User Panel
Posted: 4/2/2006 10:57:13 AM EDT
F-4 Phantom (1960s and '70s)
F-14 Tomcat (1970s, '80s, and '90s) F-18 Super Hornet (1990s-present) Poll coming. |
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What you are positing doesn't make sense. You ask what the best for its era then only show one aircraft for each era. If my choice for the 60s is aircraft A and no other, then how can I choose? What is the best aircraft for its era, the F18 or????? Or what?
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Was the F-4 better in its era than the F-14 during the '80s and '90s? In other words, we all know that newer machines generally are better machines (otherwise we'd still be flying Corsairs and Mustangs). So, to make it fair, rather than comparing the three aircraft head-to-head, I'm basically asking, was the Navy better off with F-4s in the '60s and '70s, with F-14s in the '80s and '90s, or the F-18 today? |
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Why compare apples to oranges? The F-4 and F/A-18 are a valid comparison, but the F-14 has nothing in common with either. The "bombcat" variant was a joke compared to the ground attack abilities of the other two, and it came long after the "era" of the F-14 was over. Why not have a poll comparing the B-52 to the F-15E, it would be about as valid.
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Then I guess it's safe to say you won't be voting for the the Tomcat. |
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+1 |
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F-4 is a good multi-role aircraft, and looks cool, but it is slaughtered in the ground attack role by the Buccaneers.
NTM |
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Eh? |
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What do you mean by this? |
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The F4's engines trailed smoke which was hated by the pilots (and weapons officers). 5sub |
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super bug. no other carrier based jet, and only a few land based jets on earth can touch it. no other jet on the list had that kind of supeority compared to the rest of the world
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One of the more interesting polls I've seen posted here, but this is a tough one to determine...
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You're saying that the F-4 was less superior in the '60s and '70s than the Super Bug is today? |
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The F-4 could soak up tremendous amounts of damage. A lowly fucking SAM brought down a Super Hornet in "Behind Enemy Lines", the F-4 woulda, shrugged that shit off, and atleast got its pilots "feet wet".
The F-4 series, put more smoke on badguys, brought down more fighters, and has stayed aloft, longer than any other fighter. When/If the Super Hornet gets to 50, while still in service, then I might reconsider, but I still dont see it bringing down the number of aircraft, and dropping the amount of ordinance. |
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I wonder how many kills worldwide the F-4 series has to its credit.
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Between the US, Israel, Germany, and other, its gotta be in the 300-500 range, atleast.
CFII, git yur ass in here. |
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You're all off target. The single most greatest carrier born fighter to be flown by the US Navy is the Grumman HELLCAT. The kill numbers it put up were incredible. I would have to poke around to find it but I think KILL wise it did better than any other fighter of the war. More poking but if memory serves I also saw somewhere it got 2/3rds of ALL kills in the pacific. There are a couple of myths about this aircraft. One was it was designed to counter the Japenese Zero. Not true. It was on the drawing board already when the performance of the German planes became apparent. Another myth was that the corsair was faster. This one remains very popular today. Both were about the same size, weight, and had the same engine and propeller. But somehow no one seems to question why the corsair had a listed speed of 417mph and the hellcat only 386. The Navy delivered a corsair to Grumman and told them to make up the speed difference during the war. Grumman found that the two planes utilized different air speed indicating systems. When both planes were in stabilized formation flying at the EXACT SAME SPEED the corsair airspeed indicater always showed a 22 knot advantage. So, they utilized the same airspeed indicating system found on the corsair and lo and behold no more 22 knot advantage. Since they did not make a public service announcement, to this day everyone "knows" the Corsair was faster. Nicknames for the Hellcat were, THE GRINNING MONSTER, and , THE ACE MAKER...Hog
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No, we just read all of the words in the poll. (Hint: Of it's era!) |
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Blackburn Buccanneer: Banana Bomber. Kindof the British counterpart to the A-6 Intruder, but better. Carrier-borne bomber known for a massively long range and superior low-level flying abilities. Only used by Brits and South Africans. Withdrawn in the 1990s. NTM |
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For its "era", in this case World War II, the Grumman Hellcat was the most influential fighter. Take a look at the numbers in the Fleet, the huge numbers of Japanese aircraft destroyed by Hellcat pilots and the overall effect on the Japanese and you will see why I picked that weapon system over all the others.
