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Posted: 4/12/2006 5:25:56 PM EST
Seems to me, every reputable study has concluded that the "one shot stop" is a myth, that the differences between common handgun rounds (9mm - 45) are minimal, and that many rounds COM does not guarantee incapacitation. Accounts here and elsewhere seems to verify this. However, you usually hear people here just talk about double taps to the chest of a bad guy and not 2+1 drills. So what do you train for to be your main drill? I know there's no one size fits all, but what's the one you try to build muscle memory for?

Poll to come...
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:27:19 PM EST
Yes. (IBTP)

TC
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:28:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 5:29:04 PM EST by topgunpilot20]
Yes, but I drill more than that too.

ETA: This poll is taking awhile.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:28:47 PM EST
2+1, Mozambique, failure drills, I practice 'em all.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:29:24 PM EST
Because I don't get out shooting often enough, I have to concentrate on the basics - meaning accuracy, then speed.

I'd LIKE to get out more often, and plan to after I'm done with other obligations in June.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:30:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
ETA: This poll is taking awhile.



Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:30:37 PM EST
Yes. I also practice them with the targets not vertical. Don't want to build a habit that automatically assumes the head is straight up from the COM.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:31:17 PM EST
Yes.

Every time I go to the range. I practice single targets, then multiples, with one close, and one about 7yds away.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:34:29 PM EST
Yup, even the occasional Mozambique failure drill.

CHP - Chest x2, head, pelvis
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:34:53 PM EST
Hell yeah. While in the Marine Corps we were taught if the target was close enough and they did not go down after 2 center of mass always shot at the head. If the were too far away to accurately shoot at the head which is very hard to hit because it is small and will be moving eratically keep on shooting center of mass.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:37:33 PM EST
Someone needs to explain this "mozambique" thing to me
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:38:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
Yes. I also practice them with the targets not vertical. Don't want to build a habit that automatically assumes the head is straight up from the COM.



I've been thinking about making a custom steel target for a while. It would be a like a B-27 silhouette target, with a steel plate for the head attached by a flexible spring (protected by the body plate). That way when you hit COM, the head would flop around to be more realistic. Anybody already make something like this?
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:39:11 PM EST
i've always wondered what the point of this drill is.

After 2 to the COM is the head going to up there at eye level for a 3rd shot?
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:39:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:
Someone needs to explain this "mozambique" thing to me



"Two to the chest, one to the head. Keep on shooting until they're dead."
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:40:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 5:41:00 PM EST by CitySlicker]
IMHO, Mozambique drills are really the only way to be certain when using a pistol caliber weapon.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:40:42 PM EST
Multiple targets, double tap.

One target, mag dump.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:40:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 5:42:27 PM EST by DukeSnookems]

Originally Posted By Zakk_Wylde_470:
Someone needs to explain this "mozambique" thing to me



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill

"The Mozambique Drill was added to the modern technique of gunfighting by Jeff Cooper based on the experience of one of his students, Mike Rouseau, while on duty in Mozambique. Rouseau was later killed in action in the Rhodesian War.

The Mozambique Drill considers the deficiency of the pistol round in stopping an adversary. Statistics show that reactions in gunfights are extremely irregular -- one must be prepared for the worst. Many times it is the case that after absorbing the trauma of the first shots, the enemy will disregard further ballistic insult. It has been pointed out that simply "more shots" are not the answer. The Mozambique Drill instructs the shooter to place a double-tap in the center of mass, followed by a carefully aimed headshot.

Also known as the 'failure to stop drill' or '2+1 drill'."
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:40:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:41:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
i've always wondered what the point of this drill is.

After 2 to the COM is the head going to up there at eye level for a 3rd shot?

That's the point. Shoot to the head IF there is no reaction to the first shots. It happens.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:41:37 PM EST
Pelvis. Simple mechanics.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:42:24 PM EST
yeah i just didnt know thats what it was it was called.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:43:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
i've always wondered what the point of this drill is.

