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Posted: 4/2/2006 10:57:13 AM EDT
F-4 Phantom (1960s and '70s)

F-14 Tomcat (1970s, '80s, and '90s)

F-18 Super Hornet (1990s-present)

Poll coming.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 10:58:58 AM EDT
Finally I am the first one to vote!
FTP
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 10:59:55 AM EDT
What you are positing doesn't make sense. You ask what the best for its era then only show one aircraft for each era. If my choice for the 60s is aircraft A and no other, then how can I choose? What is the best aircraft for its era, the F18 or????? Or what?
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 11:11:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2006 1:41:27 PM EDT by RED_5]
Don't forget the A6!

Link Posted: 4/2/2006 1:26:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By g136653:
What you are positing doesn't make sense. You ask what the best for its era then only show one aircraft for each era. If my choice for the 60s is aircraft A and no other, then how can I choose? What is the best aircraft for its era, the F18 or????? Or what?


Was the F-4 better in its era than the F-14 during the '80s and '90s?

In other words, we all know that newer machines generally are better machines (otherwise we'd still be flying Corsairs and Mustangs). So, to make it fair, rather than comparing the three aircraft head-to-head, I'm basically asking, was the Navy better off with F-4s in the '60s and '70s, with F-14s in the '80s and '90s, or the F-18 today?
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 1:37:55 PM EDT
Why compare apples to oranges? The F-4 and F/A-18 are a valid comparison, but the F-14 has nothing in common with either. The "bombcat" variant was a joke compared to the ground attack abilities of the other two, and it came long after the "era" of the F-14 was over. Why not have a poll comparing the B-52 to the F-15E, it would be about as valid.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 1:42:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chairborne:
Why compare apples to oranges? The F-4 and F/A-18 are a valid comparison, but the F-14 has nothing in common with either. The "bombcat" variant was a joke compared to the ground attack abilities of the other two, and it came long after the "era" of the F-14 was over. Why not have a poll comparing the B-52 to the F-15E, it would be about as valid.


Then I guess it's safe to say you won't be voting for the the Tomcat.

Link Posted: 4/2/2006 1:49:36 PM EDT
I have no technical knowledge on this issue.

But I like the F4.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 1:50:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I have no technical knowledge on this issue.

But I like the F4.



+1
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 1:59:49 PM EDT
F-4 is a good multi-role aircraft, and looks cool, but it is slaughtered in the ground attack role by the Buccaneers.

NTM
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 2:02:48 PM EDT
If the F4 engines had just smoked....................

5sub
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 2:20:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
F-4 is a good multi-role aircraft, and looks cool, but it is slaughtered in the ground attack role by the Buccaneers.


Eh?
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 2:21:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
If the F4 engines had just smoked....


What do you mean by this?
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 2:27:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
If the F4 engines had just smoked....


What do you mean by this?



The F4's engines trailed smoke which was hated by the pilots (and weapons officers).

5sub
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 3:01:11 PM EDT
AC-130
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 3:02:10 PM EDT
F-8 Crusader
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 3:03:29 PM EDT
super bug. no other carrier based jet, and only a few land based jets on earth can touch it. no other jet on the list had that kind of supeority compared to the rest of the world
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 3:05:51 PM EDT
One of the more interesting polls I've seen posted here, but this is a tough one to determine...
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 3:10:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Napoleon_Tanerite:
super bug. no other carrier based jet, and only a few land based jets on earth can touch it. no other jet on the list had that kind of supeority compared to the rest of the world


You're saying that the F-4 was less superior in the '60s and '70s than the Super Bug is today?
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:23:54 PM EDT
The F-4 could soak up tremendous amounts of damage. A lowly fucking SAM brought down a Super Hornet in "Behind Enemy Lines", the F-4 woulda, shrugged that shit off, and atleast got its pilots "feet wet".

The F-4 series, put more smoke on badguys, brought down more fighters, and has stayed aloft, longer than any other fighter. When/If the Super Hornet gets to 50, while still in service, then I might reconsider, but I still dont see it bringing down the number of aircraft, and dropping the amount of ordinance.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:30:32 PM EDT
A-4
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:36:02 PM EDT
I wonder how many kills worldwide the F-4 series has to its credit.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:50:29 PM EDT
Between the US, Israel, Germany, and other, its gotta be in the 300-500 range, atleast.

