to give us everything. A perfect world, and we managed to blow that opportunity. We were to be one with God, on a conversational, first name basis if you will. However in exchange for this perfect world, we were asked to do only one thing, and failed. We now have the opportunity to do just one thing and recieve his grace and love once again, but not in this world. We must first prove ourselves worthy of this gift as we have already shown ourselves to be unworthy.

You see it truely is a matter of faith. Even in the face of pure unbridled evil, we must be strong in our faith.

Um, that's my entire point - God, being God, [i]knew[/i] we'd fail when he created us.  It's all mapped out through Armageddon and beyond.  Like I said, we're apparently an exhibition match for the angels.  I have a problem with that concept.

I see your point, and honestly I do not know how to argue it, so I will not try.

On this matter, I have my position, and you have have yours. Fair enough?

his question was essentially, why is God mean and the pastor he went to tried to schlep some lame story off on an intelligent guy who wouldn't buy it.  this is a problem anytime someone tries to take the bible and make it doctrine.  I have known many theologians.  they are all Pharisees in that they concentrate on interpreting and trying to obey their interpretation of the gospel and the law, they pray loudly in public and give to charity in a noticable way.  I think the church will be better off without them.

and as far as calling me a sheep.  when it comes to my savior I will gladly take the title of sheep or "little child", my style, what can i say, goat skins and wild honey arn't for everyone.

So do I, but that's just an example of putting your finite intellect and logical reasoning on the infinite.  

In a way, we are like dogs.  When we leave for the day, the dog just knows you're gone--he has no idea you drove to work,  used the telephone, burned up the computer, ate lunch, chased the secretary around the desk, picked up the drycleaning, and drove home.  Poof, Dad's home!  Time to eat and play!  (Some don't even think they have a real concept of time.  It may seem like hours to your dog whether your are gone for 10 mins. or 10 hours). The dog can't get the rest of what you did.  Neither can we with God/Supreme Being/Creator/ Divine Force etc.    

IMHO, when Jesus spoke about children perishing, he was NOT talking about mortal death. He was talking about spiritual death.

IMHO, I think that there is an age in a childs life when they CANNOT be held to blame for any sins, as they are truly babes. I believe that this age is about 6-7 years old in most cases.

We should try EVERYONE as an adult after that age...ok, make it 10 years just in case...LOL

If you hear the word of God and truly understand right from wrong, you are now a full-fledged sinner, capable of spiritual death. Some people call it going to hell.

I find absolutely nothing wrong with the statement.

308WOOD...You have the most right idea. Focus on Jesus. It is my opinion that the birth of Jesus made most of the Old Testament sterile and outdated, Everything in it had come to pass and now we have the Savior. The 'religion' of the New Testament is almost purely based on accepting Jesus as Savior, and there is no religion neccesary to be a Christian...I know, fellowship, yada yada yada...you know what I mean.

When you get right down to it, We are having 'fellowship' right here and now =)

Enjoy my clarity. I'm not usually like this =)

Oh, and in regards to the rest of the first post...Philosophers suck...All they do is sit around and think, not do. LOL

Seriously, FREEWILL is the answer to all of the questions...

[red]If God can prevent evil in the world, and does not, then he is an uncaring God.[/red]

Wrong. God cares for us so much that he gave us freewill to use as we want. If there was no freewill, we would be severly oppressed. Evil is caused by evil people using their God-given freewill. For example, Islamics have freewill, so they freely chose to believe in a false prophet (Mohammed). Some people use their freewill to worship cows, some use it to worship money. It's ALL about freewill, the BEST gift from a loving God, well, except for Jesus.

[red]If he can prevent evil in the world and would not, then he is a cruel God.[/red]

Wrong. See above explanation.

[red]If he would prevent evil in the world and cannot, why call him God? [/red]

Same as the first explanation.

I use my freewill to claim that philosophers suck. I may be wrong, I may be right. But in the end, it just don't freaking matter =)

We as humans were given free will and for that we lost the protection of god on this earth.
Fair trade if you ask me.

