I was wondering about the drop in auto sears that people sell in the shot gun news.  Do they work,what is the legal issues with these,who makes good ones and what is the quality of these units? Would it be wise tostock one of these units for a just in case SHTF event.

IBTL...........Or before the ATF Man gets you, Or are you the ATF

BATF Sting-Illegal

They are not legal unless the seller can provide documentation proving the DIAS was made prior to the ban.  Don't get suckered into buying one.  Just owning one can cost you plenty.

www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

There is a bunch of info on www.quarterbore.com on them and how they work and some of the legalities.  I would not recommend one.  If the SHTF, that means ammo is going to be limited, and there isn't much benefit to spraying ammo when you only have so much of it.  

Thanks for the info. That is kind of what I was thinking.

Quoted: BATF Sting-Illegal

+!

Quoted: Thanks for the info. That is kind of what I was thinking.

If it sounds to good to be true, it is an ATF sting.

From what I read on a couple of other sites, these are not finished products
and wouldn't work as a drop in. So I think technically they are legal.
but who knows . It could very well be a ATF sting that has lasted for about 20 years

read this

www.ar15.com/content/legal/dias.html

In b4 da lok.

I say go for it.

Apparently we are allowed to discuss this stuff now.

I won't do a moderators job for them like some people, but I will say that this type of subject material is bad Ju-Ju.... The SF gets enough negative attention from LE as it is, we don't need any more. You have to understand that the "World's Largest Firearms Website" is going to have it's share of LEO's working it and doing what cops do. Personally, I think we should be able to enjoy what the SF brings to us without additional drama..

IBTL


  read the COC.

Quoted: I won't do a moderators job for them like some people,

Nope me neither. apparently its okay to discuss this stuff.

Bad juju.... Don't even think of it...
#1 You'll be  thrown in jail..
#2 Spray and pray is a supid waste of ammo.  If you want to spray and PLAY buy an airsoft toy BB gun .
#3 SEE #1 above...
KDX

Quoted: IBTL   read the COC.

Some of you guy really love the COC, don't you?


























 


Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Quoted: I was wondering about the drop in auto sears that people sell in the shot gun news.  Do they work,what is the legal issues with these,who makes good ones and what is the quality of these units? Would it be wise tostock one of these units for a just in case SHTF event.

they can work, but some may have issues.

legal ONLY if you DO NOT OWN an AR... and then what's the pont?

"quality" ia really a moot point.

wise? hardly!

at one point, the ad in SGN stated something about sign for it in person when you recieve it, and the company name was "TPF" which reportedly stood for "To Prison Fast"

REGISTERED DIAS units used to be affordable, same part, just with a serial number stamped/engaved on it, and registered before the MG ban in '86

IBTATF




CWO

Quick, the AR15.com nazi's are coming. run to a fertile ground full of open minds before your stuffed in a re-education camp.  Remember, free speech and thought are only OK here if its approved(TM) thought.

IBTL

Why do they post this crap in our/SF

Jesus, the guy was asking an honest question.  HE was more or less asking if SHTF happens if full auto was something to be considered, and I know each and every one of you guys has pondered this at one point or another.  

We know with the current situation of BATF tyranny that the benefits do NOT outweigh the possible consequences of owning such a piece, and I find it hilarious that you guys are all freaking out and calling him a batf plant, etc, over an inert piece of metal.  

Para did not know the legalities of it, and now he does.  He did not need to be insulted over and over again.  

All I am saying is that not everyone that shows up here is as knowledgeable about every freaking law out there as we are, hell I still cannot get it through my parent's heads that the AWB is over, or what it even meant.  Have a little tact.  Every time we run off someone because they ask what you think is a stupid question, we make an enemy of them, and make enemies of ourselves.  Acting like a bunch of elitist jackasses does nothing to help educate people and makes the rest of us look like whacko extremists.

It was an honest question.
Like I said "If it sounds too good to be true, it is the ATF"
Just ask Randy Weaver...
Hey, I'll pay you to saw off my shotgun barrels....

Quoted: It was an honest question. Like I said "If it sounds too good to be true, it is the ATF" Just ask Randy Weaver... Hey, I'll pay you to saw off my shotgun barrels....