Not to say they aren't all very good...but the Hellcat REALLY did the job. And yes...I know you only mentioned "jets"...but I picked the big Hellcat anyway. |
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Grumman F6F Hellcat read below:
History: After early US Navy experience in the Pacific in the early months of WWII, and after consultation with Allied air forces in the European theater, Grumman began to develop a successor to their Wildcat fighter, to be called the Hellcat. Major design changes from the Wildcat included a low-mounted wing, wider landing gear which retracted into the wings, more powerful engine, improved cockpit armor plating, and increased ammunition capacity. The Navy ordered four prototypes of the new airplane, each with a different engine for test and evaluation purposes. Less than a year later, on 26 June 1942, the first prototype (the XF6F-1, with a Wright R-2600 Cyclone engine) flew for the first time. Before much meaningful evaluation of the various engines could be made, however, the Navy decided to press the Hellcat into production by fitting the XF6F-1 prototype with the most powerful engine available, the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp. (This turned it into an XF6F-3. The XF6F-2 and XF6F-4 were never evaluated.) The first production model, the F6F-3, first flew in October 1942, and deliveries began four months later with squadron VF-9 on the USS Essex in the Pacific. Extremely robust, powerful and maneuverable, the Hellcat was a potent force against the Japanese, and was credited with over three-quarters of the US Navy's air-to-air kills in the war. The UK's Fleet Air Arm received 252 F6F-3s (designated Gannet Mk I) beginning in 1943. Meanwhile, in the US, over 200 Hellcats were modified as radar-equipped night fighters. During the F6F-3 production run, which lasted until April 1944, Grumman had developed an improved Hellcat, the F6F-5, which utilized a redesigned engine cowl, new ailerons, a strengthened tail, and a water-injection system for the engine, which added 10% to the takeoff performance and increased its armament-carrying capabilities. The F6F-5 was first flown on 4 April 1944, and production continued through November 1945. Over 900 more "Dash-5" Hellcats were delivered to the UK under the Lend-Lease program under the designation Hellcat Mk II. Nicknames: Ace-Maker Specifications (F6F-5): Engine: 2000hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800-10W Double Wasp 18-cylinder radial piston engine Weight: Empty 9150 lbs., Max Takeoff 15,410 lbs. Wing Span: 42ft. 10in. Length: 33ft. 7in. Height: 13ft. 6in. Performance: Maximum Speed at 23,500 ft: 380mph Cruising Speed at 6,000 ft: 168mph Ceiling: 37,300 ft Range: 1,530 miles with 150-gallon drop tank Armament: Six 12.7mm (0.5 inch) wing-mounted machine guns Two 1,000-lb bombs, or six 127mm (5-inch) rockets Number Built: 12,275 Number Still Airworthy: 7 This is a true shame |
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The Mighty EP-3E ARIES has more kills than the F-18E/F... so I chose other
Top_Prop (former EP-3E driver) |
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I guess I could point out 417-386= a number greater than 22 knots. Aerodynamics plays a role in top speed. Also I kinda doubt the same propeller theory is true. Why does the Corsair have the "gull wings"? |
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Ground clearance for the big prop, isn't it? NTM |
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Yup, that hog guy musta been a space shuttle doorgunner.
Behind enemy lines was a fucking movie. SAM's brought down plenty of F-4's. I'm partial to the looks of the A-4 but I gotta go with the F-14. It was the top in it's time. The F-4 was not the best jet in its era. |
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F4. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.
The F14 has never been truly tested, and never will. The F18 is a fine aircraft, but its not the phantom. Long live the Phantom II. |
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What was the best all around carrier borne jet from the late 50s to early 70s then? |
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Its a fucking joke. BEL is one of the movies that arfcommers love to make fun of, hence why I put it in my post. Anywho, my thoughts on the F4 still stands. They could take lots of battle damage, and either bring its crew home, or, in the Navy's case, get them to the safety of the ocean. Of course SAMs brought down F4s, did you ever think of the technoloigy gap? As CFII said, the F-14 was never truly tested in ferocious air to air or ground combat, and chances are, the F-18E never will either. Air Superiority Intercepter Fleet Defender Tactical Bomber CoIn Recon CAP WW/Ironhand Air Support Anti-Shipping I'm sure there are others, but I cant thnk of anymore. |
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When judging carrier borne aircraft of an era you have to judge it against its competition, such as other aircraft of the era it might go up against and not necessarily carrier borne. The F-14 was better than all of its competition, the F-4 was not. The F-14 was tested in combat in GW1. It so outclassed its rivals it wasn't much of a competition and the bad guys knew to stay on the ground or run for Turkey. |
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Anyone that has seen Top Gun can answer this easy enough...