Here's how I see it:

God gave us free will (as opposed to letting us loose with pre-set, unchanging instinct, like the animals), and also with this gift committed to let us use it or abuse it, as the case may be. However, the other half of free will is that we (as humans) are affected by the consequences of our own collective use (and abuse) of it.

So why didn't he just hard-wire us to do everything right, or step in to stop the fall, etc... Well, God wanted a relationship with us, and any healthy relationship involves both sides choosing to be involved (as any of us who've been in a 'one-sided' one can attest to). And of course, a choice involves at least 2 alternatives - in this case 'know me, and follow me' or 'don't' - or it wouldn't be a choice, it would be a command. So he gave us the choice, and then let us live by the results. And thus we are subjected to the free will of our fellow men, and the positive and negative effects this brings.

God is by nature a being of honor, and he must honor his own commitments. This nature (which provides the answer to the question 'Can God create a rock he can't lift?', with the answer being 'Yes, he can create a rock, promise not to lift it, and be bound by his nature never to lift said rock'.), is also (in some cases) why he does not intervene.

Free will is the key.  God created us to bring ALL of creation back to him.  Because he gave us free will doesn't mean that there is not an end to his patience with us.  He knows what will happen because he knows the breaking point with us.  He knows the point where he's had enough and forces everyone to choose:  God or not.  What happens to the "nots" is open to debate.  Some say they are eternally damned, others say they are "purified" in the lake of fire.

All I know is to accept Jesus the Christ as my saviour and do it as soon as you can.

The other thing to remember is that physical death means nothing to God.  It's the "second" death that is important.  If you aren't written in the Lambs book of life, then you are truely lost...

Here's a couple of things to consider:

1) Exhibition match for angels...I would have a problem with that, too and I don't buy that. The sides have been long chosen and the lines drawn. There are no "undecided" angels mentioned in Scripture.

2) God knew we would sin, but hoped we wouldn't. Think of it like this...

You get married. You know you want a perfect marriage, and you know equally well you won't have one, that conflict will be ineveitable. But you do it anyway, cause you hope for the best. Same with kids. You know that making kids will involve pain, sacrifice, expense and some degreee of trouble. But you do it anyway, because the reward of having your kids turn out well in the end is worth it.

Along the same lines, free will applies. If you want your kids to stay off drugs and out of each other pants, you can either lock them up and never let them out, or you can teach them moral behavior and have faith that they will follow it on their own. They might, or they might not, but it's their choice. How do you feel as a parent when your 16 year old calls you from a party at midnight saying, "Can you come and get me? Things aren't right here." You jump for joy cause your kid made the right choice. What good would it be if you never let them go in the first place? You have proved nothing other than absolute control.

God won't work that way. He is indeed and all loving, all caring, all powerful God, and his very nature is to allow you the choice to follow Him, or follow some other way. Through your choices, you will have the opportunity to decide which is the better way. If that leads you to God, the angels in heaven rejoice. If it leads you away from Him, He will keep the door open, but if you ultimately  get to the end without Him, that was entirely your choice, and you get to deal with the consequences.

Like God, my "will", my desire, is that none of my kids be lost to sin, but it is my job only to show them the way. It is up to them to choose what is right. If they choose wrongly, my heart would break, but I will still love them and still be willing to take them back no matter what they have done. That is the nature of God.

For an excellent examination of this whole subject, let me reccomend that you get a copy of Lee Strobel's book, "A Case for Faith." He deals with your specific question and several others in far better fashion than I am able to here. If you'd like, I have a copy I can send you. It's worth the read...

Do not be deceived by the false prophets urging you to believe in this "Jesus"

The only god is Crom.  You must accept him to have eternal life. All other gods are false, all other people's belief systems are false.  Mine is the only true one.

I know this because I must have the maximum number of people believing the same as I in order for my belief system to have any validity.
The more people who believe as I, the more power I have, the more important I seem, and the better I feel about this belief system I picked out of a hat.  I think all your children should be forced to pledge allegience under Crom in school every morning. If you don't want them to have to do that, I'll say you're unpatriotic and don't desrerve to live in this wonderful country.

