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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 2/10/2006 11:31:13 AM EDT
This was about 25 years ago before the ATF cracked down on all the open-bolt subguns. There were companies selling REAL Stenguns and Mac10's that THEORETICALLY only took a few minutes to convert them to full-auto.

The Stengun was a REAL Stengun. The only modifications made to the gun was to slip a long tube over the barrel and spot weld it to make the barrel 16 inches. They also put a spot weld on the selector switch to lock the selector in the semi-auto postition. THAT'S IT!!! THEORETICALLY you could remove the spot weld with a dremel tool in minutes, and rub some cold bluing on it, and have a ORIGINAL design selective fire Sten gun. I think the reciever was a new tube and that's how the manufacturer got away with selling it as a 16" semi-auto rifle. The gun store in my town had 4 of them and a guy I know bought them all.

With the MAC10, the gun was a fully manufactured selective fire submachinegun, complete in every way except the holes for the reciever pins only had the pilot holes drilled. They sold for $275. The manufacturer even included a drill bit to finish the holes. ANYONE could order this MAC10 through the mail since it would not fire as shipped and was not considered a gun. Five minutes with a power drill was all that was required to complete it.


Can you believe this stuff used to be approved by the ATF for sale??? Look where we are today.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:35:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:41:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
I remember when you could mail order guns from the Sear's catalog.




I was just a kid then (born in the late 50's). Going back even furthur, how wonderful it would be to order Thompson SMG from the Sears catalog and have it delivered to your house.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:43:52 AM EDT
I was in my crib 25 years ago. Unable to buy machine guns because of the darn age laws.

Of course the lack of money, and my inability to walk and speak probably factored into it as well.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:47:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 8:53:56 AM EDT by AssaultRifler]
they cracked down on them because people were converting them to illegal machine guns. Hell in the early 80's machine guns were still transferable and cheap, pay the freaking tax!

I read a gun control book or anti gun control book about 5 years back, can't recall the name. But it mentioned at some gun shows you could legally purchase MAC 10 suppressor bodies from one vendor and it was legal as it wasn't a completed suppressor, then go to another table and buy the baffles which was legal again because baffles only does not a suppressor make.

ETA: book was "Lethal Passage" by Erik Larson
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:47:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
I was in my crib 25 years ago. Unable to buy machine guns because of the darn age laws.

Of course the lack of money, and my inability to walk and speak probably factored into it as well.




You could have ordered that MAC10.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:50:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
they cracked down on them because people were converting them to illegal machine guns. Hell in the early 80's machine guns were still transferable and cheap, pay the freaking tax!

I read a gun control book or anti gun control book about 5 years back, can't recall the name. But it mentioned at some gun shows you could legally purchase MAC 10 suppressor bodies from one vendor and it was legal as it wasn't a completed suppressor, then go to another table and buy the baffles which was legal again because baffles only does not a suppressor make.




I remember that. At every gun show there would always be 3 or 4 guys selling the internals to the suppressor, and 3 or 4 different guys selling the tubes. It wasn't illegal unless you owned the internals AND the tubes.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:51:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
they cracked down on them because people were converting them to illegal machine guns. Hell in the early 80's machine guns were still transferable and cheap, pay the freaking tax!

I read a gun control book or anti gun control book about 5 years back, can't recall the name. But it mentioned at some gun shows you could legally purchase MAC 10 suppressor bodies from one vendor and it was legal as it wasn't a completed suppressor, then go to another table and buy the baffles which was legal again because baffles only does not a suppressor make.



Yep and you also see butt loads of DIAS just laying on the tables. Gun shows of the early 80's was amazing.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:53:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
I remember when you could mail order guns from the Sear's catalog.




Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:54:16 AM EDT
I remember that. The Mac was popular with several pilots in my Guard unit.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:54:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
they cracked down on them because people were converting them to illegal machine guns. Hell in the early 80's machine guns were still transferable and cheap, pay the freaking tax!

I read a gun control book or anti gun control book about 5 years back, can't recall the name. But it mentioned at some gun shows you could legally purchase MAC 10 suppressor bodies from one vendor and it was legal as it wasn't a completed suppressor, then go to another table and buy the baffles which was legal again because baffles only does not a suppressor make.



Yep and you also see butt loads of DIAS just laying on the tables. Gun shows of the early 80's was amazing.