CFII, git yur ass in here.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:52:30 PM EDT
F-14

Two words -Phoenix missile
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 5:57:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRegulator:
F-8 Crusader



+1 for the last gunfighter.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 6:26:56 PM EDT
You're all off target. The single most greatest carrier born fighter to be flown by the US Navy is the Grumman HELLCAT. The kill numbers it put up were incredible. I would have to poke around to find it but I think KILL wise it did better than any other fighter of the war. More poking but if memory serves I also saw somewhere it got 2/3rds of ALL kills in the pacific. There are a couple of myths about this aircraft. One was it was designed to counter the Japenese Zero. Not true. It was on the drawing board already when the performance of the German planes became apparent. Another myth was that the corsair was faster. This one remains very popular today. Both were about the same size, weight, and had the same engine and propeller. But somehow no one seems to question why the corsair had a listed speed of 417mph and the hellcat only 386. The Navy delivered a corsair to Grumman and told them to make up the speed difference during the war. Grumman found that the two planes utilized different air speed indicating systems. When both planes were in stabilized formation flying at the EXACT SAME SPEED the corsair airspeed indicater always showed a 22 knot advantage. So, they utilized the same airspeed indicating system found on the corsair and lo and behold no more 22 knot advantage. Since they did not make a public service announcement, to this day everyone "knows" the Corsair was faster. Nicknames for the Hellcat were, THE GRINNING MONSTER, and , THE ACE MAKER...Hog
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 6:29:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hogtruckie:
You're all off target...



No, we just read all of the words in the poll. (Hint: Of it's era!)
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:07:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
F-4 is a good multi-role aircraft, and looks cool, but it is slaughtered in the ground attack role by the Buccaneers.


Eh?



Blackburn Buccanneer: Banana Bomber.

Kindof the British counterpart to the A-6 Intruder, but better. Carrier-borne bomber known for a massively long range and superior low-level flying abilities. Only used by Brits and South Africans. Withdrawn in the 1990s.

NTM
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:16:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2006 7:17:55 PM EDT by LWilde]
For its "era", in this case World War II, the Grumman Hellcat was the most influential fighter. Take a look at the numbers in the Fleet, the huge numbers of Japanese aircraft destroyed by Hellcat pilots and the overall effect on the Japanese and you will see why I picked that weapon system over all the others.

Not to say they aren't all very good...but the Hellcat REALLY did the job.

And yes...I know you only mentioned "jets"...but I picked the big Hellcat anyway.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:16:43 PM EDT
Grumman F6F Hellcat read below:

History: After early US Navy experience in the Pacific in the early months of WWII, and after consultation with Allied air forces in the European theater, Grumman began to develop a successor to their Wildcat fighter, to be called the Hellcat. Major design changes from the Wildcat included a low-mounted wing, wider landing gear which retracted into the wings, more powerful engine, improved cockpit armor plating, and increased ammunition capacity.

The Navy ordered four prototypes of the new airplane, each with a different engine for test and evaluation purposes. Less than a year later, on 26 June 1942, the first prototype (the XF6F-1, with a Wright R-2600 Cyclone engine) flew for the first time. Before much meaningful evaluation of the various engines could be made, however, the Navy decided to press the Hellcat into production by fitting the XF6F-1 prototype with the most powerful engine available, the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp. (This turned it into an XF6F-3. The XF6F-2 and XF6F-4 were never evaluated.)

The first production model, the F6F-3, first flew in October 1942, and deliveries began four months later with squadron VF-9 on the USS Essex in the Pacific. Extremely robust, powerful and maneuverable, the Hellcat was a potent force against the Japanese, and was credited with over three-quarters of the US Navy's air-to-air kills in the war.

The UK's Fleet Air Arm received 252 F6F-3s (designated Gannet Mk I) beginning in 1943. Meanwhile, in the US, over 200 Hellcats were modified as radar-equipped night fighters. During the F6F-3 production run, which lasted until April 1944, Grumman had developed an improved Hellcat, the F6F-5, which utilized a redesigned engine cowl, new ailerons, a strengthened tail, and a water-injection system for the engine, which added 10% to the takeoff performance and increased its armament-carrying capabilities. The F6F-5 was first flown on 4 April 1944, and production continued through November 1945. Over 900 more "Dash-5" Hellcats were delivered to the UK under the Lend-Lease program under the designation Hellcat Mk II.