Tapco sells FA trigger groups, they are all over the place.  Not everyone knows what a DIAS is, and it is legal to have an unregistered one under certain circumstances.  Not everyone understands the whole "constructive intent" deal since it is invariably unconstitutional and does not apply to ANYTHING ELSE in life.   I can have fertilizer and diesel fuel without hassle.  I have a penis, does that mean I am a rapist?  

We just can't be dicks to everyone who asks a question around here.  

Guys, all I can tell you is that it's all fun and games until someone discusses this kind of information or asks you to do something illegal here. By the time you realize what is going on, you may have said enough that an overzealous agency would get a court order to FUCK YOUR LIFE UP. We shouldn't have to live under this kind of threat, but you guys should have a healthy enough fear of our Law Enforcement culture in this country to know that the truth doesn't matter to them if it can be stretched far enough to get an indictment. Their funding doesn't come from the number of convictions they get,..... It won't be like television-by the time they get done screwing you over, you will be forced to prove your innocence, and your assets will have been seized (like using your home to get a loan for a lawyer?) to keep you from defending yourself.

Last year, I met a SF member who tried to entrap me into doing some illegal NFA work for him. This person came onto the site, got real popular real quick, got to be everybody's buddy, and I traveled out of state to meet him last fall. At the time, we didn't discuss much in the way of NFA stuff, but another person there had a suppressor which we fired on my weapon. At some point I mentioned that I was a tool and die maker and had access to machinery-in no way were my comments relative to firearms.

In the following weeks, we exchanged phone calls and IM's on Yahoo. On the third IM session, this person asked me to "help" him. He wanted me to make suppressor 'parts' for him. I declined because I knew ATF views having ANY suppressor parts as being in posession of a suppressor. In fact, they have gotten at least one conviction where the person charged had PVC pipe and fender washers in his garage..  Next, he asked me to finish an 80% AR15 reciever for him. Again, illegal to manufacture a weapon and transfer it to an individual without a manufacturers license. Finally, he asked me if I would make him some sheet metal "parts" for him. By this point I was getting wise to him and asked what it was. He emailed me prints for a Lightening Link, something that your average idiot can make with a drill and a file, but is considered illegal by ATF to be in posession of when you own an AR15.

All three of these situations were the type that an average Joe who isn't gun law savvy would get caught up in a sting. I ceased communication with this individual and he vanished from the board. Two months later, he resurfaced under a different username and began working on another member who was wise enough not to engage in the subject matter. I know that these two incidents are not the only ones that have happened with SF members in recent years-believe you me, this shit goes on all the time.

Some of you may have had a problem with jumping down the guy's throat for what he posted, but I guarantee you it was a lot less uncomfortable than I felt after my sting attempt. For a couple of weeks after, I had to wonder over and over if I had said anything that could possibly be misconstrued, stretched, reverse engineered, manipulated, or just plain taken advantage of. I had to worry that I would get a knock on the door or be arrested at work. Would they have had anything to arrest me on? No.. but then again, maybe that wasn't the intent? Maybe they are looking for an "in" to see if there really is any illegal activity on the SF? They would need more snitches for that.

All I can say guys is that you can't be too careful talking about this stuff... No, it's not illegal to discuss, but discretion is always the better part of valor-this forum is not an appropriate venue for discussion of NFA devices given the current political climate and general distrust of people involved with "Survivalism".

Keeping your nose clean isn't good enough. Call me paranoid, but talking about these things could be enough to get a warrant, get agents in your house, threaten you with the loss of your children, threaten you with imprisonment, seiure of your home, etc.. Again, BATFE's job is done once the prosecutor is doing his. Whether you walk or do time is of no consequense to them, but what will matter to you is that you will likely have lost every bit of hard work and gain you have made in your life defending yourself in a sham trial made to look good for the media or a budget cycle.

You are only as free as they let you think you are.

Dave

Wow, talk about a thread killer!

SHTF = Shit hits the Fan , I understand this.

But.....What does "Shit Hits the Fan" mean to all you guys???

What in the hell do you think a semi to full auto will help you if this imaginary dream comes to life?
Just practice shooting. Only thing that will save you is training (real work) not some metal sear.

PS - great post by "TheOtherDave". Cant be much more to talk about on this

The DIASs that they sell in Shotgun News are claimed to have been manufactured before 1981 and they claim to be legal.  I doubt that either claim is correct.

