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Posted: 4/20/2016 10:38:20 AM EDT
A document buried by an AQ bombmaker in Pakistan, dug up and released. Now, it says more about the Saudi's connection to the hijackers.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/saudi-diplomats-linked-to-september-11-terror-plot/news-story/66592c608fb4b63e577c9a3a086c3b43
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 10:40:39 AM EDT
You must pay for The Australian, because the site won't let me see the article without paying.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 10:40:43 AM EDT
The link is weird.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 10:43:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 10:45:29 AM EDT
Is this why the Saudis are dumping oil....end game?
Wish we had a president with some guts
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 10:45:41 AM EDT
Here's "Document 17": link
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:02:10 AM EDT
Wait, the Saudis aren't our friends? C'mon, next you'll be saying we can't can't trust our allies the Pakistanis.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:09:35 AM EDT
I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:12:00 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Is this why the Saudis are dumping oil....end game?
Wish we had a president with some guts
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They are doing it either to hurt Iran or to hurt fracking. I think it is a losing approach with respect to fracking, so it must be Iran.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:14:21 AM EDT
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Quoted:
I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
View Quote


The issue is less about nation states and more about culture/religion anyway.

People want to identify a limited target. A nation, a group, or some criminals responsible. They don't want to admit what we actually face.

Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:15:07 AM EDT
So how do OBL, and KSM fit in?
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:15:11 AM EDT
"Learnt"...article written by a millennial?
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:17:21 AM EDT
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Quoted:
"Learnt"...article written by a millennial?
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No, old man, that's the correct way to make 'learn' past-tense.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:22:51 AM EDT



   Snap,rash  decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:25:47 AM EDT

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Quoted:
No, old man, that's the correct way to make 'learn' past-tense.
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Quoted:



Quoted:

"Learnt"...article written by a millennial?






No, old man, that's the correct way to make 'learn' past-tense.


I think you mean "learned".





 
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:27:10 AM EDT
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Quoted:
So how do OBL, and KSM fit in?
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Money trail?
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:27:58 AM EDT
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Quoted:
So how do OBL, and KSM fit in?
View Quote


OBL was the money man to the Baluchis, and KSM was head Baluchi free agent terrorist.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:30:53 AM EDT
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Quoted:



No, old man, that's the correct way to make 'learn' past-tense.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
"Learnt"...article written by a millennial?



No, old man, that's the correct way to make 'learn' past-tense.




Please tell me you were joking............
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:32:45 AM EDT
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Quoted:
   Snap,rash  decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative.
View Quote


Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions.

The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:35:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:37:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:37:37 AM EDT
Saudi Arabia is the country we should have invaded after 7/11 9/11
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:46:59 AM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind.



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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OPEC is hopelessly splintered.  The US relies on far less Saudi oil than it used to, and if we had to go without it we have other sources we could switch to without badly harming the economy.  The Saudi foreign leadership bribery budget is probably shrinking rapidly and it's obvious that their hold on power has been severely weakened.  They are on the losing side of a multi front war against Iran, Russia, Syria, the Houthi rebels in Yemen et al.  Obama basically told them to fuck off after they begged for help in Syria and against the Iranian nuclear program.  They're about to spend money they're short on and eat some sanctions on top of that to build/buy their own nukes.  




The Saudi government isn't indispensable any more.  Keeping them in power will be wildly expensive and will show diminishing returns.  More people in power are doing the math and finding that the personal cost of protecting Saudi dirty secrets exceeds the benefit.  And all of a sudden we're talking seriously about something everyone knew all along.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 11:53:48 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions.

The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
   Snap,rash  decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative.


Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions.

The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else.


This is a great summation. Though, I'd argue that there was a hope at the time that discreet surgery could cure the cancer, and eliminate the need for radiation and chemicals.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:16:28 PM EDT

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Quoted:


Here's "Document 17": link
View Quote




 
I'm confused. If the pages are in a secure room how did I just read them?
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:19:33 PM EDT
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Quoted:


OBL was the money man to the Baluchis, and KSM was head Baluchi free agent terrorist.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
So how do OBL, and KSM fit in?


OBL was the money man to the Baluchis, and KSM was head Baluchi free agent terrorist.


That's what I'm thinking, but if OBL was the money man, then why would the Saudis need to fund?
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:19:59 PM EDT
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Quoted:


The issue is less about nation states and more about culture/religion anyway.

People want to identify a limited target. A nation, a group, or some criminals responsible. They don't want to admit what we actually face.

View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


The issue is less about nation states and more about culture/religion anyway.