Religion is the biggest self-delusionary scam in the history of the world.  Make up any reasons you want for what you think your particular god does or did.  

Sorry, [b]KBaker[/b], but this is my reward for going to bed early last night! [:D]

The others have answered for the Lord as well as any response I could have made.

There may be a whole lot of unanswered questions here on earth, that will clarified in the Next World, provided that you are present and able to ask such questions.

But a Supreme Being that would be of the type that would create lesser beings and endow them with free will, would, IMHO, not be the sort who would rush in and change the physical laws of the universe that He, Himself, had ordained.

That same Supreme Being would view the death of one of these lesser beings in a much different light than we, the lesser beings, view it.

There is no time with the Lord, as we humans mark time.

We are as ignorant of His ways, as your dog or cat is ignorant of the reason it gets shots at the Vet!

Who in heaven knows what that little 5 year old girl must have gone through after her abduction?

The fear, the terror, the injuries, the rape(?), the brutality, the pain, the untimely death.

The Lord does. He knows precisely what one of His creatures experiences when they are bound, and brutalized, and murdered.

[b]He went through it Himself, once upon a time.[/b]

And He goes through it again, every single time one of His creatures is subjected to just that sort of terror.

The sort of terror that might cause you to cry out in agony '[red][b]My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?'[/b][/red]

But the Figure on that cross was not forsaken.

No more than the 5 year old child was forsaken by her Heavenly Father.

But of those matters, we have no earthly idea, nor are we clued in on the matter in the Holy Scriptures.

I myself, believe that when the hour of death is at hand, the Lord will place His Hand between you and the pain, between you and the suffering, between you and the terror of the moment.

The child may scream, but the suffering has already ended, and the child's hand has been touched by the Hand of the Almighty, as she enters into the Gates of the City, led by her Savior and Lord.

Now you will not find [u]that[/u] anywhere in the King James Authorized Bible, nor in any of the others, but you may find it written and understood in the hearts of all those who profess to know Jesus.

So just how does [b]Jesus[/b] react to the death of one of these little ones?

[red][b]'But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.'[/b][/red] Matthew 18:6.

Hmmm, I don't see anything there about mercy, nothing about repentance, nothing about forgiveness, just that it would be better for the offender to die!  And this from the very Author of mercy and forgiveness!

Sounds like [b]Jesus[/b] will deal with those who offend children in any manner in a way that He will not deal with any other sinner!

So, already, we know that the way of [b]Jesus[/b] with children differs from His view of ordinary adults!

And the manner in which He intends to deal with those who offend children in a manner in which He deals with those who may offend adults!

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

KB, et al,

If I insist that your question CAN NOT BE answered, would that be sufficient?

Your philosophical quote is allegorical to the whole predestination quandary.

Free will is only one half of the equation. God’s will and corresponding omnipotence is the real crux of your struggle.  When you can claim to understand the mystery of God, to “place Him in a box” as some say, give me a call. We’ll have to go out and solve all of the rest of the world’s problems.

Equation:

Free will = 1     [known and a given]
God’s will = x  [God only knows, and we’re likely incapable of understanding even if he told us]
Coexist = y       [the mystery of how these can coexist]

1 + x = y      

Solve for x.

That’s my take on the sub. Cheers!
--LS

That's cool! Can I talk to him?

Lee Strobel's book is fantastic, but I suspect the editors butchered it considerably before it went to print. (Essentially what I'd love to ask him)

Once the book gets rolling, there seems to be a decline in objectivity. This deficiency opens the book up to criticism for being written by someone who already believes in Jesus, which I understand as not being true in this case.

Can I call him, huh can  I...  ?!?!?  (jk)

--LS

You are right, religion is a delusionary scam. What we are discussing is not religion. We are picking apart a few topics to make them easier to understand. If you want to add another post, go ahead.