After 2 to the COM is the head going to up there at eye level for a 3rd shot?


Adrenaline is a fantastic drug.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:43:54 PM EST
NSR- 3 to 5 COM then go to the head if target is still standing
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:44:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 5:47:16 PM EST by fla556guy]
I have been doing 3-4 shots COM, the reason for this is liability. If I have been training mozambique, and I double the chest, and then one the head, I'm going to look like an executioner in court. If I put 4 rounds in his chest and kill him, I'll look like a victim that was defending himself.

Mozambique may be the way to go in SHTF, but not in a SD situation.

If he took 4 rounds COM, and was still standing, and still coming at me, then a HS would probably be the only thing that would work.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:45:38 PM EST
Bang-Bang!!!

Bang!

Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:46:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
I have been doing 3-4 shots COM, the reason for this is liability. If I have been training mozambique, and I double the chest, and then one the head, I'm going to look like an executioner in court. If I put 4 rounds in his chest and kill him, I'll look like a victim that was defending himself.

Mozambique may be the way to go in SHTF, but not in a SD situation.

Sorry, but that's total bullshit. It's either a justified shooting or it isn't.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:48:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By wildearp:
Pelvis. Simple mechanics.



Wrong. Dr. Martin Fackler has rebuked this fallacy on several occasions; the pelvic region is not a better target than center mass.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:52:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
i've always wondered what the point of this drill is.

After 2 to the COM is the head going to up there at eye level for a 3rd shot?

That's the point. Shoot to the head IF there is no reaction to the first shots. It happens.



Seems to be more common than not. Just some anecdotes:

From here: The poster who's brother shot an intruder breaking into his apartment with a 40. First 3(?) rounds COM had no effect.

From the news: The bystander who recently shot the motorist beating up a cop multiple times in the torso with the almighty 45, the bad guy was still strangling the cop until he was shot in the head.

From Glocktalk: The guy who's girlfriend was about to get abducted by hispanic gang members, did the 2+1 drill on 2 of them with a .45 and said they didn't even flinch with the first 2 shots COM but the one to the head put them on the ground immediately.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:54:22 PM EST
I practice/drill with 2+1, but all three are generally upper center mass. I dont take the head shot...two quick shots to slow the target down enough to take a good aimed shot with the third. I tend to drill a few different ways....typically 2+1....but also 2+1+1+1 five shot strings starting with a quick doubletap, then three shots spaced maybe 1/4 - 1/2 a second apart. I like to drill with the 5 shot strings - knowing I will default to my muscle memory, I prefer to have the 5 shot drill what I spend more time on. 2+1 is always first....get warmed up with a box or two of ammo....then finish up with the 5 shot strings.

After that, target practice for accuracy.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:55:14 PM EST
The pelvis is a very large, very strong bone.. Why take your chances trying to crack it when you have a much better chance with the pipes and pump?


NSR 3 to 5 COM.. and not in a little 1/2" group.. Spread the love around... Try to hit as many important things as possable.. Including the head if needed..
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:56:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
i've always wondered what the point of this drill is.

After 2 to the COM is the head going to up there at eye level for a 3rd shot?

That's the point. Shoot to the head IF there is no reaction to the first shots. It happens.



Seems to be more common than not. Just some anecdotes:

From here: The poster who's brother shot an intruder breaking into his apartment with a 40. First 3(?) rounds COM had no effect.

From the news: The bystander who recently shot the motorist beating up a cop multiple times in the torso with the almighty 45, the bad guy was still strangling the cop until he was shot in the head.

From Glocktalk: The guy who's girlfriend was about to get abducted by hispanic gang members, did the 2+1 drill on 2 of them with a .45 and said they didn't even flinch with the first 2 shots COM but the one to the head put them on the ground immediately.