People want to identify a limited target. A nation, a group, or some criminals responsible. They don't want to admit what we actually face.


And what exactly do we "actually face"?
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:22:19 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Wait, the Saudis aren't our friends? C'mon, next you'll be saying we can't can't trust our allies the Pakistanis.
View Quote


What's the world coming to?
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:28:04 PM EDT

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Quoted:





  I'm confused. If the pages are in a secure room how did I just read them?

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Quoted:



Quoted:

Here's "Document 17": link


  I'm confused. If the pages are in a secure room how did I just read them?

Those aren't the pages that were classified and left out of the 9/11 Commission Report. That's the Document 17.

 
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:31:42 PM EDT

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I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind.



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Uhhh, it could be because it is becoming more main stream information.  Could be people are hearing for the first time because they are uninformed.  This issue is finally gaining traction after years of war.  It is coming to a head.  Depending on which way the election goes it could reach that head faster or slower.  

 



But the basic answer is people stay uninformed, thank you main stream media.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:33:21 PM EDT
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Quoted:

And what exactly do we "actually face"?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


The issue is less about nation states and more about culture/religion anyway.

People want to identify a limited target. A nation, a group, or some criminals responsible. They don't want to admit what we actually face.


And what exactly do we "actually face"?


Cultural and religious war.

The problem doesn't begin or end with AQ, ISIS, or other such groups. It wasn't caused by the West. Islam is waking up, looking around and challenging the dominate cultures.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:35:45 PM EDT

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Quoted:





  OPEC is hopelessly splintered.  The US relies on far less Saudi oil than it used to, and if we had to go without it we have other sources we could switch to without badly harming the economy.  The Saudi foreign leadership bribery budget is probably shrinking rapidly and it's obvious that their hold on power has been severely weakened.  They are on the losing side of a multi front war against Iran, Russia, Syria, the Houthi rebels in Yemen et al.  Obama basically told them to fuck off after they begged for help in Syria and against the Iranian nuclear program.  They're about to spend money they're short on and eat some sanctions on top of that to build/buy their own nukes.  





The Saudi government isn't indispensable any more.  Keeping them in power will be wildly expensive and will show diminishing returns.  More people in power are doing the math and finding that the personal cost of protecting Saudi dirty secrets exceeds the benefit.  And all of a sudden we're talking seriously about something everyone knew all along.

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Quoted:



Quoted:

I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind.



Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


  OPEC is hopelessly splintered.  The US relies on far less Saudi oil than it used to, and if we had to go without it we have other sources we could switch to without badly harming the economy.  The Saudi foreign leadership bribery budget is probably shrinking rapidly and it's obvious that their hold on power has been severely weakened.  They are on the losing side of a multi front war against Iran, Russia, Syria, the Houthi rebels in Yemen et al.  Obama basically told them to fuck off after they begged for help in Syria and against the Iranian nuclear program.  They're about to spend money they're short on and eat some sanctions on top of that to build/buy their own nukes.  





The Saudi government isn't indispensable any more.  Keeping them in power will be wildly expensive and will show diminishing returns.  More people in power are doing the math and finding that the personal cost of protecting Saudi dirty secrets exceeds the benefit.  And all of a sudden we're talking seriously about something everyone knew all along.

Given our current debt situation and overspending, what is not dispensible is the barrel oil being bought and sold with U.S. dollars, think about that.  That is ending with black market oil and other countries pushing for it's end.  

 



I am not advocating defending the Saudi's, I am just saying things to think about.  Stuff could get real, very quickly.  
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:36:33 PM EDT
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This is a great summation. Though, I'd argue that there was a hope at the time that discreet surgery could cure the cancer, and eliminate the need for radiation and chemicals.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
   Snap,rash  decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative.


Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions.

The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else.


This is a great summation. Though, I'd argue that there was a hope at the time that discreet surgery could cure the cancer, and eliminate the need for radiation and chemicals.


Yes.

I thought the advances of the West would be the winning factor in the larger conflict. I'm not so sure now.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:41:32 PM EDT
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I am not advocating defending the Saudi's, I am just saying things to think about.  Stuff could get real, very quickly.  
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Yes, and more. Iran likely had its hands in 9/11 as well. But Iran and SA are currently facing off, and Russia is a friend of Iran.

Russia and Iran have both increased their stature in the ME, due to the current administration.

If the House of Saud falls it won't be replaced by something that we like better. It will become the Sunni version of Iran.