Nicknames: Ace-Maker

Specifications (F6F-5):
Engine: 2000hp Pratt & Whitney R-2800-10W Double Wasp 18-cylinder radial piston engine
Weight: Empty 9150 lbs., Max Takeoff 15,410 lbs.
Wing Span: 42ft. 10in.
Length: 33ft. 7in.
Height: 13ft. 6in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed at 23,500 ft: 380mph
Cruising Speed at 6,000 ft: 168mph
Ceiling: 37,300 ft
Range: 1,530 miles with 150-gallon drop tank
Armament:
Six 12.7mm (0.5 inch) wing-mounted machine guns
Two 1,000-lb bombs, or six 127mm (5-inch) rockets

Number Built: 12,275

Number Still Airworthy: 7 This is a true shame
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:35:52 PM EDT
A4
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:37:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2006 7:37:36 PM EDT by Top_prop]
The Mighty EP-3E ARIES has more kills than the F-18E/F... so I chose other


Top_Prop
(former EP-3E driver)
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 7:47:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hogtruckie:
You're all off target. The single most greatest carrier born fighter to be flown by the US Navy is the Grumman HELLCAT. The kill numbers it put up were incredible. I would have to poke around to find it but I think KILL wise it did better than any other fighter of the war. More poking but if memory serves I also saw somewhere it got 2/3rds of ALL kills in the pacific. There are a couple of myths about this aircraft. One was it was designed to counter the Japenese Zero. Not true. It was on the drawing board already when the performance of the German planes became apparent. Another myth was that the corsair was faster. This one remains very popular today. Both were about the same size, weight, and had the same engine and propeller. But somehow no one seems to question why the corsair had a listed speed of 417mph and the hellcat only 386. The Navy delivered a corsair to Grumman and told them to make up the speed difference during the war. Grumman found that the two planes utilized different air speed indicating systems. When both planes were in stabilized formation flying at the EXACT SAME SPEED the corsair airspeed indicater always showed a 22 knot advantage. So, they utilized the same airspeed indicating system found on the corsair and lo and behold no more 22 knot advantage. Since they did not make a public service announcement, to this day everyone "knows" the Corsair was faster. Nicknames for the Hellcat were, THE GRINNING MONSTER, and , THE ACE MAKER...Hog



I guess I could point out 417-386= a number greater than 22 knots. Aerodynamics plays a role in top speed.

Also I kinda doubt the same propeller theory is true. Why does the Corsair have the "gull wings"?
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 11:08:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Also I kinda doubt the same propeller theory is true. Why does the Corsair have the "gull wings"?



Ground clearance for the big prop, isn't it?

NTM
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 11:33:40 PM EDT
Yup, that hog guy musta been a space shuttle doorgunner.


The F-4 could soak up tremendous amounts of damage. A lowly fucking SAM brought down a Super Hornet in "Behind Enemy Lines", the F-4 woulda, shrugged that shit off, and atleast got its pilots "feet wet".

Behind enemy lines was a fucking movie. SAM's brought down plenty of F-4's.

I'm partial to the looks of the A-4 but I gotta go with the F-14. It was the top in it's time.

The F-4 was not the best jet in its era.

Link Posted: 4/2/2006 11:43:31 PM EDT
F4. Been there, done that, bought the T-shirt.


The F14 has never been truly tested, and never will.

The F18 is a fine aircraft, but its not the phantom.


Long live the Phantom II.
Link Posted: 4/2/2006 11:53:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hughjafj:
Yup, that hog guy musta been a space shuttle doorgunner.


The F-4 could soak up tremendous amounts of damage. A lowly fucking SAM brought down a Super Hornet in "Behind Enemy Lines", the F-4 woulda, shrugged that shit off, and atleast got its pilots "feet wet".

Behind enemy lines was a fucking movie. SAM's brought down plenty of F-4's.

I'm partial to the looks of the A-4 but I gotta go with the F-14. It was the top in it's time.

The F-4 was not the best jet in its era.




What was the best all around carrier borne jet from the late 50s to early 70s then?
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:19:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hughjafj:
Yup, that hog guy musta been a space shuttle doorgunner.