While I'm not familiar with the first, I know the guy from glocktalk was not convicted. Sure, it came up, but any decent defense lawyer will shoot it down. I'd rather be in court than in a coffin. COM shots DO NOT always put an attacker down--even a lot of them.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:57:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By fla556guy:
I have been doing 3-4 shots COM, the reason for this is liability. If I have been training mozambique, and I double the chest, and then one the head, I'm going to look like an executioner in court. If I put 4 rounds in his chest and kill him, I'll look like a victim that was defending himself.

Mozambique may be the way to go in SHTF, but not in a SD situation.

If he took 4 rounds COM, and was still standing, and still coming at me, then a HS would probably be the only thing that would work.



I would think it's more the other way around. 4 shots sounds worse than 3 to a jury I'd think, headshot or not.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:57:42 PM EST
I'm strictly a Liberian Freedom Fighter Method man myself. Dazzle the Tango with pink Capri pants, hightops, and a Halloween mask while ignoring all the rules of marksmanship and running backwards.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:57:54 PM EST
I think till slide lock works. KISS principle
Yeah I know its a dupe video
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:58:01 PM EST
so on glocktalk there's a guy that reportedly shot TWO guys 2+1? Were the gang bangers cryogenically frozen? Quardraplegics?


I mean, it's obvious that a head shot with a 9mm or .45 will drop anyone.....but my point is that - in a real life situation once the fur start flying - the head is not likely to be in the same relation to the COM as it would be on a paper target.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:59:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 5:59:19 PM EST by Zakk_Wylde_470]

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:
"Two to the chest, one to the head. Keep on shooting until they're dead."




Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill

"The Mozambique Drill was added to the modern technique of gunfighting by Jeff Cooper based on the experience of one of his students, Mike Rouseau, while on duty in Mozambique. Rouseau was later killed in action in the Rhodesian War.

The Mozambique Drill considers the deficiency of the pistol round in stopping an adversary. Statistics show that reactions in gunfights are extremely irregular -- one must be prepared for the worst. Many times it is the case that after absorbing the trauma of the first shots, the enemy will disregard further ballistic insult. It has been pointed out that simply "more shots" are not the answer. The Mozambique Drill instructs the shooter to place a double-tap in the center of mass, followed by a carefully aimed headshot.

Also known as the 'failure to stop drill' or '2+1 drill'."



I figured it was something I'd heard of with a fancy name
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 5:59:44 PM EST
You know it just goes to show that if at all possible.. Bring a rifle to the fight, lol!
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:00:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
so on glocktalk there's a guy that reportedly shot TWO guys 2+1? Were the gang bangers cryogenically frozen? Quardraplegics?



actually, they both ended up with their brains all over the pavement. i wish i had a link to the post so you can read it. very informative account of a self-defence shooting. really drives home the point that the nightmare starts AFTER the shooting stops.



I mean, it's obvious that a head shot with a 9mm or .45 will drop anyone.....but my point is that - in a real life situation once the fur start flying - the head is not likely to be in the same relation to the COM as it would be on a paper target.



thus, practicing the drill with targets with the head in different positiions.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:10:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By macro:
I practice/drill with 2+1, but all three are generally upper center mass. I dont take the head shot...two quick shots to slow the target down enough to take a good aimed shot with the third. I tend to drill a few different ways....typically 2+1....but also 2+1+1+1 five shot strings starting with a quick doubletap, then three shots spaced maybe 1/4 - 1/2 a second apart. I like to drill with the 5 shot strings - knowing I will default to my muscle memory, I prefer to have the 5 shot drill what I spend more time on. 2+1 is always first....get warmed up with a box or two of ammo....then finish up with the 5 shot strings.

After that, target practice for accuracy.




You know, I've been kinda thinking about this. The head shot is going to be tough to make, especially after you've fired a couple times, gotten the bad guy's attention, then assessed and made the decision. While you're shooting the BG in the chest, he's gotten inside your OODA loop, and he'll probably be moving if not engaging you by the time you decide to try to shoot the head.

