One of the things I envy most about Christians (and people of similar faiths) is their firm belief in an afterlife where they will retain consciousness of this life and see their loved ones again.

I have no idea what I believe regarding an afterlife but if there is one and I can remember this existence and be reunited with my loved ones then that is about as much as a human can hope for in my opinion.

And if I knew the above were true I would not fear death except for being temporarily removed from my loved ones and the brief painful experience of death itself.

But not knowing the above is true I certainly fear death as the potentially complete end of my existence in every way, shape and form and all the terrifying implications that involves. I think the pain of death itself is as bearable as any similar known level of pain but it is the end of my consciousness and loss of my loved ones (and the pain I know my death would bring them) which would hurt the most.

I could die for a cause, to save a loved one for example, without regret if I KNEW my actions would save them. Be hard to die not knowning for sure because I'd still want to live to protect them until I knew they were safe. But even then I'd miss them terribly and again know my death would bring them pain. And sadly probably guilt, hard to lose a loved one who sacrificed their very life for you. It is a terrible burden.

It would certainly be a cruel cosmic trick if life (and more importantly self awareness and the knowledge of eventual death) were just a random occurance and a temporary one at that. Love would prove to be a cruel trick if our loved ones are indeed lost forever.

One could even take some comfort in the notion of a legacy. I know I could certainly pass easier if I knew I provided for my children and would be remembered for a few generations and my possessions taken care of and valued by my decendents. And one could certainly accept their mortality a bit easier if they had done something great enough to be remembered for a century or more.

But even that is temporary. How many poeple can you name who lived 1,000 years ago in 10 seconds? I imagine most could name 5 at best. So even the greatest men are seldom remembered for eternity. And in about 5 billion years (if man has managed to remain on Earth that long) our sun will Red Giant and almost absorb the planet. The oceans will be burned off and ALL traces of man and any previous life will be burned away forever. If man only ever existed on Earth then it wil be as if we had never been in the first place.

That would indeed be a sad legacy and a difficult pill to swallow. All our achievments, developments, contributions and efforts will have been erased forever. All our lives, loves and the things that we held valuable will be gone. Not even something for extra terrestrial archelogists to discover and know we were once here and lived.

Sometimes I can detach it all in a similar manner that the Samurai followed the teachings of Zen that life is temporary and it is enough to live it brilliantly and with purpose.

But even with that mindset it will be diffcult to let go.

In the end I will fear death.

I only hope there is something else.

I fear living poorly, timidly and futilely far more than I fear death.

Quoted: I fear living poorly, timidly and futilely far more than I fear death.

Certainly things worse than death exists.

But even living purposefully, I will fear death in the end.

I may be quite willing to go at the time when it comes, but if it is truly the end it will be terrible.

Quoted: Athiesm embraces the absurd it states that nothing created us and to nothing we will return, "nothing" is a concept that lacks agency it is the total lack of the power to create or destroy. Reason dictates that obvious truth, something created us and to something we will return.

Well since "I don't know" I don't think I qualify as a atheist. But it is that same "I don't know" that prevents me from subscribing to any relgion.

We need not have been "created." Conditions may simply have permitted us to exist. We could be a random cosmic happenchance as easily and as plausibly as any creation scenario of any religion.

I personally think it is man's vanity and fear of death which led him to the notion of religion and us being created because we are "special."

But in the end, "I don't know."

And quite frankly neither do you. You may "believe" something, but that is not the same.

Quoted: I do not fear death, I fear dieing in a painful and miserable way.

I think I'm the opposite.

While I'd certainly prefer a painless, peaceful death for myself and my loved ones who would endure it with me, IF I KNEW there was something else I could endure it as I endured all other previous pains of life knowing I will get through it.

I'd choose pain over finality if I knew the pain would mean I'd see my loved ones again.

Quoted: SteyrAUG, Ecclesiastes was written for you.  It's the inspired realizations of a man (most seem to believe Solomon) who has everything, and sees that everything is not enough.  Here are a few quotes which you all but wrote: 1:1-3 The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem: "Meaningless! Meaningless!"    says the Teacher.  "Utterly meaningless!    Everything is meaningless." What does man gain from all his labor    at which he toils under the sun? 1:11 There is no remembrance of men of old,    and even those who are yet to come  will not be remembered    by those who follow. 2:17-21 So I hated life, because the work that is done under the sun was grievous to me. All of it is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.  I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me.  And who knows whether he will be a wise man or a fool? Yet he will have control over all the work into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. This too is meaningless.  So my heart began to despair over all my toilsome labor under the sun.  For a man may do his work with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then he must leave all he owns to someone who has not worked for it. This too is meaningless and a great misfortune. 3:19-22  Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.  Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth? So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him? 6:7 All man's efforts are for his mouth,    yet his appetite is never satisfied. 12:13-14 Now all has been heard;    here is the conclusion of the matter:  Fear God and keep his commandments,    for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment,    including every hidden thing,    whether it is good or evil.

I'm aware my thoughts have been thought before by other men. And thanks for the quotes.

Quoted: Quoted: I fear living poorly, timidly and futilely far more than I fear death. This sums it up for me.  Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

I agree with your statement, but I'm not entirely sure we're saying the same thing.

My attitude is not only about how I might die, but what I accomplish with my life. I want my life to have made a difference when it's over, and not just in how it ends.

That said, I certainly gave a lot of thought to life and death and the value they hold before I took my present job. I'm doing something valuable with my life and I know that, if I die doing it, I will have done something valuable with my death as well.

No orange jumpsuits for me or anyone on my team.

Quoted: And here we see one of the great evils that a naturalist view of the universe produces: The idea of life as a gigantic cosmic mistake.

I don't see that idea as evil.

I see it as "I don't know."

The cosmic joke scenario is just that, a possible scenario.

The idea that conditions merely existed for life and it happens wherever conditions permit is no more absurd than the Hebrew story of creation.

But right now..."We don't know."

Quoted: The simplest single celled organism is as complex as a 747 aircraft. But it is odd how nobody seems to think that 747's just exist....

That is because we KNOW where a 747 comes from.

Quoted: I will further add that "making a difference" is the most futile of all persuits if one does not believe in Cosmic Justice or the one who brings it about. If existence really is nothing more than happenstance of a chaotic universe, then what good does it do to do anything? Whatever you build, another will destroy. Whatever you accomplish will be forgotten. If we are mere pawns in a great cosmic happening that proceeds along its own path all of its own volition, then even the concept of free will goes out the window.

OK, I find it absurd that a person would only be good because they fear the judgement of a God.

Yes, in the end all our endevours could prove to be for nothing. That was the point of my original post.

However, I dont agree that our civilization is futile even if we are a cosmic joke. It would be sad, especially given things like love. But I'd hardly call that development futile.

If we were proven to be a cosmic joke I would not devolve and live in anarchy. I would live my life to the best of my capacity if for no other reason than this is the only life I get. One does what is "right for the sake of doing the right thing, not out of fear of getting caught or sitting in judgement later. If that is all that makes a person do the right thing then they are truly lesser men.