The F-4 could soak up tremendous amounts of damage. A lowly fucking SAM brought down a Super Hornet in "Behind Enemy Lines", the F-4 woulda, shrugged that shit off, and atleast got its pilots "feet wet".

Behind enemy lines was a fucking movie. SAM's brought down plenty of F-4's.

I'm partial to the looks of the A-4 but I gotta go with the F-14. It was the top in it's time.

The F-4 was not the best jet in its era.




Its a fucking joke. BEL is one of the movies that arfcommers love to make fun of, hence why I put it in my post.

Anywho, my thoughts on the F4 still stands. They could take lots of battle damage, and either bring its crew home, or, in the Navy's case, get them to the safety of the ocean.

Of course SAMs brought down F4s, did you ever think of the technoloigy gap? As CFII said, the F-14 was never truly tested in ferocious air to air or ground combat, and chances are, the F-18E never will either.

Air Superiority
Intercepter
Fleet Defender
Tactical Bomber
CoIn
Recon
CAP
WW/Ironhand
Air Support
Anti-Shipping

I'm sure there are others, but I cant thnk of anymore.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:21:21 AM EDT
My vote goes to the F-4...
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:51:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 12:53:38 AM EDT by hughjafj]

What was the best all around carrier borne jet from the late 50s to early 70s then?

When judging carrier borne aircraft of an era you have to judge it against its competition, such as other aircraft of the era it might go up against and not necessarily carrier borne.

The F-14 was better than all of its competition, the F-4 was not.

The F-14 was tested in combat in GW1. It so outclassed its rivals it wasn't much of a competition and the bad guys knew to stay on the ground or run for Turkey.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:56:14 AM EDT
Anyone that has seen Top Gun can answer this easy enough...

F14
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:57:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hughjafj:

What was the best all around carrier borne jet from the late 50s to early 70s then?

When judging carrier borne aircraft of an era you have to judge it against its competition, such as other aircraft of the era it might go up against and not necessarily carrier borne.

The F-14 was better than all of its competition, the F-4 was not.

The F-14 was tested in combat in GW1. It so outclassed its rivals it wasn't much of a competition and the bad guys knew to stay on the ground or run for Turkey.



Please answer my question, what jet from that era was better? The F-14 could be spanked all day long by the Mig-29 and SU-27 in air combat. It couldn't even do ground attack at all during its "era". We built 5000 F-4s, more than ANY other modern aircraft (since the F-86). This poll was about the best ALL AROUND aircraft, the F-14 was a fleet defense interceptor only, not multi-role.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 12:59:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
Anyone that has seen Top Gun can answer this easy enough...

F14



And thats exactly where all the F-14 votes are coming from. Who is the toughest buy in the world? Chuck Norris of course.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:04:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
F-14

Two words -Phoenix missile



Four words...

Never used in combat.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:05:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 1:08:12 AM EDT by hughjafj]
The Mig 21 and Mig 17 were more maneuverable and had heavy cannon. The Phantom was outclassed and only the superb US pilots made up the difference.

The F-14 had advanced avionics and weapon systems which made it superior to the SU-27 and Mig 29.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:06:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tim84K10:

Originally Posted By Sandman67:
F-14

Two words -Phoenix missile



Four words...

Never used in combat.



And another two...can't maneuver.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:11:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hughjafj:
The Mig 21 and Mig 17 were more maneuverable and had heavy cannon. The Phantom was outclassed and only the superb US pilots made up the difference.



They also had no radar guided missiles, and couldn't fly in all weather. Nor did they have any ground attack or in flight refueling capability. The F-4 had a much better climb rate, and better missiles, not to mention a vastly superior radar. Here are how "outclassed" we were in Vietnam:

Date Pilot Aircraft Service Weapon Kill Country Source
04-Apr-65 Kilgus F-100D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer
04-Apr-65 Unknown F-105 USAF MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer
04-Apr-65 Unknown F-105 USAF MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer
09-Apr-65 Terence Murphy F-4B USN AIM-7 MiG-17 PR China
Ronald Fegan USN
17-Jun-65 Louis Page F-4B USN AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
John Smith USN
17-Jun-65 Jack Batson Jr. F-4B USN AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Robert Doremus USN
20-Jun-65 Clint Johnson A-1H USN Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Charlie Hartman A-1H USN Cannon Shared
10-Jul-65 Kenneth Holcombe F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Arthur Clark USAF
10-Jul-65 Thomas Roberts F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Ronald Anderson USAF
20-Jul-65 Unknown F-4 Unknown MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer
Unknown Unknown
20-Jul-65 Unknown F-4 Unknown MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer
Unknown Unknown
06-Oct-65 Dan McIntyre F-4B USN MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Alan Johnson USN
23-Apr-66 Robert Blake F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
S.W. George USAF
23-Apr-66 Max Cameron F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Robert Evans USAF
26-Apr-66 Paul Gilmore F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
William Smith USAF
29-Apr-66 William Dowell F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Halbert Gossard USAF
29-Apr-66 Larry Keith F-4C USAF Maneouvre MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Robert Bleakly USAF
30-Apr-66 Lawrence Golberg F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Gerald Hardgrave USAF
12-May-66 Wilbur Dudley F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Imants Kringelis USAF
12-May-66 Unknown F-105D USAF MiG-17 PR China Michel
12-Jun-66 Harold Marr F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
12-Jun-66 Harold Marr F-8E USN Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Michel
21-Jun-66 Eugene Chancy F-8E USN Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
21-Jun-66 Phillip Vampatella F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
29-Jun-66 Fred Tracy F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
13-Jul-66 William McQuigan F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Robert Fowler USN
14-Jul-66 William Swender F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Duane Buttell Jr. USAF
14-Jul-66 Ronald Martin F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Richard Krieps USAF
18-Aug-66 Kenneth Blank F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
16-Sep-66 Jerry Jameson F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Douglas Rose USAF
21-Sep-66 Karl Richter F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
21-Sep-66 Fred Wilson F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
09-Oct-66 Richard Bellinger F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
09-Oct-66 William Patton A-1H USN Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
05-Nov-66 James Tuck F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
John Rabeni Jr. USAF
05-Nov-66 Wilbur Latham F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Klaus Klause USAF
04-Dec-66 Roy Dickey F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
11-Dec-66 Unknown F-4C USAF MiG-17 PR China
Unknown USAF
20-Dec-66 Dennis Wisely F-4B USN AIM-7 An-2 N. Vietnam Drendel
David Jordan USN
20-Dec-66 David McCrae F-4B USN AIM-7 An-2 N. Vietnam Drendel
David Nichols USN
02-Jan-67 Robin Olds F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Charles Clifton USAF
02-Jan-67 Walter Radecker III F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Murray III USAF
02-Jan-67 Everett Raspberry Jr. F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Robert Western USAF
02-Jan-67 Ralph Wetterhahn F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Jerry Sharp USAF
02-Jan-67 Philip Combies F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Lee Dutton USAF
02-Jan-67 John Stone F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Clifton Dunnegan Jr. USAF
02-Jan-67 Lawrence Glynn Jr. F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Lawrence Cary USAF
06-Jan-67 Thomas Hirsch F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Roger Strasswimmer USAF
06-Jan-67 Richard Pascoe F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Norman Wells USAF
10-Mar-67 Max Brestel F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
10-Mar-67 Max Brestel F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
26-Mar-67 Robert Scott F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
19-Apr-67 Jack Hunt F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
19-Apr-67 Leo Thorsness F-105F USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Harold Johnson USAF
19-Apr-67 Frederick Tolman F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
19-Apr-67 William Eskew F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
23-Apr-67 Robert Anderson F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Fred Kjer USAF
24-Apr-67 Dennis Wisely F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Gareth Anderson USN
24-Apr-67 Charles Southwick F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Laing USN
26-Apr-67 Rolland Moore Jr. F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Sears USAF
28-Apr-67 Arthur Dennis F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
28-Apr-67 Harry Higgins F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
30-Apr-67 Thomas Lesan F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
01-May-67 Marshall Wright F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
01-May-67 Theodore Swartz A-4C USN Zuni MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
01-May-67 Robert Dilger F-4C USAF Maneouvre MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Mack Thies USAF
04-May-67 Robin Olds F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
William Lefever USAF
12-May-67 Jacques Suzanne F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
13-May-67 William Kirk F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Stephen Wayne USAF
13-May-67 Fred Haeffner F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Michael Bever USAF
13-May-67 Philip Gast F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
13-May-67 Carl Osborne F-105D USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
13-May-67 Robert Rilling F-105D USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
13-May-67 Maurice Seaver Jr. F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
13-May-67 Charles Couch F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
14-May-67 Samuel Bakke F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Robert Lambert USAF