If you want to bitch about 'religion', go find some postings that talk about things like holy water, works vs. faith, prayer shawls, prayer mats, holy hand grenades (lol) and any other material or extracurricular thing that people claim is 'neccesary' for salvation in a legalistic religion.

I will not mince words. Religion IS bad. Faith is AWESOME. If you cannot understand that, you have a twisted concept of Christianity.

magnum_99,

Best fundamental analogy I've heard/read as to our understanding of Gods ways! There are many ways to 'justify' why God does 'this' or 'that', but this will do for my future comparisons. Thanx!

Thank you both for making the point I was trying to make - it's a matter of [i]faith[/i] - you either have it, or you don't.  If you look at the concept of a God from a logical perspective, it just doesn't work.  I do, and I therefore cannot "believe."  Many people have no problem believing, however, and I'm quite alright with that.  All the preaching in the world won't [i]make[/i] me believe.  And faking it is hypocritical.  If there [i]is[/i] a God, he'd know, wouldn't he?

I object, however, to both the religious attempting to force their beliefs on me (regardless of demomination,) and the athiests attempting to force [i]their[/i] beliefs on me.  Recruiting really annoys me.  Am I offended, for example, by the "Under God" line in the Pledge?  No.   I just don't say it.  It wasn't in the original, anyway.  Am I offended by the "In God We Trust" on our money?  Why?  I recognize that I'm in the minority here - most people believe in [i]some[/i] kind of a God.  

Again, my point was to illustrate that if you look at a belief in God from a logical, evidence-based standpoint, it [i]cannot[/i] lead you to faith.  Faith is a non-rational thing.

But it sure is fun to argue about, isn't it?

Post from the DevilsAdvocate -

Careful there, [b]DevilsAdvocate[/b], you're giving away the store by defining 'religion' to mean something that it may not necessarily be!

Paul used the word 'religion' in the very best meaning of that term.

And the Apostle James, as well:

'If any man among you seem to be [b]religious[/b], and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's [b]religion[/b] is vain. James 1:26

'Pure [b]religion[/b] and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.' James 1:27

I know what you mean, to an extent, but the words 'religion' and 'religious' should not be confined to the way that non-believers would have us use them!

My religion [u]is[/u] Christianity. If I am religious at all, it is in a [u]Christian[/u] manner!

Eric The(GiveMeThatOldTimeReligion!)Hun[>]:)]

Post from KBaker -

Wow! Really? When was the last time someone attempted to [b]'force their beliefs'[/b] on you?

I mean 'force'? Is that the correct word? [:D]

Now see, that's the better word to use in this sort of situation - you were 'annoyed', that's all. Not forced, not thrown to the ground, just [u]annoyed[/u].

As I am also annoyed by some of the faithful of many different religions.

Thank God, they got those Hare Krishnas out of the airports! [:D]

Gee, going down the list of things that might offend you, it's a wonder you didn't have a case up before the Supreme Court while you were still a child!

Believing parents, huh?

Eric The(HonestToGod)Hun[>]:)]

The last time in person?  When a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses came to my front door.I don't know, I think when someone comes to you and says "You're going to HELL if you don't believe what I believe," that's an attempt at coercion by threat.  Isn't that legally "force?"  And are we not often told that this is our fate in this very forum?Amen Brother! (Pun intended!)Actually, my parents, while not particularly "religious" do believe in God.  They just didn't "force" me to.  [:D]

Well said! -  Simply put, it's a matter of free will.
If God were to impose HIS will in the daily workings of
our life, we would have no free will of our own, therefore
life would be pointless.

KBaker,

I enjoy your other posts and respect your time on this board far too much to ever use the term "troll", but I have to ask:

If you have already made up your mind as to the valididty of a certain concept and have the predisposed position that nothing will sway you from that view, then why even pose the question?

To do so invites the kind of responses (helpful explanations)that cause you and others to say that someone is trying to force their beliefs upon you. An requested answer to a question which you first asked hardly qualifies as "forced."