F14 |
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Please answer my question, what jet from that era was better? The F-14 could be spanked all day long by the Mig-29 and SU-27 in air combat. It couldn't even do ground attack at all during its "era". We built 5000 F-4s, more than ANY other modern aircraft (since the F-86). This poll was about the best ALL AROUND aircraft, the F-14 was a fleet defense interceptor only, not multi-role. |
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And thats exactly where all the F-14 votes are coming from. Who is the toughest buy in the world? Chuck Norris of course. |
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Four words... Never used in combat. |
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The Mig 21 and Mig 17 were more maneuverable and had heavy cannon. The Phantom was outclassed and only the superb US pilots made up the difference.
The F-14 had advanced avionics and weapon systems which made it superior to the SU-27 and Mig 29. |
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And another two...can't maneuver. |
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They also had no radar guided missiles, and couldn't fly in all weather. Nor did they have any ground attack or in flight refueling capability. The F-4 had a much better climb rate, and better missiles, not to mention a vastly superior radar. Here are how "outclassed" we were in Vietnam: Date Pilot Aircraft Service Weapon Kill Country Source 04-Apr-65 Kilgus F-100D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer 04-Apr-65 Unknown F-105 USAF MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer 04-Apr-65 Unknown F-105 USAF MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer 09-Apr-65 Terence Murphy F-4B USN AIM-7 MiG-17 PR China Ronald Fegan USN 17-Jun-65 Louis Page F-4B USN AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel John Smith USN 17-Jun-65 Jack Batson Jr. F-4B USN AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Robert Doremus USN 20-Jun-65 Clint Johnson A-1H USN Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Charlie Hartman A-1H USN Cannon Shared 10-Jul-65 Kenneth Holcombe F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Arthur Clark USAF 10-Jul-65 Thomas Roberts F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Ronald Anderson USAF 20-Jul-65 Unknown F-4 Unknown MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer Unknown Unknown 20-Jul-65 Unknown F-4 Unknown MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer Unknown Unknown 06-Oct-65 Dan McIntyre F-4B USN MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Alan Johnson USN 23-Apr-66 Robert Blake F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel S.W. George USAF 23-Apr-66 Max Cameron F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Robert Evans USAF 26-Apr-66 Paul Gilmore F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel William Smith USAF 29-Apr-66 William Dowell F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Halbert Gossard USAF 29-Apr-66 Larry Keith F-4C USAF Maneouvre MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Robert Bleakly USAF 30-Apr-66 Lawrence Golberg F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Gerald Hardgrave USAF 12-May-66 Wilbur Dudley F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Imants Kringelis USAF 12-May-66 Unknown F-105D USAF MiG-17 PR China Michel 12-Jun-66 Harold Marr F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 12-Jun-66 Harold Marr F-8E USN Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Michel 21-Jun-66 Eugene Chancy F-8E USN Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 21-Jun-66 Phillip Vampatella F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 29-Jun-66 Fred Tracy F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 13-Jul-66 William McQuigan F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Robert Fowler USN 14-Jul-66 William Swender F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Duane Buttell Jr. USAF 14-Jul-66 Ronald Martin F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Richard Krieps USAF 18-Aug-66 Kenneth Blank F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 16-Sep-66 Jerry Jameson F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Douglas Rose USAF 21-Sep-66 Karl Richter F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 21-Sep-66 Fred Wilson F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 09-Oct-66 Richard Bellinger F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel 09-Oct-66 William Patton A-1H USN Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 05-Nov-66 James Tuck F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel John Rabeni Jr. USAF 05-Nov-66 Wilbur Latham F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Klaus Klause USAF 04-Dec-66 Roy Dickey F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 11-Dec-66 Unknown F-4C USAF MiG-17 PR China Unknown USAF 20-Dec-66 Dennis Wisely F-4B USN AIM-7 An-2 N. Vietnam Drendel David Jordan USN 20-Dec-66 David McCrae F-4B USN AIM-7 An-2 N. Vietnam Drendel David Nichols USN 02-Jan-67 Robin Olds F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Charles Clifton USAF 02-Jan-67 Walter Radecker III F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel James Murray III USAF 02-Jan-67 Everett Raspberry Jr. F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Robert Western USAF 02-Jan-67 Ralph Wetterhahn F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Jerry Sharp USAF 02-Jan-67 Philip Combies F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Lee Dutton USAF 02-Jan-67 John Stone F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Clifton Dunnegan Jr. USAF 02-Jan-67 Lawrence Glynn Jr. F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Lawrence Cary USAF 06-Jan-67 Thomas Hirsch F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Roger Strasswimmer USAF 06-Jan-67 Richard Pascoe F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Norman