I forgot about that!!! They would sell for about $90 and they were legal unless you owned all the M16 parts too (hammer, trigger, bolt carrier and selector) and an AR15.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:54:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
I was in my crib 25 years ago. Unable to buy machine guns because of the darn age laws.

Of course the lack of money, and my inability to walk and speak probably factored into it as well.



Excuses, excuses.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 11:59:13 AM EDT
*sigh*



That was truly the Golden Age of the gun market. Except for the Golden Age jsut before 68. Or the Golden Age just before 34.

We're living in the Golden Age right now. Gun shows now suck, but 10 years from now, gun shows now will have rocked.

It's truly sad...
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:01:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mr0w1:
*sigh*



That was truly the Golden Age of the gun market. Except for the Golden Age jsut before 68. Or the Golden Age just before 34.

We're living in the Golden Age right now. Gun shows now suck, but 10 years from now, gun shows now will have rocked.

It's truly sad...



Sad but true. ~20 years from now we'll be lamenting how you used to be able to buy a SEMI-AUTO AR-15 at a gun show that was just sitting on a table waiting to be sold
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:01:32 PM EDT
Makes me wonder how many of those items are hidden away today.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:03:36 PM EDT
my first firearms were purchased at Sears......I used to buy ammo at the mall.....I used to buy knives at the mall....I used to get my hunting licenses at the mall.....my fishing suplies....hell all of my outdoor activities...but not today.....
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:05:25 PM EDT
M-16 trigger group $25
M-16 Bolt Carrier with key $40
DIAS $35

Trip to the far far far away desert... Priceless
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:05:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Makes me wonder how many of those items are hidden away today.



more than we will ever know....hell I wonder how many "ARMY" things are just sitting in an attic of a "family" home somewhere forgotten in some box.....nobody but grandpa liked thoose old army guns then grandpa passed away and I forgot all about it or didnt know about it when I moved into the house...I wonder if that arguement would work as a defense in court..LOL
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:06:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
I remember when you could mail order guns from the Sear's catalog.



And none of them had serial numbers.

I have several .22 rifles and shotguns made by H&R (Sears) with no serial numbers.

Av.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:09:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 12:10:04 PM EDT by Avalon01]

Originally Posted By BURN:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Makes me wonder how many of those items are hidden away today.



more than we will ever know....hell I wonder how many "ARMY" things are just sitting in an attic of a "family" home somewhere forgotten in some box.....nobody but grandpa liked thoose old army guns then grandpa passed away and I forgot all about it or didnt know about it when I moved into the house...I wonder if that arguement would work as a defense in court..LOL



I have pictures of my Wife shooting a MP-40 that was brought to the local Class 3 dealers store by the widow of a WW2 vet.

We were able to shoot it since I know the owner of the store and am a WW2 buff. It was an early model and was going to a museum to be deactivated and placed on display.

This was in 2004.

Av.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:13:12 PM EDT
I bought an open bolt 9mm Mac 10 in the 80s for $500. Wouldn't shoot a mag without jamming. Took it to a guy here in Atlanta named Daniels who may have worked with PBS, or whatever it was called, and he couldn't even make it work. POS! Ordered the full auto piece from Shotgun News then found out that to even own both pieces at one time was a felony. Sent the FA parts back by reg. mail and told them to keep the money. Sold the Mac.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:18:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
I bought an open bolt 9mm Mac 10 in the 80s for $500. Wouldn't shoot a mag without jamming. Took it to a guy here in Atlanta named Daniels who may have worked with PBS, or whatever it was called, and he couldn't even make it work. POS! Ordered the full auto piece from Shotgun News then found out that to even own both pieces at one time was a felony. Sent the FA parts back by reg. mail and told them to keep the money. Sold the Mac.