I [i]will[/i] say that if you use absolute logic as your framework for belief, you cheat yourself of exploring many of the mysteries of this world, and our universe. Some naturally accepted things just defy logic, but they happen anyway.

Well, [b]KBaker[/b], I suppose that we all have our own definitions of what 'force' may consist of, but simple words, even fighting words, are protected by the First Amendment, as well.

I'm not a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness, but I would never consider chasing them off my front porch with either Glock or broom! [:D]

And 'coercion by threat'? If you're parents told you that the 'boogie man' was gonna get you if you stayed out past dark when you were a child, was a crime committed?

If they told you that [b]today[/b] would you consider it a threat?

So now, if you are not scared spitless by the boogie man, why are you threatened by a God or a Hell that your plainly 'know' is not real?

I say you are going to Hell if you don't vote Republican! [:D]

Eric The(FeelBetter,Now?)Hun[>]:)]

Actually it works perfectly.

Logically and perfectly. (just as God is perfect, but I'm trying not to get all spiritual)

Only our clutch is insufficient to comprehend the logic.

Nevertheless, it all makes sense.

We take many things on faith. Order of magnitude more non spiritual than spiritual.

The path we follow in life follows the amalgamation of the choices, based on our beliefs and values, that we make. You get annoyed when someone tries to make you change paths. That’s understandable.

Jesus _asks_ us to follow him.

He seems pretty cool, so I'm goin his way. See ya down the road sometime, maybe.

--LS

Not to step on any toes, and definitely not to "force" anything, but as a parent I feel that the teaching of Jesus to my son and overcoming his early resistance to going to church on Sundays was the best and most important gift I could give. He is now a man of 20 years old and has a close personal relationship with his Lord...on his own terms.

My father also "forced" us to attend church, he was usually the preacher. I went through a time of rebellion against organized religion but always kept my faith in Jesus and maintained a personal relationship with my God. I constantly thank my Mom and Dad for their firm guidance when I was too young and immature to adequately decide what was right.

Without correct parental teaching and guidance at a young age, young people will find themselves floundering terribly in this world, and will usually make horrendous missteps before they find the path that God intended. It is terribly sad that too many of them never find the "straight and narrow" before it is too late.

Not neccesarily to preach at y'all, just think that it is really important to lead our children and not allow them to willy-nilly try every aberrant trait and affecation in an effort to fill a hole that can only be filled by Jesus and salvation. This is not just my take, God created us to thirst for salvation, to have a need that cannot be met or an itch that cannot be scratched, except by Jesus' love and God's redemption.

Now back to your regularly scheduled attempts to fill an emptyness inside.

Edited to add: What a great 500th post!

Why, thank you!  Because, as I said, arguing about it is fun.  Why else would the religion threads that appear here get so large so fast?  Look at the flip side - the devoutly religious have "made up their minds as to the validity of a certain concept and have the predisposed position that nothing will sway them" and still post on the subject, do they not?  

Was this "trolling?"  Yes, I guess you could say that.  I was looking for a good discussion.  I think we got one.  What do you think?No no no.  You're right - I did ask.  I did not mean to imply that respondents in [i]this[/i] thread were attempting to "force" me to believe.  This thread was an attempt to get those who [i]do[/i] proselytize to consider that what they're doing does irritate some people and why.  (Fully realizing that it won't do any good anyway, thus possibly reinforcing your "Troll" suggestion.)  

In almost [i]every[/i] argument-over-religion thread there are the faithful vs. the unbelievers where the unbelievers ridicule the faithful for ignoring the evidence, and the faithful ridicule the unbelievers for looking at evidence.Well, from my perspective that means we just haven't studied them enough to understand them yet.  "Supernatural" is a null term.  Quantum mechanics defies standard logic.

Again, the point I was trying to make was that you cannot lead someone to faith through [i]logic[/i].  Nor can you use logic to [i]break[/i] someone's faith.  But we keep trying to do that here, it seems.  Perhaps if each side recognizes the futility, the number of these threads will be reduced?  Nah, that'll never happen - they're too much fun!