Wells USAF 10-Mar-67 Max Brestel F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 10-Mar-67 Max Brestel F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 26-Mar-67 Robert Scott F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 19-Apr-67 Jack Hunt F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 19-Apr-67 Leo Thorsness F-105F USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Harold Johnson USAF 19-Apr-67 Frederick Tolman F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 19-Apr-67 William Eskew F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 23-Apr-67 Robert Anderson F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Fred Kjer USAF 24-Apr-67 Dennis Wisely F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Gareth Anderson USN 24-Apr-67 Charles Southwick F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel James Laing USN 26-Apr-67 Rolland Moore Jr. F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel James Sears USAF 28-Apr-67 Arthur Dennis F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 28-Apr-67 Harry Higgins F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 30-Apr-67 Thomas Lesan F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 01-May-67 Marshall Wright F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 01-May-67 Theodore Swartz A-4C USN Zuni MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 01-May-67 Robert Dilger F-4C USAF Maneouvre MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Mack Thies USAF 04-May-67 Robin Olds F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel William Lefever USAF 12-May-67 Jacques Suzanne F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 13-May-67 William Kirk F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Stephen Wayne USAF 13-May-67 Fred Haeffner F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Michael Bever USAF 13-May-67 Philip Gast F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 13-May-67 Carl Osborne F-105D USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 13-May-67 Robert Rilling F-105D USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 13-May-67 Maurice Seaver Jr. F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 13-May-67 Charles Couch F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 14-May-67 Samuel Bakke F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Robert Lambert USAF 14-May-67 James Hargrove Jr. F-4C USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Stephen Demuth USAF 14-May-67 James Craig Jr. F-4C USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel James Talley USAF 19-May-67 Paul Speer F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 19-May-67 Joesph Shea F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 19-May-67 Bobby Lee F-8C USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 19-May-67 Phillip Wood F-8C USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 20-May-67 Robert Janca F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel William Roberts Jr. USAF 20-May-67 Robert Titus F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Milan Zimer USAF 20-May-67 John Pardo F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Stephen Wayne USAF 20-May-67 Robin Olds F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Stephen Croker USAF 20-May-67 Robin Olds F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Stephen Croker USAF 20-May-67 Philip Combies F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Daniel Lafferty USAF 22-May-67 Robert Titus F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Milan Zimer USAF 22-May-67 Robert Titus F-4C USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Milan Zimer USAF 03-Jun-67 Ralph Kuster F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 03-Jun-67 Larry Wiggins F-105D USAF AIM-9/Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 05-Jun-67 Durwood Priester F-4C USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel John Pankhurst USAF 05-Jun-67 Richard Pascoe F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Norman Wells USAF 05-Jun-67 Everett Raspberry Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Francis Gullick USAF 21-Jul-67 Marion Isaacks F-8C USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 21-Jul-67 Robert Kirkwood F-8C USN Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 21-Jul-67 Ray Hubbard F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 21-Jul-67 Phil Dempewolf F-8C USN Zuni/Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 10-Aug-67 Guy Freeborn F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Robert Elliot USN 10-Aug-67 Robert Davis F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Gayle Elie USN 23-Aug-67 David Waldrop III F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 23-Aug-67 David Waldrop III F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 18-Oct-67 Ronald Russell F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 24-Oct-67 William Kirk F-4D USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Theodore Bongartz USAF 26-Oct-67 Robert Hickey F-4B USN AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Jeremy Morris USN 26-Oct-67 Larry Cobb F-4D USAF AIM-4 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Alan Lavoy USAF 26-Oct-67 William Gordon III F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel James Monsees USAF 26-Oct-67 John Logeman Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Frederick McCoy II USAF 27-Oct-67 Gene Basel F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 30-Oct-67 Eugene Lund F-4B USN AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel James Borst USN 06-Nov-67 Darell Simmonds F-4D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel George McKinney Jr. USAF 06-Nov-67 Darell Simmonds F-4D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel George McKinney Jr. USAF 14-Dec-67 Richard Wyman F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 17-Dec-67 Doyle Baker