The 9mm versions were jam-o-matics because of the ultra-crappy cheapo POS mags. The original 9mm MAC was designed to use the Carl Gustaf 9mm subgun mag (or some Swed gun--i forget). When those mags ran out on the open market, they started using some POS aftermarket mags. That was the problem with the 9mm guns. The .45ACP version used the GI ISSUE Grease-Gun mag. The .45ACP version was damn reliable.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 12:26:16 PM EDT
If mine had been a .45 I'd still have it.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 3:03:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2006 3:07:37 PM EDT by 1371]
I had one of the 45 caliber M-10's.The damn thing would fire 2-4 round bursts.I later traded it for a nice used SP1.I recall the gun was made by Cobray.Thats one gun I should have kept....Was a hoot to shoot.That was around 1980-81
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 3:09:19 PM EDT
There were two different makers of that gun. Maybe it was Cobray and RPB? Somewhere in Mareitta, GA?
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 3:14:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
The 9mm versions were jam-o-matics because of the ultra-crappy cheapo POS mags. The original 9mm MAC was designed to use the Carl Gustaf 9mm subgun mag (or some Swed gun--i forget). When those mags ran out on the open market, they started using some POS aftermarket mags. That was the problem with the 9mm guns. The .45ACP version used the GI ISSUE Grease-Gun mag. The .45ACP version was damn reliable.





The original M10/9 mags were for the Walther MPK/MPL.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 3:16:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:
I remember when you could mail order guns from the Sear's catalog.

Or JC Pennys for that matter. That's where I got my first firearm; a JC Pennys.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 3:21:50 PM EDT
Was cobray made in Miami? I had a semi auto .45 that fired from open bolt, it was a little tough to shoot with that five pound weight slamming back and forth in there. Wish I had kept it though.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 3:22:10 PM EDT
I remember fifteen years ago, IN KALIFORNIA, seeing ROWS and ROWS of M-16 carriers and keys, SBR uppers, all sorts of stuff I just took for granted.

I also remember buying stuff at shows in S.C. while I was a the Citafdel and thinking it was a pain to wait 3 days to pick it up.

My dad bought his first weapon, a .22 pump, from the hardware store, when he was 12, for $12.00.

We still have it.
Link Posted: 2/10/2006 3:24:55 PM EDT
I remember one of them being built in Atl. The owner got locked up or something and the big woman tried to run it.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:17:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2006 6:17:22 AM EDT by 1371]
I remember it was built in Georgia..I thought it was Cobray..I remember a snake emblem..
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:22:23 AM EDT
One of the manfactuers was a company called Powder Springs near Atlanta.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:33:54 AM EDT
Found this:

MAC History

Military Armament Corporation (MAC), based in Powder Springs Georgia from 1970-1976 was the first company to commercially produce the MAC Model 10 (MAC-10).This is the company started by Gordon Ingram that designed and built the first MAC (now you know where the name came from). MAC marketed a number of different weapons, but the MAC-10 (chambered in 9 mm and later in.45 ACP) and the high cyclic rate (approx. 1600 rpm) MAC-11 (chambered in .380) were its mainstays. MAC declared bankruptcy in 1976 and went out of business. A number of factors led to their demise, but the big reason was that little or no military interest in the MAC was generated. MAC sold its tooling and assets (registered and unregistered frames, and parts) to another Georgia-based company called RPB in 1977.

RPB (which has been rumored to stand for Rape, Plunder, and Burn) made the MAC in the same calibers as did the Powder Springs Plant, but in some collectors eyes the manufacturing was not on par with the original MAC. Nearly all of the machine guns that came from RPB were either frame flats, frames or completed guns which were bought from MAC in the auction. Because the machine gun market at that time was not as popular as it is today, RPB came up with a new marketing strategy, which was to offer the MAC-10 as a Title I weapon (a semi-automatic) creating an Open Bolt semi-automatic firearm. BATF stepped in mid-1982 and halted the manufacture of open bolt semi's because they were easily convertible to full-auto. About a year later, RPB went out of business.

SWD Incorporated. In 1983, Wayne Daniels, a former principal at RPB Industries, started his own company. He modified the existing MAC design and created the SWD (Sylvia and Wayne Daniels) M11/9. The gun was MASS-PRODUCED, and that is the reason that so many are still offered for sale NIB. When the MG ban went through in 1986, SWD sold the rights (or became part of) Cobray. Cobray started marketing the closed bolt design Cobray M11/9. This semi-auto uses the exact same MG receiver as did the SWD M11/9, with only a few exceptions (selector switch not drilled, sear pin, and re-enforcing plates absent). After the Assault Weapons Ban in 1994, the Cobray M11/9 could no longer be made, so Cobray re-marketed the gun with a non-threaded barrel and a mag release as the PM-11/9.