14-May-67 James Hargrove Jr. F-4C USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Stephen Demuth USAF
14-May-67 James Craig Jr. F-4C USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Talley USAF
19-May-67 Paul Speer F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
19-May-67 Joesph Shea F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
19-May-67 Bobby Lee F-8C USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
19-May-67 Phillip Wood F-8C USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
20-May-67 Robert Janca F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
William Roberts Jr. USAF
20-May-67 Robert Titus F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Milan Zimer USAF
20-May-67 John Pardo F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Stephen Wayne USAF
20-May-67 Robin Olds F-4C USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Stephen Croker USAF
20-May-67 Robin Olds F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Stephen Croker USAF
20-May-67 Philip Combies F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Daniel Lafferty USAF
22-May-67 Robert Titus F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Milan Zimer USAF
22-May-67 Robert Titus F-4C USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Milan Zimer USAF
03-Jun-67 Ralph Kuster F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
03-Jun-67 Larry Wiggins F-105D USAF AIM-9/Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
05-Jun-67 Durwood Priester F-4C USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
John Pankhurst USAF
05-Jun-67 Richard Pascoe F-4C USAF AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Norman Wells USAF
05-Jun-67 Everett Raspberry Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Francis Gullick USAF
21-Jul-67 Marion Isaacks F-8C USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
21-Jul-67 Robert Kirkwood F-8C USN Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
21-Jul-67 Ray Hubbard F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
21-Jul-67 Phil Dempewolf F-8C USN Zuni/Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
10-Aug-67 Guy Freeborn F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Robert Elliot USN
10-Aug-67 Robert Davis F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Gayle Elie USN
23-Aug-67 David Waldrop III F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
23-Aug-67 David Waldrop III F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
18-Oct-67 Ronald Russell F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
24-Oct-67 William Kirk F-4D USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Theodore Bongartz USAF
26-Oct-67 Robert Hickey F-4B USN AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Jeremy Morris USN
26-Oct-67 Larry Cobb F-4D USAF AIM-4 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Alan Lavoy USAF
26-Oct-67 William Gordon III F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Monsees USAF
26-Oct-67 John Logeman Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Frederick McCoy II USAF
27-Oct-67 Gene Basel F-105D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
30-Oct-67 Eugene Lund F-4B USN AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Borst USN
06-Nov-67 Darell Simmonds F-4D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
George McKinney Jr. USAF
06-Nov-67 Darell Simmonds F-4D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
George McKinney Jr. USAF
14-Dec-67 Richard Wyman F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
17-Dec-67 Doyle Baker F-4D USMC AIM-4 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
John Ryan Jr. USAF
19-Dec-67 Philip Drew F-105F USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
William Wheeler USAF
19-Dec-67 William Dalton F-105F USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Graham USAF
Joseph Moore F-4D USAF Cannon Shared
George McKinney Jr. USAF
03-Jan-68 Clayton Squier F-4D USAF AIM-4 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Michael Muldoon USAF
03-Jan-68 Bernard Bogoslofski F-4D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Richard Huskey USAF
12-Jan-68 Unknown UH-1 CIA Gunfire An-2 N. Vietnam
12-Jan-68 Unknown UH-1 CIA Gunfire An-2 N. Vietnam
18-Jan-68 Kenneth Simonet F-4D USAF AIM-4 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Wayne Smith USAF
05-Feb-68 Robert Hill F-4D USAF AIM-4 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Bruce Huneke USAF
06-Feb-68 Robert Boles F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Robert Battista USAF
12-Feb-68 Alfred Lang Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Randy Moss USAF
14-Feb-68 David Williams Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Feighny Jr. USAF
14-Feb-68 Rex Howerton F-4D USAF Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Ted Voigt II USAF
09-May-68 Jack Hefferman F-4J USN MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Frank Schumacher USN
26-Jun-68 Lowell Myers F-8H USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
09-Jul-68 John Nichols F-8E USN AIM-9/Cannon MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
10-Jul-68 Roy Cash F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Joesph Cain USN
19-Jul-68 Unknown Unknown Unknown AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer
29-Jul-68 Guy Cane F-8E USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
01-Aug-68 Norman McCoy F-8H USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
19-Sep-68 Anthony Nargi F-8C USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
28-Mar-70 Jerome Beaulier F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Steven Barkley USN
19-Jan-72 Randall Cunningham F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
William Driscoll USN
21-Feb-72 Robert Lodge F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Roger Locher USAF
01-Mar-72 Joesph Kittinger Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Leigh Hodgdon USAF
06-Mar-72 Garry Weigand F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
William Freckleton USN
30-Mar-72 Fredrick Olmstead Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Gerald Volloy USAF
16-Apr-72 Unknown B-52 USAF .50 cal MiG-21 N. Vietnam Toperczer
16-Apr-72 Edward Cherry F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Jeffrey Feinstein USAF
16-Apr-72 James Null F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Michael Vahue USAF
16-Apr-72 Fredrick Olmstead Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Stuart Maas USAF
06-May-72 Jerry Houston F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Kevin Moore USN
06-May-72 Bob Hughes F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Adolph Cruz USN
06-May-72 Kenneth Pettigrew F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Michael McCabe USN
