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6/2/2020 2:34:59 PM
Posted: 12/8/2002 10:18:26 AM EDT
I just stumbled onto this board. I posted this same question on another non leo board. I am in the process of selecting a new duty weapon for my department, and am looking for input from leo's on what they carry, and the problems or lack there of that they have had with specific weapons. We are currently carrying Glock 23's but due to there age it's time to replace them.One more thing we are a small municipality, which equals small budget.

              Stay Safe
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 11:50:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 12:41:51 PM EDT
I'd say Sig P220 .45  No faults with mine. goes through anything and still shoots.
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 12:55:14 PM EDT
The Glock's are six years old. No major failures, just small things like mag springs.(my guys tend to leave there mags filled, and don't rotate the ammo often) I have a couple of Officer's with big hands, and during quals., they have complained about the "feel" of the 23. I'm thinking of issuing both the 22 and 23, or adopting a list of acceptable duty weapons, and letting the officer's decide what is comfortable for them. If we go the Glock route we will trade the old 23's in.
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 1:59:08 AM EDT
Glock 21 is the way to go...45 caliber, high magazine capacity, what more could one ask for?
Link Posted: 12/9/2002 7:51:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/10/2002 8:31:23 PM EDT
If you have had good luck overall with the Glock 23, I would stick with it for an issued weapon.  If some people don't like it, adopt an alternate weapons policy where you establish a list of acceptable manufacturers and calibers that officers can purchase themselves and carry.  That way your department doesn't have to buy a number of different guns.  If the 23's aren't breaking, I wouldn't replace them.  I would send them a few at a time to Glock to get refurbished if you think they are starting to get long in the tooth.

I would avoid the Glock 21 as a general issue weapon, as well as the Sig P220.  My agency used to issue the Sig P220, and they just didn't stand up well to the beating.  Slides and locking inserts would crack and reliability went to hell.  Many of them would also not feed the Gold Dot hollowpoints we issued for a while, prompting an ammo change.  We then went to the Glock 21 for an issue pistol with the Glock 19 being an option.  The Glock 21 is simply too big for many officers' hands, and they have trouble qualifying with it.  
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 4:11:35 AM EDT
I shot a Smith 4026 for the first couple of years in law enforcement. [puke]
I kept shooting 102's and 104's put of 120.
I bought a Glock 22 and shot a 120/120 first time.I wouldn't shoot anything else.I LOVE my combat tupperware!!
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 4:52:20 PM EDT
I agree with Sparky about the 21's. You have to look at the over all department.

We issue the Beretta 96. I am one of the Range Masters/armorers for these guns. Over the last 6 years we have been using them we have had VERY few things break on them. Mostly it is the grip bushings coming unstaked. Having said that I must tell you I wish that we had gone with something else. The Beretta is reliable as all hell but is a pain to teach people to shoot well with. I can take a new shooter to the range and give him/her a Glock or a Sig and get them shooting good in half the time it takes to get someone up to the same level with the Beretta. I think the Vertek (sp?) models may help in this area as the biggest hurdle is the long ass trigger pull, but we do not have any of those. The Beretta is big and heavy. Most of our detectives carry one of the Glocks. Only detectives and admin can carry an alternate gun. Everyone in uniform must carry the Beretta.

Depending on admins attitude toward letting the guys carry what they want I would suggest the following: Keep the Glocks and allow the troops to carry what they want off of an approved list. This way everyone is happy and uses what he/she is most comfortable and confident with.

One of the PD's in my area does this. They issue the Glock 23/22 but have a short list of approved guns. The main concern for them is ammo. They, like my agency, carry and shoot the same ammo. We do not have training ammo just duty. We run several ranges every month and the guys can shoot as often as they can make it to the range. The PD made it policy that only .40 S&W guns are approved so that they did not have to buy different ammo and go through that budget/logistics nightmare.

Just a little food for thought.
Link Posted: 12/17/2002 5:05:49 PM EDT
The Sheriff's office I may or may not be a part of here gives out duty weapons (most of which I woulnd't give to someone I hated) but has a very large list od duty weapons that is always growing, you just have to qualify with it before DUTY carry.  off-duty they don't care buy you are expected to carry.
Link Posted: 12/18/2002 2:40:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 7:25:44 PM EDT
Let's forget about guns for a second and think about duty footwear.  Supppose you went to the Chief with this proposal: "Chief, I've averaged the foot size of every officer on the department and we can save a ton of money by just ordering footwear in that size."

You'd be laughed out of the Chief's office with good reason.  There is no way that one size can fit every officer on your department.  For some it will be too small, others will find it too big and in some cases, the size problem will be so significant that it affects job performance.

This is the exact same problem that you find when you try to standardize on ONE size of duty weapon.  There is no way that one pistol can fit every officer, especially with the rise of female officers.

I'd highly recommend an "approved list" of duty weapons from major manufacturers and allowing your officers to choose a weapon from that list.  This ensures that officers are invested in their weapon selection and will likely choose a weapon that fits their hand.

If this seems logistically impossible, I'd look at the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Dept.  The agency has roughly 2000 officers and allows all of them to choose their duty weapon and caliber (9, 40, or 45) with great success.  They do have weapon they will issue officers that won't buy a duty weapon but it is a second generation S&W.