Like it or not our interests in the region are tied up with the House of Saud.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:43:37 PM EDT
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So how do OBL, and KSM fit in?
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The whole point of 9/11 was to implicate the Saudi's in attacks on the US, so that the Muslim Brotherhood could drive a rift between the US-Saudi alliance.

If the Saudi's were behind 9/11, they would have recruited Iranians.

If you know even the least bit of history about the Ottoman-Turkish Caliphate and how it ended after The Great War, largely due to The House of Saud helping the British Empire attack the Turks in their strategic rear to distract them from the European Theater, then you understand what is happening.

Since most people don't know geography or history, and only respond to emotional stimuli, they can easily be mislead into thinking the Saudis were behind 9/11.

Khalid Sheikh Mohamed specifically tasked Mohamed Atta and the other Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood cell leaders with recruiting Saudi nationals for the Big Event.

This is well-known to those who have worked the investigation.

The end game goal is to create bad blood between the US and the Saudis, so the major obstacle to the Caliphate can be toppled once they lose US support.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:44:20 PM EDT
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Quoted:

And what exactly do we "actually face"?
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Quoted:
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Quoted:
I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


The issue is less about nation states and more about culture/religion anyway.

People want to identify a limited target. A nation, a group, or some criminals responsible. They don't want to admit what we actually face.


And what exactly do we "actually face"?



A worldwide group of people who think their god has commanded them to kill or subjugate everyone else.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:45:20 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions.

The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
   Snap,rash  decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative.


Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions.

The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else.

Everyone else underestimates the big picture Bush and his NSC had, that can't be shared publicly.

It's very common for peasants to assume the NSC is filled with idiots, but it wasn't, despite what Rachel Maddow and Chris Mathews assert.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:45:29 PM EDT
You know what?  Saudi Arabia is not our friend.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:48:44 PM EDT
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I think you mean "learned".

 
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Quoted:
"Learnt"...article written by a millennial?



No, old man, that's the correct way to make 'learn' past-tense.

I think you mean "learned".

 


He done learnt somethin new today
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:48:48 PM EDT



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Quoted:




You know what?  Saudi Arabia is not our friend.
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Ok, and I don't particularly like them, but tell then....who is?  Right now anyway?


 





*We need a long term exit strategy from the Saudi's.  We do not need jump on the band wagon and attack them.  Not out of consideration for them, but out of self preservation for us.  Just something to think about.


 
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:53:54 PM EDT
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Everyone else underestimates the big picture Bush and his NSC had, that can't be shared publicly.

It's very common for peasants to assume the NSC is filled with idiots, but it wasn't, despite what Rachel Maddow and Chris Mathews assert.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
   Snap,rash  decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative.


Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions.

The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else.

Everyone else underestimates the big picture Bush and his NSC had, that can't be shared publicly.

It's very common for peasants to assume the NSC is filled with idiots, but it wasn't, despite what Rachel Maddow and Chris Mathews assert.


Bush probably placed too much stock in the advice of Bernard Lewis, which made reforming the ME seem like an easier task than it was. Nevertheless the post Surge Iraq was a success we threw away. Our choice to retreat from the region gave the bad actors a victory which gave them incentive to double down. And this self inflicted defeat was done simply because the left saw it as a path to domestic power.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:54:51 PM EDT
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  OPEC is hopelessly splintered.  The US relies on far less Saudi oil than it used to, and if we had to go without it we have other sources we could switch to without badly harming the economy. The Saudi foreign leadership bribery budget is probably shrinking rapidly and it's obvious that their hold on power has been severely weakened.  They are on the losing side of a multi front war against Iran, Russia, Syria, the Houthi rebels in Yemen et al.  Obama basically told them to fuck off after they begged for help in Syria and against the Iranian nuclear program.  They're about to spend money they're short on and eat some sanctions on top of that to build/buy their own nukes.  


The Saudi government isn't indispensable any more.  Keeping them in power will be wildly expensive and will show diminishing returns.  More people in power are doing the math and finding that the personal cost of protecting Saudi dirty secrets exceeds the benefit.  And all of a sudden we're talking seriously about something everyone knew all along.
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Quoted:
I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

  OPEC is hopelessly splintered.  The US relies on far less Saudi oil than it used to, and if we had to go without it we have other sources we could switch to without badly harming the economy. The Saudi foreign leadership bribery budget is probably shrinking rapidly and it's obvious that their hold on power has been severely weakened.  They are on the losing side of a multi front war against Iran, Russia, Syria, the Houthi rebels in Yemen et al.  Obama basically told them to fuck off after they begged for help in Syria and against the Iranian nuclear program.  They're about to spend money they're short on and eat some sanctions on top of that to build/buy their own nukes.  


