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Posted: 1/2/2003 10:14:56 AM EDT
While with my family over the Holidays, the subject of unions and organized labor was brought up.  Without getting into the details discussion/argument I experienced, I was wondering what the folks at ARFCOM thought.  So, do you guys support unions and organized labor? For the purposes of fairness, I will abstain.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:18:44 AM EDT

IBBGH  (in before boomer gets here)

**pass the popcorn please**
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:23:57 AM EDT
I got some orvil reddenbockers(sp) in the microwave right now.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:29:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 10:30:13 AM EDT by Avalon01]
I've never been in a Union, nor do I feel I need/want one to represent me.

I have worked with union people on several construction jobs at my workplace. I work for a public school district and all of our construction MUST be union work. So far, none of the network wiring guys have been competent in their jobs. Quite often I will go in and fix problems after the job is done.

Can't/don't read the blueprints, make changes on the fly without authorization from myself or the on-site Job Manager, poor cable connections, and missing cables have been most encountered.

Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:32:35 AM EDT
No, I do not.  Ask yourself what has become of so much industry we now deal with overseas on.  To oversimplify it, the unions are responsible for demanding wages and benefits not commensurate with the work performed.  It doesn't support itself, and it kills the industry they ostensibly want to better.  Unions do nobody any favors in the long run.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:40:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 10:45:26 AM EDT by Happyshooter]
I am an attorney and do a fair amount of managment side labor work.

Unions are great if the employer is large or the only one in town and wants to start jacking employees.

Unions are really great is there are two or three places in town that do the same basic thing that have large workforces and one has a union, the other two become great guys to work for with good pay.

If a union is in place and has been for years or if it gets into a workplace that always has treated its people fair it quickly turns into a club which exists solely to give do nothing jobs to the friends and relations of the bargaining committeemen and to safeguard the job of the biggest criminals and dirtballs in the plant, all on the backs of the decent workers. Pretty soon comes the 'retreat' for the committeemen, anything from a hunting lodge to a floor of a hotel, then comes the local pension money investment.

Even if the workers wise up there is no earthly way to get the union out. If the workers vote it out, or even petition it out, the NLRB overrules them and orders another year of representation based on some trumped up violation of the NLRA by the employer.

Case in point: Large employer caught some employees screwing off and docked them some pay, but two were past or present committeemen. They also had a low level foremen smoke his cig outside before punching in at the same time the anti-employees were gathering signatures against the union on the same side of the plant.

Even though over three-quarters of the employees signed the petition to kick the union out--a bargaining order was issued.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:48:41 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:50:49 AM EDT
I work in data processing, I was laid off two months ago. Some of the workers that kept their jobs were not even American citizens. They were H1B Visa workers from China, India etc.

All the interviews I have been on last two months, I have to compete with these foreign workers. Let me tell you. They will work for rice.

Would I be part of a Union.  HELL YES!
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:00:41 AM EDT
Union Yes!!
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:03:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:04:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy223:
(In Before People Start Bitching And Whining That I Dont Deserve To Earn A Living Wage)

IUOE Local 547
View Quote

Nobody said you don't deserve a living wage.  You deserve the wage that your skill level brings to the job at hand based on market demand for your skill, not based on an artificial scenerio dictated by a union.  The market should be allowed to pay what the market will bear, this is truly what is best for everyone.  If an employer needs to pay $20 and hour to get the job done, then so be it.  But if an employer can find a way to get that job done for $5.15, so be it as well.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:07:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 11:08:28 AM EDT by GreyGhost]
I belong to the United Association of Plumbers and Pipefitters which includes A/C men like me.I can't comment on these anti union stories because I have no experience with these situations.I can tell you my employer can fire my ass anytime he feels like.He can also go non union anytime he feels like.

Florida is a very non union state so there's nothing hanging over my employers head to be union.He's union for 2 reasons.
1.We are the best trained so we can make him the most money(at least in my field)
2.He can call the hall for 100 men and within 2-3 days he'll have 100 men.

I do have to admit Unions are their own worst enemys.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:07:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:27:54 AM EDT
I have been a member of a cuople of useless unions.  Most of the time they are just a tool of management, or worse an impediment to individuals of ability.

I don't like the corruption in the unions and the politics involved in getting assignments.

Unions have no place in my life, and I don't have to pay them the blackmail for working.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:55:38 AM EDT
I think unions still have a place, But...