At the least, you can standardize on a weapon system and allow your officers to pick one model.  For instance, my agency requires that you carry a Sig classic.  The particular model, 220, 225, 226, 228, 229, 230, 232, 239, or 245 is up to you and you pick the caliber (9, 40, or 45).  This allows our armoers to only know one weapons systems but allows us to accomadate concerns such as hand size.

Forcing officer to use only one weapon is a waste of resources as it is impossible for one weapon to fit all officers.  Give 'em some choice and they'll perform better.
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 6:37:38 AM EDT
I don't agree with issuing one standard duty weapon. It does have some strong points, though. My agency issues standard weapons. Before we went to issued weapon, some officers carried some really crappy handguns, though, and issued weapons fixed that.

We issue the P229 in .40. It is a very good compromise between all of the factors you are going to have to consider. They are extremely reliable, more or less concealable (I manage okay), are chambered in a decent caliber and have an adequate number of rounds (12). They are a little pricier than other weapons, and magazines run close to $40 (compared with $18 for Glock mags). Another benefit of having one standard weapon is the ability to do Simunitions training, which is a mandatory part of firearms qualification here. The logistics of having individual weapons can make that pretty difficult. I know; I am responsible for setting up our Sims training and we are starting to train other local agencies, and none of them have issued weapons.

Glock 21s are just too big, and have some minor reliability problems I have noted. We issue P220s as a tactical pistol for SWAT, and they seem to have some issues with parts breaking here and there and I wouldn't trust Patrol Troops to keep them maintained properly.

Link Posted: 12/25/2002 8:37:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 12:16:58 PM EDT
I work for a large dept (2000+ sworn).  Our department has a matrix for firearms: it has to be some form of DA (Glocks are included), have some form of a safety, and be either 9, 40, 45, or .357.  Our department is cheap, so if you want something other than a Colt .357 you have to spring for your own.

Off duty or backup guns have the same requirements, but they include .380s as well.  However, we are allowed only two weapons total (primary and backup).  I guess the dept. is afraid of "throwdowns" but I have never heard of anyone doing something like that.  It would be nice to carry a small derringer or somesuch.
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 9:23:39 PM EDT
1.A small municipality would probably be easier to train the use of a new weapon.
2.The argument that you would have to change holsters shouldn't be an issue because you shouldn't retire w/the same holster that you came on the job with. So at least it would guarantee that you get a new holster.
3.More than 1 caliber type of handgun for duty does pose a problem w/ammo for training and duty purposes. Unless each officer is responsible to replenish own supply.
4.More than 1 mfg and the armorer has to be trained in every mfg that would be approved.
If you didn't have any problems w/G23, stick w/it.
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 3:02:28 AM EDT
I'll chime in on holsters, too...

My experience is that a duty holdter doesn't last more than about three years before it gets beat up enough that it either doesn't function or looks unprofessional, so changing holsters shouldn't be any sort of issue. Heck, I got stuck with a Level III holster because my Level II fell apart (externally-it still held a weapon secure) just before qualification, and supply was out Level IIs. We also make folks qualify with the holster they carry, and they have to re-qualify any time they make changes to their weapon or holster (new grips and so so on).
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 6:38:03 AM EDT
I work in a metro unit with four different agencies.  Our department issues Sigs in 9mm and 40.  They issued the 45 in the past but only a few still carry it.  Depending on the officer they can get whichever model that will fit them best.  Backups are allowed after completion of a backup qualification course.  Two other agencies issue the Glock 21.  One will allow the model 22 if it fits the officers hand better and they allow backups also.  The other only issues the 21 and does not allow backups.  The last agency issues the HK USP 40 and allows backups.  
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 11:42:03 AM EDT
we were carrying berettas the 92 to be exact and let me tell you they are junk 100% junk failure to feed ,failure to fire ,stovepipes accidental discharges the list goes on.....we have since gone to the glock 22 like just about everyone else in s.c. my personal choice .40 cal 22 glock with a backup 27 nothing finer ...i saw some horrible service sidearms during my stay at the scja. berettas sigmas s&w of all makes the only thing that didnt have problems were the h&K usp and the glock all others fell by the wayside the only semi auto to grace my closet any more is the glock and h&k usp ...
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 2:46:15 PM EDT
Did the HK USP have any problems w/AD?
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 8:32:55 AM EDT
Thanks for all of your input. I have decided to issue either the Glock 22 or 23, and make available a list of acceptable alternative duty weapons for officers who wish to carry a personally owned duty weapon.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 9:40:16 PM EDT
We are in the process of obtaining new guns. We have gone through two models of Berettas over the past 10 years. Centurians and Brigadiers. They are big, heavy and we break trigger springs and locking blocks as the guns get older. The G22 and G23 are our choice. In reality, most of the shooters liked the G22 better in actual shooting. We are just waiting for our funding. The holsters are the SLS and the Raptor. I like both but prefer the level 3 Raptor.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 6:10:35 AM EDT
We have had no problems whatsoever with our 229's. Perfect size for off duty, and a adequate caliber. Might be a little pricey to start, but will hold up better that less expensive pistols...
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