The Saudi government isn't indispensable any more.  Keeping them in power will be wildly expensive and will show diminishing returns.  More people in power are doing the math and finding that the personal cost of protecting Saudi dirty secrets exceeds the benefit.  And all of a sudden we're talking seriously about something everyone knew all along.

Negative.  See my post above.  "Everyone" doesn't know the basic history of the region, and is so ignorant about the world outside of their daily rabbit path, they should be tased every time they try to form a foreign policy opinion, especially since they don't even know the basic geography of their own State or region, let alone the demographics, economy, or any other relevant data that would come into play at an international level.

Your assumptions about Saudi oil are based on energy, not strategic threats in the region.  Take the natural path of your suggestions, and see what oil is priced at once Iran exerts more aggression in the Strait of Hormuz.  Who does that benefit?

Russia and Iran, as prices will go back up to over $200/barrel.  All they need to do is attack a ship or two, no major conflict is necessary.  All of a sudden, prices sky-rocket and the Kremlin and Tehran can get back to raking in good margins.  That's with the US totally independent by the way.  China, Japan, India, South Korea, Australia, and other high demand customers will be bent over again, the US will have to devote more military operations for stability, and people at home will ask why we are paying for it since they don't understand basic supply and demand after 12 years of public retarding.

You think Canada, Mexico, and our own suppliers are going to ignore the international rate and sell to the US at a discount?
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:55:17 PM EDT
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Wait, the Saudis aren't our friends? C'mon, next you'll be saying we can't can't trust our allies the Pakistanis.
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Harumph
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 12:58:58 PM EDT
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Ok, and I don't particularly like them, but tell then....who is?  Right now anyway?  

*We need a long term exit strategy from the Saudi's.  We do not need jump on the band wagon and attack them.  Not out of consideration for them, but out of self preservation for us.  Just something to think about.
 
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You know what?  Saudi Arabia is not our friend.
Ok, and I don't particularly like them, but tell then....who is?  Right now anyway?  

*We need a long term exit strategy from the Saudi's.  We do not need jump on the band wagon and attack them.  Not out of consideration for them, but out of self preservation for us.  Just something to think about.
 


I think we need a long term strategy based on the fact that their oil will not be able to maintain the current structure in the region for ever.

Also, a key factor in foreign policy is being a reliable ally. We have had trouble with that, since many of our allies in the non-Western world are ill-behaved, so we kicked them to the curb with disastrous results: Batista, Somoza, the Shah, etc. The economic and military power we have is not nearly as useful if we can't be counted on. Putin with his weak hand has made inroads in ME by providing more reliable leadership.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 1:03:28 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions.

The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
   Snap,rash  decisions were made,there was never going to be a change in the narrative.


Neither the wars in Afghanistan nor in Iraq were snap, rash decisions.

The issue is that the threat we face isn't just due to some limited radical groups or some set of nation states. Bush underestimated the scope of the problem, but so has everyone else.



Not the wars,picking teams and proclaiming that the Pakistanis and Saudis were allies.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 1:04:16 PM EDT
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I have no idea why people are freaking out about Saudi Arabia right now, relative to 9/11. Lots of aq guys were Saudi, lots of highjackers were Saudis and a certain percentage of the Royal family in Saudi has always supported aq. It's been that way since at least the 80s. I don't need unclassified documents to know this... And am not sure why some people are acting like this is a revelation of some kind.
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The Obama administration has been trying to conduct a switch in alliances in the middle east, and tilting away from Saudi Arabia and towards Iran.
It's basically insane, but Obama gonna Obama. This is probably part of that campaign.

BTW, this guy:

http://observer.com/2016/04/uncovering-the-hidden-truths-of-911/

Has some interesting background, including the possibility that Iran was also providing support to AQ.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 1:06:58 PM EDT
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Everyone else underestimates the big picture Bush and his NSC had, that can't be shared publicly.

It's very common for peasants to assume the NSC is filled with idiots, but it wasn't, despite what Rachel Maddow and Chris Mathews assert.
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I don't know that this is true cause I don't know, but I'm surprised more people don't hold this opinion or - at least - allow themselves to include it as part of the equation.

Great post, as usual.
Link Posted: 4/20/2016 1:14:24 PM EDT

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No, old man, that's the correct way to make 'learn' past-tense.
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Quoted:

"Learnt"...article written by a millennial?






No, old man, that's the correct way to make 'learn' past-tense.




Maybe on the Beverly Hillbillies...???



 

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