 My present Union AFSCME has done everthing they can to see that my co workers and I don't get paid fairly for the work we do. We make 6-8 $ less an hour than the nat avg.
 Tried to change Unions but got shot down and stomped on by AFSCME for being trouble-makers and rocking the gravy boat !!!
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:58:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:00:15 PM EDT
I'm in a right to work state. I have worked for a large international company employing thousands of the most worthless union workers you could ever see. I was threatened to join or else, needless to say I told them where they could stick it. I was then promoted to management very fast and loved everyday I had to work there. Even opened a plant in another state (non union) that did better quality of work. Some people care about the fruits of their labor and take pride in their work, the others just join the union. At one time they were necessary, now they are corrupted!
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:11:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 12:22:18 PM EDT by The_Beer_Slayer]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:25:11 PM EDT
My late brother-in-law drove semi for 40+ years. Paid teamster's dues when he was unemployed, even. Come time to retire, he has to prove he paid the dues for all that time. Goddern union ain't got clerks and computers??
UAW goes on strike here. Negotiator decides there isn't any progress and goes home for Christmas. Comes back a month later. They finally settle for the original offer!! What's wrong with these pictures?? The union boss mindset is 100 years behind the times is what is wrong.  Wally world treats their employees better than any union would.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:32:40 PM EDT
i'm all for folks having the ability to organize.

do i 'support' them? sure...with every union-made product or service i pay for.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:41:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 1:13:38 PM EDT by GI_Brat]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:43:22 PM EDT
Governmentally over-privileged unions don't jive with capitalism.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:01:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 1:02:37 PM EDT by Helldog40]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:03:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:04:25 PM EDT
Yes I support Unions. Yes I support Organized Labor. And Yes I buy American. Thats all I have to say on this issue. (In Before The Anti-Union Bashers Show Up..Well most of them anyway.)[img]http://www.bakehead.com/ble/gifs/ble_logo_t1_small.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:09:06 PM EDT
It's not a black and white issue.... too many variable for me to give you a yes/no.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:18:56 PM EDT
Anti-union. May have been necessary during the era of the robber baron, but now more exploitive of the worker than any robber baron ever was. UPS workers had a better deal than any teamster, but the union bosses wanted even more power and a rich pension fund. The result: violence and intimidation forcing a private company to fold to the socialist mafiosos. Sure the companies were exploitive in the past, but this is not the 1920's! It is amazing that we live in the land of the free, but you can't work in some places w/out a union card. Some freedom. If you try to work or get around the mafia (uhh I mean union) you suffer threats & violence. I've a friend that builds houses. Him and one friend together build about one to two houses a year. However, since they don't bow down to the carpenters, electricians, plumbers, etc. they have had equipment stolen, vandilized and even house frames torched! I have no problem with colective barganing. I have a problem with the socialist, violent, intimidation that is the union. Unions are very pro-democrat wich equals anti-gun and anti-freedom. I understand that there are many good union members that believe in the Constituion and I don't mean to paint them with the same brush, but they are (and perhaps not by choice) members of very anti-constitutional organizations. Period. Of course I belong to the Union of the US Navy, but I don't see many people wanting to be scabs here!
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 2:02:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 2:04:11 PM EDT by Pontius]
Unions are not antithetical to Capitalism, they are a part of it.  Just as Capitalism is a part of, dependent upon, and integral to Democracy.  The concept of multiple individuals communicating and making the same choices (the essence of a union) is remarkably similar to your LEGP AR's - just the other half of the equation.

Ayn Rand is a rabid Capitalist, can we not agree on this?  Note her words from "Atlas Shrugged" page 512:

---Tom Colby... head of the Rearden Steel Workers Union.  For ten years, he had heard himself denounced throughout the country, becasue his was a "company union" and because he had never engaged in a violent conflict with management.  This was true: no conflict had ever been necessary; Rearden piad a higher wage scale than any union scale in the country, for which he demanded-and got-the best labor force to be found anywhere---

The problem and the solution in one paragraph.  Every American should read that book.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:01:44 PM EDT

I take great pride in knowing that I managed to break the back of a local union and kept another from organizing elsewhere.

A feather in my cap I'm always pleased to show.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:08:40 PM EDT
I support American labor. I support American unions. I belong to an American union. I buy American EVERY time I can.

Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:25:21 PM EDT
all that harms labor is treason to america,no line can be drawn between these two.if any man tells you he loves america yet he hates labor,he is a liar.if a man tells you he trusts america yet fears labor,he is a fool.          - -abraham lincoln-                              PROUD MEMBER OF PLUMBERS AND PIPEFITTERS LOCAL #430 WE DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!            P.S. IF YOU THINK IM OVERPAYED COME SPEND A DAY IN MY REDWINGS YOU MONKEY MOUTHED BITCH!
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:32:02 PM EDT
I have a simple idea about unions.
If a union gets too large and costly that a private company cannot produce a product at a competitive price, the private company can move out of state, out of country, or go out of business.
This is a safety valve, that works well under Capitalism.
Local, State and Federal employee unions however, do not produce a product, and have no competative price structure, and as such, cannot be stopped buy the host moving out of state, out of country, or going out of business, (even though we sometimes wish they would[:D]
Unionization of Civil Servants should have never started, and should and must be stopped for the good of our country.

Rancid Lance
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:35:03 PM EDT
I'd support unions if they supported the right of employers to have a union free workplace. I see no such parity, however.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:40:37 PM EDT
Moderation in all things, including union power.

San Francisco once had a very powerful longshoremen's union. So powerful, in fact, that they were able to keep container shipping out of the city altogether. I mean, as long as guys were unloading cargo by hand it was good for the union, right? Well, technology can't be held back, so when the City of Oakland offered to install large cranes for container shipping, all the shipping went to that city and now SF has virtually no shipping capacity at all. All those piers that at one time employed thousands of men are now used for artist studios, businesses, etc., but very little (if any) shipping.

The union got what they wanted.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:50:38 PM EDT
Coming from a family of union busting lawyers, my opinion's have been solidified recently with how my mom's airline union abandoned its members and how the scumbag NYC transit union blackmailed the city.  

If unions were run by more educated people, I might think differently, but it seems as though the workers would be better off (in most cases) representing themselves.  
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 5:07:46 PM EDT
I am in a Union.  I was forced to join when my particular career field began to be recognized by employers.  The Union has done nothing for me.  All they do is take my dues every quarter.  

I don't have a problem with Unions in general and if you are in a Union more power to ya!  I just feel that overall they have probably done more damage to the US economy than good.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 7:33:09 PM EDT
I am a retired member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers local 269. I worked in the construction industry for 36 years. I was able to retire at 55 with a full pension that pays more than I took home as a foreman. In addition I have full medical insurance for both my wife and I forever.  The union trained me and kept refering me to jobs on a fair and eqitable basis the whole time. There is no way I could have had such a career and enjoy an early retirement without them.  I am sure there are unions that should be ashamed of themselves, but they are run by human beings who are subject to the same imperfections as anybody else.
  One thing to keep in mind though is that the employers can belong to organisations, hire lawyers and accountants, MBA's, and all manner of management consultants to help them.  Why shouldn't the workers have an organisation to help them? The playing field should be level.

  Yes I support Unions!
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 7:53:25 PM EDT
Here I be.  If it wasn't for our local, we'd be making the same about of chicken scratch all the other illegals in this town make.  Did you know the pipe fitters, plumbers, sheet metal workers and I think one other trade makes more than us DA electricians?  Good for them.  But WTF?

Link Posted: 1/2/2003 7:57:15 PM EDT
On the whole, the biggest thing unions accomplish is not quality, standards, better wages, or worker protection. Unions just drive inflation and keep productivity down IMHO.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 7:57:39 PM EDT
I have not read through the post, but based on the voting, most don't share my opinion. I was once in the union, and I am for organized labor. Now that is not to say that there is not corruption within the unions that causes an overall disconcertion. That said, I think that a truly organized and honest union is a good thing. It will keep both employers and employee's honest.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 8:09:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 8:11:36 PM EDT by Backstop]
Originally Posted By pkennedy:
On the whole, the biggest thing unions accomplish is not quality, standards, better wages, or worker protection. Unions just drive inflation and keep productivity down IMHO.
View Quote

Man, at least here in San Antonio, you couldn't be more wrong.  My local, that's right, my local, does nothing but quality work.  The shop where I work (Nathan Alterman) has a reputation second to none.  We work the big jobs here in town, SBC Center, Convention Center (2 or 3 different times), Adams Mark Hotel, Chase Bank, USAA (I'm out there for the third time in 4 years).  
Come here and I'll take you in the service truck and I'll show you some of the work done by the no journeyman's license, no habla, rat dumb asses!  Some of their stuff is unsafe to the most extreme.
No slam from me man, but you're wrong and I can prove it.  We make money for our contractor on the jobs that the open shops can't do, mostly due to lack of ability/skill.

edit: I should print my post and show our BA- maybe I can get a desk job! [8D]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 8:41:28 PM EDT
Local 42 Plumbers & Pipefitters.
Local 1216 Pipefitter.
Four yrs. of school.
22 yrs. experience.
F' off
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 8:52:33 PM EDT
Well if you had unions you couldn't buy that child labor russian ammo so cheap!   And all those third world guns you shoot were probably built by a child!