I generally agree with you, ETH, but I think the use of the word 'religion' in James 1:26, is more to show a pattern of actions that a person does, that end-up being useless because he didnt quite focus on the main subjuct, Faith.

I don't know if that reads well, so just discern it...LOL

My feeling, that to be an actual 'religion', is that the religion imposes rules that require you to do things on a 'human level' in order 'get to heaven' or 'recieve enlightenment' (whatever). This would include praying to Mecca, worshipping idols, praying the same prayer over and over, use of 'holy undergarments', setting a leader up on the same level as a god, etc. This is known as legalism.

IMHO, legalism is contrary to faith, as faith only requires belief, not actions imposed by others.

IMHO, the faith in Christianity is only between you and God. It is not judgeable by others because you didnt pray 'correctly' or tithe 'enough' last year or used Fendi instead of holy water (that should result in a permanent death ...LOL) sorry, I digress.

I know, Im getting WAY out there now. Sorry.

If you WANT to keep this string REALLY hopping (LOL) Try to come-up with a 'religion' of which faith is not mired in legalisms. Good luck.

The OTHER(The should've stopped along time ago) Eric

[b]Amen, Brother wiggy762![/b]

I, too, stepped outside the church when I was young, but, as in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, when I came to my senses I knew that the only house that mattered was my Father's House.

Too bad that I had to break up two marriages in order to come to my senses! My own and the marriage of another.

As my German grandmother used to tell me 'Zo soon old, zo late schmart!'

Eric The(BetterLateThanNeverISuppose)Hun[>]:)]

Doesn't this ignore the millions, if not billions, of people who lead good, moral lives who have [i]not[/i] been "filled by Jesus and salvation."  Many of whom have never [i]heard[/i] of Jesus?

It's this kind of thinking that I find, well, arrogant at best, even though I know that it's not meant that way.  And it's this kind of thinking that leads to the "force" that I referred to earlier.  And it's certainly not limited to the Christians.  But it is certainly the basis of a great deal of conflict, both historically and contemporary.  

And it's one more reason that I cannot "believe."

Post from KBaker -

So what's the big deal about 'good moral lives' if even the heathen can live them?[:D]

Oh I doubt that very many over the past 2,000 years have never heard of Jesus!

He is even mentioned in the Koran, so approximately 2/3 of the world's population have heard the name of Jesus from their holy scriprures.

And the remaining 1/3 has never heard of Him? That is quite absurd!

Well, a lot of folks would think that your thinking is 'arrogant', wouldn't they, but I'll bet that doesn't keep you up late at nights worrying, does it?

Even if it's not meant that way! [:D]

The conflict is totally within the hearts of humans, not with anything mandated by Christ!

Jesus never said conquer anything, or kill anyone on His behalf. But simply to win over the hearts and minds of mankind.

Well, at least you've been offered the choice and refused it, so you're much better off than those 'who have never heard of Jesus' wherever those two or three folks must live!

Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]

Grandma Wiggy's phrase was, "He's climbing fool's hill". Funny, she never used this to describe the female grandkids, just us boys![:D]
Grandpa Wiggy's favorite fit nicely with Grandma's. He would say that,"one boy is a whole boy, two boy's are half a boy, and three boy's are no boys at all"!
Grandpa was a huge fan of practical jokes and his favorite target was my Aunt's husband, Uncle Larry. Uncle Larry was not originally a sporting type but he tried valiantly to become an avid hunter. But in starting at such a late stage in life, Uncle Larry was in for a rough time! On one pheasant hunting occasion, Grandpa was walking along one side of a hedgerow and Uncle larry was walking on the other. A rooster jumped and flew through the hedgerow and Uncle Larry shot just as the rooster disappeared into the foliage. On the other side, the rooster appeared about 30 yards ahead of us and my Dad and I doubled up on him. At the same time Grandpa had turned to us and with a devilish grin, grabbed his face and fell to his knees screaming in pain. Uncle Larry knew that he was the only one that had shot and started crashing through ther hedgerow! By the time he made it over to our side, he had lost his hat and coat and had unloaded and field stripped his shotgun! He dropped to the ground beside Grandpa and was proclaiming his innocense and apologies at the same time when Grandpa smiled up at him and began to laugh!