08-May-72 Randall Cunningham F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Willaim Driscoll USN
08-May-72 Barton Crews F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel
Keith Jones Jr. USAF
08-May-72 Robert Lodge F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Roger Locher USAF
10-May-72 Michael Connelly F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Thomas Blonski USN
10-May-72 Michael Connelly F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Thomas Blonski USN
10-May-72 Steven Shoemaker F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Keith Crenshaw USN
10-May-72 Randall Cunningham F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Willaim Driscoll USN
10-May-72 Randall Cunningham F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Willaim Driscoll USN
10-May-72 Randall Cunningham F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Willaim Driscoll USN
10-May-72 Ken Cannon F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Roy Morris USN
10-May-72 Curt Dose F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
James McDevitt USN
10-May-72 Richard Ritchie F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Charles DeBellevue USAF
10-May-72 Robert Lodge F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Roger Locher USAF
10-May-72 John Markle F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Stephen Eaves USAF
11-May-72 Steve Nichols F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Bell USAF
12-May-72 Wayne Frye F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Cooney USAF
18-May-72 Henry Bartholomay F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel
Oran Brown USN
18-May-72 Patrick Arwood F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Bell USN
23-May-72 Ronald McKeown F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
John Ensch USN
23-May-72 Ronald McKeown F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
John Ensch USN
23-May-72 Lyle Beckers F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel
John Huwe USAF
23-May-72 James Beatty Jr. F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Sumner USAF
31-May-72 Bruce Leonard Jr. F-4E USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Jeffrey Feinstein USAF
31-May-72 Richard Ritchie F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Lawrence Pettit USAF
02-Jun-72 Philip Handley F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel
John Smallwood USAF
11-Jun-72 Foster Teague F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Ralph Howell USN
11-Jun-72 Winston Copeland F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
Donald Bouchoux USN
21-Jun-72 Samuel Flynn F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
William John USN
21-Jun-72 Von Christiansen F-4E USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Kaye Harden USAF
08-Jul-72 Richard Hardy F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Paul Lewinski USAF
08-Jul-72 Richard Ritchie F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Charles DeBellevue USAF
08-Jul-72 Richard Ritchie F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Charles DeBellevue USAF
11-Jul-72 Unknown F-4 Unknown MiG-17 N. Vietnam Toperczer
Unknown Unknown
18-Jul-72 Carl Baily F-4D USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Jeffrey Feinstein USAF
19-Jul-72 Unknown F-4 Unknown MiG-21 N. Vietnam Toperczer
Unknown Unknown
29-Jul-72 Carl Baily F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Jeffrey Feinstein USAF
29-Jul-72 Gene Taft F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Stanley Imaye USAF
08-Aug-72 Unknown Unknown Unknown MiG-21 N. Vietnam Toperczer
08-Aug-72 Unknown Unknown Unknown MiG-21 N. Vietnam Toperczer
10-Aug-72 Robert Tucker F-4J USN AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Stanley Edens USN
12-Aug-72 Lawrence Richard F-4E USMC AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Michael Ettel USN
15-Aug-72 Fred Sheffler F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Mark Massen USAF
19-Aug-72 Sammy White F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Frank Bettine USAF
28-Aug-72 Richard Ritchie F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Charles DeBellevue USAF
02-Sep-72 Jon Lucas F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel
Douglas Malloy USAF
09-Sep-72 Calvin Tibbett F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
William Hargrove USAF
09-Sep-72 John Madden Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-9 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel
Charles DeBellevue USAF
09-Sep-72 John Madden Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-9 MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel
Charles DeBellevue USAF
11-Sep-72 Lee Lassiter F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
John Cummings USN
12-Sep-72 Lyle Beckers F-4E USAF AIM-9/Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Thomas Griffin USAF
12-Sep-72 Gary Retterbush F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Daniel Autrey USAF
12-Sep-72 Michael Mahaffey F-4D USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
George Shields USAF
16-Sep-72 Calvin Tibbett F-4E USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
William Hargrove USAF
05-Oct-72 Richard Coe F-4E USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Omri Webb III USAF
06-Oct-72 Gordon Clouser F-4E USAF Maneouvre MiG-19 N. Vietnam Drendel
Cecil Brunson USAF
Charles Barton F-4E USAF Maneouvre Shared N. Vietnam Drendel
George Watson USAF
08-Oct-72 Gary Retterbush F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Robert Jasperson USAF
12-Oct-72 John Madden Jr. F-4D USAF Maneouvre MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Lawrence Pettit USAF
13-Oct-72 Curtis Westphal F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Jeffrey Feinstein USAF
15-Oct-72 Gary Rubus F-4E USAF Cannon MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Hendrickson USAF
15-Oct-72 Robert Holtz F-4E USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
William Diehl USAF
15-Oct-72 Ivy McCoy Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Fredrick Brown USAF
18-Dec-72 Samuel Turner B-52D USAF .50 cal MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
21-Dec-72 Gary Sholders F-4D USAF Maneouvre MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Eldon Brinkley USAF
22-Dec-72 James Brunson F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Ralph Pickett USAF
24-Dec-72 Albert Moore B-52D USAF .50 cal MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
28-Dec-72 Scott Davis F-4J USN AIM-9 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Geoffrey Ulrich USN
28-Dec-72 Harry McKee Jr. F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
John Dubler USAF
07-Jan-73 Paul Howman F-4D USAF AIM-7 MiG-21 N. Vietnam Drendel
Lawrence Kullman USAF
12-Jan-73 Victor Kovaleski F-4B USN AIM-9 MiG-17 N. Vietnam Drendel
James Wise USN