 But with out unions the average worker would be FUgged!     Organized labor is probably like induced labor,probably not a good thing(more like case to case issue)!

  Bob  [:D]   [beer]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 9:07:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 9:15:57 PM EDT by Pontius]
Worker protection is not necessarily the mere (and shameful) shielding of the lazy.  It can play a vital safety role.  An employee must have the right to stop an operation if he deigns it to be less that safe: "The airplane is broke, I'm not attempting the flight."  The pressure in my industry is always to go, at almost any cost, regardless of weather, mechanical issues, etc.  It takes either tremendous personal integirty to cancel the flight while risking termination, or a safety net of support that the union provides.  

Next time you walk on an airliner, consider the fact that the crew does not have to choose between the safety of this flight and feeding their children.  They don't have to risk your life for their family's well being. Instead be secure and confident in the knowledge that if the crew feels unsafe about some facet of the flight, they will not depart until all is right.

The white collar worker can afford to push, to live on the edge in the name of performance.  Safety critical functions do not have the same luxury, and this difference in perspective neccesitates union involvement.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 9:16:39 PM EDT
Backstop, you got to remember, you are in Texas my friend.  The unions here are smaller and don't seem to get muddied up in the politics.  The proper amount of organization here is likely beneficial compared to other places in our great country.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 9:36:12 PM EDT
24 years in the IBEW Local 1547, Anchorage, Ak.  Yes I support unions.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:14:59 PM EDT
Unions are nothing but legalized extortion and conspiricy.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:13:28 PM EDT
Unions are not about workers, they are about power. I'm not always happy with how labor gets treated, but I definitely do NOT support unions. Union leaders are as corrupt as the worst politicians and I'll be damned if they'll ever get a nickel out of me to promote and consolidate their own power. It's interesting that the influence of unions is on the wane. Kinda reminds me of the fall of the Soviet Union---they're falling of their own weight.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 12:00:30 AM EDT
Yes, by all means, if you don't mind funding the dismantling of the American Republic by the Democrat Party, or the disarming of America by their cronies on the Left, then by all means keep those union dues coming!

Until the Unions, and, more importantly, their members, decide that they are Americans and that the Left's political agenda is poison for all of us....

[size=4][b]Unions Suck Out Loud![/b][/size=4]

There can be no doubt that the Unions are the Left's best friends and allies.


Eric The(Serious)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 12:16:54 AM EDT
Here are the facts, Jack!


From the Chart: In the past 12 years, [b]LABOR[/b] contributions to DEMOCRATS represent 93% of its contributions, versus 6% to REPUBLICANS!

Now, the only thing you can argue against that is that there is not a [b]dime's worth of difference[/b] between the DEMOCRATS and the REPUBLICANS!

[b]Which is BULLSHIT, of course![/b]

[b]LABOR[/b] thinks there is at least [b]$380,000,000.00 worth of difference[/b] over the last 12 years!


But note that LABOR gives NOTHING to any Third Party! So you LIBERTARIAN Union members should really be miffed!

How does it feel to pay for the DISARMING of the United States?

Warm and fuzzy? Well, I hope y'all all feel great on your retirement benefits!

Eric The(30PiecesOfSilverWasAPittance!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 12:27:41 AM EDT
There seam to be two types of union enviroments.

One is like a church, a well meaning family with honesty and integrity.

The other is a cross between the Spanish Inquisition and the Mafia, which is also a family of sorts.

I have family that have been or are in unions. I have seen were the local was a good thing. I have also [b][i]Personnally[/i][/b] been approached for the purpose of extortion by union managent, and in another incident threatened with violence and the destruction of my personal property.

I was brought in on a "union" lot as a temp specialist since there was no one there [u]qualified[/u] to do the required work. The people I was working with didn't have a clue, yet they were pulling down 3X the money to sit and watch. I was no threat to them, once my small portion of the job was done I would be gone. Yet they still got all bitchy about my being there. They threatened me, and later tried to make good on there threats.

Stupid idiots tried to jump me while I was still wearing a tool belt. I gave them the "Vaughn" treatment. - I never saw either again, but I assume they were home soaking up the insurance and disability payments they earned with there stupidity.

Are there "Good" unions which are good for all parties, maybe so, I just haven't found one personnally.
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