F-4D USMC AIM-4 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel John Ryan Jr. USAF 19-Dec-67 Philip Drew F-105F USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel William Wheeler USAF 19-Dec-67 William Dalton F-105F USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel James Graham USAF Joseph Moore F-4D USAF Cannon Shared George McKinney Jr. USAF 03-Jan-68 Clayton Squier F-4D USAF AIM-4 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Michael Muldoon USAF 03-Jan-68 Bernard Bogoslofski F-4D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Richard Huskey USAF 12-Jan-68 Unknown UH-1 CIA Gunfire An-2 N. Vietnam 12-Jan-68 Unknown UH-1 CIA Gunfire An-2 N. Vietnam 18-Jan-68 Kenneth Simonet F-4D USAF AIM-4 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Wayne Smith USAF 05-Feb-68 Robert Hill F-4D USAF AIM-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Bruce Huneke USAF 06-Feb-68 Robert Boles F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Robert Battista USAF 12-Feb-68 Alfred Lang Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Randy Moss USAF 14-Feb-68 David Williams Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel James Feighny Jr. USAF 14-Feb-68 Rex Howerton F-4D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Ted Voigt II USAF 09-May-68 Jack Hefferman F-4J USN MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Frank Schumacher USN 26-Jun-68 Lowell Myers F-8H USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel 09-Jul-68 John Nichols F-8E USN AIM-9/Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 10-Jul-68 Roy Cash F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Joesph Cain USN 19-Jul-68 Unknown Unknown Unknown AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer 29-Jul-68 Guy Cane F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel 01-Aug-68 Norman McCoy F-8H USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel 19-Sep-68 Anthony Nargi F-8C USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel 28-Mar-70 Jerome Beaulier F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Steven Barkley USN 19-Jan-72 Randall Cunningham F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel William Driscoll USN 21-Feb-72 Robert Lodge F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Roger Locher USAF 01-Mar-72 Joesph Kittinger Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Leigh Hodgdon USAF 06-Mar-72 Garry Weigand F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel William Freckleton USN 30-Mar-72 Fredrick Olmstead Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Gerald Volloy USAF 16-Apr-72 Unknown B-52 USAF .50 cal MiG-21 N. Vietnam Toperczer 16-Apr-72 Edward Cherry F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Jeffrey Feinstein USAF 16-Apr-72 James Null F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Michael Vahue USAF 16-Apr-72 Fredrick Olmstead Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Stuart Maas USAF 06-May-72 Jerry Houston F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Kevin Moore USN 06-May-72 Bob Hughes F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Adolph Cruz USN 06-May-72 Kenneth Pettigrew F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Michael McCabe USN 08-May-72 Randall Cunningham F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Willaim Driscoll USN 08-May-72 Barton Crews F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel Keith Jones Jr. USAF 08-May-72 Robert Lodge F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Roger Locher USAF 10-May-72 Michael Connelly F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Thomas Blonski USN 10-May-72 Michael Connelly F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Thomas Blonski USN 10-May-72 Steven Shoemaker F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Keith Crenshaw USN 10-May-72 Randall Cunningham F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Willaim Driscoll USN 10-May-72 Randall Cunningham F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Willaim Driscoll USN 10-May-72 Randall Cunningham F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Willaim Driscoll USN 10-May-72 Ken Cannon F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Roy Morris USN 10-May-72 Curt Dose F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel James McDevitt USN 10-May-72 Richard Ritchie F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Charles DeBellevue USAF 10-May-72 Robert Lodge F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Roger Locher USAF 10-May-72 John Markle F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Stephen Eaves USAF 11-May-72 Steve Nichols F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel James Bell USAF 12-May-72 Wayne Frye F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel James Cooney USAF 18-May-72 Henry Bartholomay F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel Oran Brown USN 18-May-72 Patrick Arwood F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel James Bell USN 23-May-72 Ronald McKeown F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel John Ensch USN 23-May-72 Ronald McKeown F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel John Ensch USN 23-May-72 Lyle Beckers F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel John Huwe USAF 23-May-72 James Beatty Jr. F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel James Sumner USAF 31-May-72 Bruce Leonard Jr. F-4E USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Jeffrey Feinstein USAF 31-May-72 Richard Ritchie F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Lawrence Pettit USAF 02-Jun-72 Philip Handley F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel John Smallwood USAF 11-Jun-72 Foster Teague F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Ralph Howell USN 11-Jun-72 Winston Copeland F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel Donald Bouchoux USN 21-Jun-72 Samuel Flynn F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel William John USN 21-Jun-72 Von Christiansen F-4E USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Kaye Harden USAF 08-Jul-72 Richard Hardy F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Paul Lewinski USAF 08-Jul-72 Richard Ritchie F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Charles DeBellevue USAF 08-Jul-72 Richard Ritchie F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Charles DeBellevue USAF 11-Jul-72 Unknown F-4 Unknown MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer Unknown Unknown 18-Jul-72 Carl Baily F-4D USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Jeffrey Feinstein USAF 19-Jul-72 Unknown F-4 Unknown MiG-21 N. Vietnam Toperczer Unknown Unknown 29-Jul-72 Carl Baily F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Jeffrey Feinstein USAF 29-Jul-72 Gene Taft F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Stanley Imaye USAF 08-Aug-72 Unknown Unknown Unknown MiG-21 N. Vietnam Toperczer 08-Aug-72 Unknown Unknown Unknown MiG-21 N. Vietnam Toperczer 10-Aug-72 Robert Tucker F-4J USN AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Stanley Edens USN 12-Aug-72 Lawrence Richard F-4E USMC AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Michael Ettel USN 15-Aug-72 Fred Sheffler F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Mark Massen USAF 19-Aug-72 Sammy White F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Frank Bettine USAF 28-Aug-72 Richard Ritchie F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Charles DeBellevue USAF 02-Sep-72 Jon Lucas F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel Douglas Malloy USAF 09-Sep-72 Calvin Tibbett F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel William Hargrove USAF 09-Sep-72 John Madden Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-9 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel Charles DeBellevue USAF 09-Sep-72 John Madden Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-9 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel Charles DeBellevue USAF 11-Sep-72 Lee Lassiter F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel John Cummings USN 12-Sep-72 Lyle Beckers F-4E USAF AIM-9/Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Thomas Griffin USAF 12-Sep-72 Gary Retterbush F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Daniel Autrey USAF 12-Sep-72 Michael Mahaffey F-4D USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel George Shields USAF 16-Sep-72 Calvin Tibbett F-4E USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel William Hargrove USAF 05-Oct-72 Richard Coe F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Omri Webb III USAF 06-Oct-72 Gordon Clouser F-4E USAF Maneouvre MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel Cecil Brunson USAF Charles Barton F-4E USAF Maneouvre Shared N. Vietnam Drendel George Watson USAF 08-Oct-72 Gary Retterbush F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Robert Jasperson USAF 12-Oct-72 John Madden Jr. F-4D USAF Maneouvre MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Lawrence Pettit USAF 13-Oct-72 Curtis Westphal F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Jeffrey Feinstein USAF 15-Oct-72 Gary Rubus F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel James Hendrickson USAF 15-Oct-72 Robert Holtz F-4E USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel William Diehl USAF 15-Oct-72 Ivy McCoy Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Fredrick Brown USAF 18-Dec-72 Samuel Turner B-52D USAF .50 cal MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel 21-Dec-72 Gary Sholders F-4D USAF Maneouvre MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Eldon Brinkley USAF 22-Dec-72 James Brunson F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Ralph Pickett USAF 24-Dec-72 Albert Moore B-52D USAF .50 cal MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel 28-Dec-72 Scott Davis F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Geoffrey Ulrich USN 28-Dec-72 Harry McKee Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel John Dubler USAF 07-Jan-73 Paul Howman F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel Lawrence Kullman USAF 12-Jan-73 Victor Kovaleski F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel James Wise USN Please post all the air to air kills the F-14 has. |
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As I said the F-4 was helped by having better trained pilots than the North Vietnamese. Just as the Flying Tigers were.
The F-14 was combat tested but never was involved in a large scale long war, partly because of its superiority over the new battlefields and the improvement of the capability of air power to affect the ground war. |
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Also all the gadgets you attribute ot the F-4 were not reliable back then.
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Look at the list of victories above. Over 90% of them are missile kills, AIM-7 and AIM-9. The USAF E models had cannons from 68-on and they hardly ever even used them. The F-14's claim to fame, the Phoenix missile, was never even used. They used AIM-7s and AIM-9s for all of their ata kills too. What roles did the F-14 excel at that makes it a good "all around" aircraft? Wild Weasel, Ground Attack, Recon (yes, with the TARPs pod), FAC, CAS? Nope, it was a one trick pony. It may be pretty, but if we judged an airplanes merit based solely on looks, the F-16 would be the greatest airplane of all time. Both the "ugly" F-4 and the homely F-18 are great multi-role fighters (both still in service, incidentally). The F-14 just can't compare. |
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1980-1988 doesn't count as a large scale long war? What the hell does? Iranians claim 60-65 Iraqi kills with AIM-54 out of the 285 missiles supplied. US combat use of Phoenix was 0 hits out of two shots. NTM |
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