Other Manufacturers

MAC, Stephensville, TX-James Leatherwood took the MAC design from the Powder Springs plant and redesigned the gun to be "better". In short, Leatherwood redesigned the trigger mechanism, the safety, and the stock. Some of these improvements were viewed as "improvements" others were viewed as "disappointments". The guns built by Leatherwood were also tack welded rather than TIG welded. This turned out to be the biggest disappointment as the "Texas MAC" has a reputation of shaking their tack welds loose and in some cases injuring the shooter. Many of the Texas MAC frames (I have heard in excess of 1000) were purchased by Wayne Daniels when Leatherwood operation folded. These "Texas MACs" frames were built-up using RPB and Cobray parts and most importantly, they were TIG welded. The SWD Texas MACs use a SWD magazine housing, SWD grip, SWD 9mm barrel, and most importantly the SWD Zytel mags.

Jersey Arms-this company built M10/9s and M10/45s before folding. These guns were built using essentially the same designs and principals as the PS and RPB guns and were made by Hatton Industries in Indian Mills, New Jersey.

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 6:43:57 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:08:14 AM EDT
Anybody remember the Spetsnaz ballistic knife? Spring-loaded, could be launched, and would penetrate a sheet of plywood. Not practical, but cool.
I think they ended up outlawing the knife, and would only let it launch a blunt baton.

I remember those days. Suppressor parts, sten tubes, open-bolt macs.

I bought my HK91 NIB, off a table at a gunshow, for $460, + $5 out-of-state transfer.

Should'a bought 10.

HKO
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:17:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
This was about 25 years ago before the ATF cracked down on all the open-bolt subguns. There were companies selling REAL Stenguns and Mac10's that THEORETICALLY only took a few minutes to convert them to full-auto.

The Stengun was a REAL Stengun. The only modifications made to the gun was to slip a long tube over the barrel and spot weld it to make the barrel 16 inches. They also put a spot weld on the selector switch to lock the selector in the semi-auto postition. THAT'S IT!!! THEORETICALLY you could remove the spot weld with a dremel tool in minutes, and rub some cold bluing on it, and have a ORIGINAL design selective fire Sten gun. I think the reciever was a new tube and that's how the manufacturer got away with selling it as a 16" semi-auto rifle. The gun store in my town had 4 of them and a guy I know bought them all.

With the MAC10, the gun was a fully manufactured selective fire submachinegun, complete in every way except the holes for the reciever pins only had the pilot holes drilled. They sold for $275. The manufacturer even included a drill bit to finish the holes. ANYONE could order this MAC10 through the mail since it would not fire as shipped and was not considered a gun. Five minutes with a power drill was all that was required to complete it.


Can you believe this stuff used to be approved by the ATF for sale??? Look where we are today.



With a little thought and effort you could build a tube gun smg for ~$50 in ordinary hardware store parts. Not sure what they thought they were preventing by barring sales of open-bolt macs and stens...
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:28:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
they cracked down on them because people were converting them to illegal machine guns. Hell in the early 80's machine guns were still transferable and cheap, pay the freaking tax!

I read a gun control book or anti gun control book about 5 years back, can't recall the name. But it mentioned at some gun shows you could legally purchase MAC 10 suppressor bodies from one vendor and it was legal as it wasn't a completed suppressor, then go to another table and buy the baffles which was legal again because baffles only does not a suppressor make.



I vividly remember that!! You could find that stuff at TN and GA shows!!

Remember the Tec 9 that came out, open bolt with optional pistol grip for the barrel shroud??

Remember the "gun test" in a gun rag and they had the PG on it??

The 80's were cool....

Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:33:29 AM EDT
Daniels was the guy who tried to get my 9mm to operate properly. Even he couldn't do it. POS.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:41:40 AM EDT
Im going to the gun show today, and first time I see beef jerky or jewelry, I'm going to remember this thread and silently hate you all.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 8:51:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
Can you believe this stuff used to be approved by the ATF for sale??? Look where we are today.



Yup, pretty sad. My Suomi M31 build would be easier if I could use the original FCG and just weld the selector in place.

I remember when you could order bolt action and semi-auto rifles and pistols to your front door with a $30 dollar license. Wait . . . you still can.
Link Posted: 2/11/2006 11:20:54 AM EDT
I stand corrected...Mine must have been a RPB MAC....Nice info there
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