Edited for brevity:
Good question.  I [i]don't[/i] "know" it.  But threatening me with it isn't going to make me believe that it [i]does[/i] exist, either.  The concept of a fiery Hell certainly post-dates Judaism, but it's a central theme in Christianity.  I find that interesting.  

You're splitting hairs here.  I think you  really understood my point and wanted to ridicule.  Ok, fine with me.

You say you follow Jesus because he's "pretty cool."  (Now [i]that's[/i] flippant.  I do like your sense of humor.)  You obviously don't need the threat of swimming in a lake of fire for eternity to get you to believe.  The Jews don't need a Hell to get them to believe.  But the strongest club the proselytizing Christians have is the threat of an eternity of doing the backstroke in a brimstone bathtub.  And they use it, don't they?

no




yes

This is getting to be fun![i]Heard[/i] of him?  Possibly.  Seen a Bible?  Or a missionary?  That's another question.  What about all those Godless Chinese in the middle of that vast nation?  And what about those followers of Mohammed?  They're all destined for Hell too?Too true!I'm sure we agree about this.  It apparently isn't mandated by Yaweh either.  But wouldn't you concede that a great deal of conflict has come about because humans, in their flawed interpretation, have often concluded that "If the other guy is going to Hell, it's our job to send them there!  God [i]wants[/i] us to!"?Again "hearing" of Jesus doesn't mean you've gotten the full-court press of Christian theology (and which sect?)  Unless you're suggesting that just hearing the name is enough to inspire faith in the Supreme Being in the proper flavor?  (There I go being logical again.)

Thanks



I thought we were talking about man’s will / God’s will.

I agree with you completely that negative proselytizing is ineffective. (Primarily because it is offensive to some) In the same way showing people pictures of dismembered unborn babies is no way to win them over to Pro Life.

It is a tool in the bag. It is used by some and probably works sometimes. It is in no way the only tool.

Sorry if it pisses you off.

--LS

IF God IS God, He can do whatever He chooses.

The fact that we mere mortals cannot understand the mind of God does NOT indicate that God is either mean-spirited, short-sighted or incompetent.

Its indication that we haven't the mental capacity to understand God.

So, it all boils down to faith. Faith to TRUST God's divine plan, tho we can't see the rightness of it.

And God ALONE gives the faith that is necessary to beleive God.

Post from KBaker -

Not so! Judaism had [i][b]Gehenna[/b][/i] long before the Advent of Christ! The central dispute between the Pharisees and the Saducees was their views on the afterlife and Hades.

I was not ridiculing you in the least, but just as you are no longer frightened by the boogie man because you know that he does not exist, how can you be frightened by a God that you are uncertain even exists?

Yes, following Christ simply for the sake of Christ would be sufficient in my mind, the lake of fire and brimstone must be for the others! Hopefully!

Well, whether they 'need' it or not, it was a part of their teachings long before the Advent of Jesus.

I assume that you have read the accounts of Sheol and Hades in your Hebrew Bible, right?

So what makes you think the Jews didn't 'need' it?

A strong club for some, but, it appears, not for others, eh?

The word 'Gehenna', 'Hades' or 'Hell' appears 23 times in the New Testament, 15 of which times it was spoken by Jesus.

I would say that Jesus believes in 'Hell', wouldn't you?

BTW, the words 'Gehenna', 'Sheol', 'Hades', or 'Hell' appears [b]32[/b] times in the Old Testament, beginning in the Torah, at Deuteronomy 32:22, it is written:

'For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.'

And it is spoken by the Lord.

Hmmm, like Father, like Son, eh?

Eric The(ReallyCool)Hun[>]:)]

But He doesn't "give" it to everybody, does he?  Even the ones, as ETH points out, who've been exposed to the full recruiting effort.