There are some who believe, based on a 1981 ATF ruling, that you can legally own an unregistered DIAS manufactured before 1981 as long as you don't own an AR.  You can get more on that here.

There is at least one federal appellate court opinion that disagrees.  The Seventh Circuit has stated that any unregistered DIAS, regardless of when it was manufactured, is an illegal machinegun.  The case is United States v. Cash, 149 F.3d 706 (7th Cir. 1998).

In a nutshell, the defendants were charged with selling 15 DIASs and silencers to undercover ATF agents.  The defendants copped a plea on the silencers, and then cried foul when the government tried to enhance the sentences based on the DIASs.

The defendants argued that the DIASs didn't have to be registered because they were made before 1981 (the ATF ruled that A DIAS was a machinegun in 1981, but said the ruling didn't apply to those made before the ruling).  The court called BS, saying while ATF could waive the application of the Ruling to any making, possession and transfer of sears that occurred before the Ruling date, any making, transfer or possession that happens after that date, regardless of when the sear itself was made, is subject to the NFA.  In addition, the court seemed to say that even if the ATF could grandfather pre-81 DIASs, it would be the defendants' burden to prove that they were manufactured before that date.    The court concluded that the evidence in that case indicated that they were manufactured no earlier than 1994.

Bottom line:  If you're in the Seventh Circuit (Illinois, Indiana & Wisconsin), if it's not registered, it's an illegal machinegun regardless of when it was manufactured.  If you're not in the Seventh Circuit, you get to be the test case.  

I have also heard that there was an ATF ruling along these same lines, but I have not seen any evidence that it actually exists.

One of the reasons I was given for him needing thi kind of help he wanted was so he could have it in the event of a SHTF. My immediate response was to tell him to get a table top lathe and mill so that he could have the *capability* to do that kind of work if things got soo bad that laws weren't in effect anymore. To have an NFA device or weapon laying around would be a huge liability to suffer for a day that may never come.

The way I look at it, it's better to move to an  NFA friendly state, pay the $200, wait for the Form 4 approval, and pay your $10,000 for a legal MG than to lose your home and everything you own by skating around The Man.

I suspect after the first day in Pound-Me-In-The-Ass-Prison, most people would agree.

Dave

You can get those DIAS's if you fill out a FORM 87.

Unfortunately that form was BANNED FROM CIVILIAN USE!

Quoted: One of the reasons I was given for him needing thi kind of help he wanted was so he could have it in the event of a SHTF. My immediate response was to tell him to get a table top lathe and mill so that he could have the *capability* to do that kind of work if things got soo bad that laws weren't in effect anymore.

This isn't an attack on you, but rather the notion, bro.

FULL AUTO isn't going to get you jack shit in a SHTF scenario.  This is some perceived need.  In a SHTF scenario, full auto is simply a fucking waste of ammo.  Unless you are in a military unit with a solid support group for resupply, you'd have to be a monumental MORON to be blasting up your ammo in full auto.  Aimed fire would be a far better ammo management strategy in 99.999% of realistic scenarios!

w00t!

I absolutely agree.

I've fired enough other people's full auto weapons in my life to know that they are highly impractical, SHTF, or not.

Subgun: shitty terminal ballistics, only good for use as a Room Broom.
Battle Rifle: Better ballistics, you'll run out of ammo on your first day without a military supply chain
Belt-Fed: If the Zombies really are coming over the wire and you need a Belt-Fed, they are gonna get your ass anyway.

Suppressors, are a different matter entirely. Very useful, very transferrable, and very inexpensive. you'd be a fool to make one illegally.

Quoted: In b4 da lok.

IBTL posts are pointless and a stupid waste of bandwidth.

Quoted: Quoted: In b4 da lok. IBTL posts are pointless and a stupid waste of bandwidth.

+1.

Am I the only person that seriously regrets not building one when it was legal?


Granted FA is worthless in "battle" but after shooting a friends it's damn fun...

Honestly Frank, I swiped it from GD, where they say "FPMITAP" or Federal Pound Me In The Ass Prison, and usually inreference to doing naughty things with guns.

Quoted: Quoted: In b4 da lok. IBTL posts are pointless and a stupid waste of bandwidth.

AWOB!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: In b4 da lok. IBTL posts are pointless and a stupid waste of bandwidth. AWOB!

Ok, I've read that  87 fucking times, Jesus.