Please post all the air to air kills the F-14 has.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:15:47 AM EDT
As I said the F-4 was helped by having better trained pilots than the North Vietnamese. Just as the Flying Tigers were.

The F-14 was combat tested but never was involved in a large scale long war, partly because of its superiority over the new battlefields and the improvement of the capability of air power to affect the ground war.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:21:04 AM EDT
Also all the gadgets you attribute ot the F-4 were not reliable back then.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 1:38:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hughjafj:
Also all the gadgets you attribute ot the F-4 were not reliable back then.



Look at the list of victories above. Over 90% of them are missile kills, AIM-7 and AIM-9. The USAF E models had cannons from 68-on and they hardly ever even used them. The F-14's claim to fame, the Phoenix missile, was never even used. They used AIM-7s and AIM-9s for all of their ata kills too. What roles did the F-14 excel at that makes it a good "all around" aircraft? Wild Weasel, Ground Attack, Recon (yes, with the TARPs pod), FAC, CAS? Nope, it was a one trick pony. It may be pretty, but if we judged an airplanes merit based solely on looks, the F-16 would be the greatest airplane of all time. Both the "ugly" F-4 and the homely F-18 are great multi-role fighters (both still in service, incidentally). The F-14 just can't compare.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 4:32:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2006 4:32:30 AM EDT by Manic_Moran]

Originally Posted By hughjafj:
The F-14 was combat tested but never was involved in a large scale long war, partly because of its superiority over the new battlefields and the improvement of the capability of air power to affect the ground war.



1980-1988 doesn't count as a large scale long war? What the hell does? Iranians claim 60-65 Iraqi kills with AIM-54 out of the 285 missiles supplied.

US combat use of Phoenix was 0 hits out of two shots.

NTM

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