I was wondering if there would be any validity to training not to shoot center of mass, but about 6-8 inches ABOVE center of mass. Maybe draw a triangle from the base of the nose to the nipples and across the chest. A couple solid hits in this triangle will have a pretty good chance of hitting something that will make the BG pay attention, and with multiple hits chances are some will leak over top of any vest. At the same time, this area will move much less than the head as a whole.

Any thoughts? Again, just something I've been kicking around.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:11:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 6:12:20 PM EST by DukeSnookems]

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
so on glocktalk there's a guy that reportedly shot TWO guys 2+1? Were the gang bangers cryogenically frozen? Quardraplegics?



actually, they both ended up with their brains all over the pavement. i wish i had a link to the post so you can read it. very informative account of a self-defence shooting. really drives home the point that the nightmare starts AFTER the shooting stops.



I mean, it's obvious that a head shot with a 9mm or .45 will drop anyone.....but my point is that - in a real life situation once the fur start flying - the head is not likely to be in the same relation to the COM as it would be on a paper target.



thus, practicing the drill with targets with the head in different positiions.



Here it is from Google Cache, highly recommended reading:
tinyurl.com/pg2nq
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:14:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
so on glocktalk there's a guy that reportedly shot TWO guys 2+1? Were the gang bangers cryogenically frozen? Quardraplegics?



actually, they both ended up with their brains all over the pavement. i wish i had a link to the post so you can read it. very informative account of a self-defence shooting. really drives home the point that the nightmare starts AFTER the shooting stops.



I mean, it's obvious that a head shot with a 9mm or .45 will drop anyone.....but my point is that - in a real life situation once the fur start flying - the head is not likely to be in the same relation to the COM as it would be on a paper target.



thus, practicing the drill with targets with the head in different positiions.



Here it is from Google Cache, highly recommended reading:
tinyurl.com/pg2nq



no workie
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:17:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/12/2006 6:18:49 PM EST by DukeSnookems]

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
no workie




Hmm... works for me... try typing in ["failure drill" glocktalk] into google. It should be the 1st link returned. Click on "Cache" and read halfway down the thread.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:18:20 PM EST
I think the point of shooting in the pelvis is to only take that shot after two to center mass.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:19:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By DukeSnookems:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:
no workie




Hmm... works for me... try typing in ["failure drill" glocktalk] into google. It should be the 1st link returned. Click on "Cache" and read halfway down the thread.



working again. thanks.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:20:33 PM EST
Yeah.

So does SHEISLEGEND.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:21:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
I'm still learning the "in" phrases like "breaking leather" and "COM" for center mass.



me, too.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:24:21 PM EST
It's probably presumptuous on your parts to assume that you would have all this time to aim in a confrontation.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:26:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By NwG:
The pelvis is a very large, very strong bone.. Why take your chances trying to crack it when you have a much better chance with the pipes and pump?


NSR 3 to 5 COM.. and not in a little 1/2" group.. Spread the love around... Try to hit as many important things as possable.. Including the head if needed..



Phencyclidine. Keep your options open. I am not saying to just take a pelvis shot. It should be in your bag of tricks, unless you can make head shots on a knife wielding and advancing attacker, when it is raining and dark.

Training targets don't tend to advance and cut you.

Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:26:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
I'm still learning the "in" phrases like "breaking leather" and "COM" for center mass.



Are you working on "FYI" (for "for your information") ASAP (for "as soon as possible") "RV" (for "recreational vehicle") and "ATM" (for "automated teller machine") too?
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:33:48 PM EST
Makes me want to watch Collateral Damage again. Lots of "Mozambique" shooting in that film. I hope to be able to shoot like that someday. I only started on pistols a few months ago.
Link Posted: 4/12/2006 6:40:15 PM EST
Two in the chest, one in the head...makes them dead. And one in the crotch because they deserve it!
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