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12/15/2017 11:52:10 PM
Posted: 6/16/2001 12:27:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/19/2001 12:01:00 PM EST by Kuiper]
Interesting oped piece from TIME of all places.
[b]Europeans are Wrong About Bush — and We're Wrong About Europeans[/b] [i]Both sides have smug caricatures of the other. But Europeans have more to lose if that continues[/i] Thursday, Jun. 14, 2001 Europe, which produced Rembrandt long ago, now tends to see the world, or at least America, as a crude cartoon. George W. Bush is the European cartoonist's dream. When the European elite — politicians, bureaucrats, commentators, intellectuals — look at the president, they see a caricature of everything their anti-Americanism indulges itself by despising: Despoiler of the environment, barbarous executioner, ignorant Texas oil fat cat, wild-hair militarist, uncultured slob. The European anti-Americanism is an old habit that began almost as soon as the smoke cleared in 1945 — Yankee Go Home; leave the Marshall Plan money by the door. Americans don't pay attention to it anymore — in part because, at the moment, a substantial number of Americans share the European opinion of Bush, and in part because Americans, if they think about it at all, have a bracingly contemptuous view of the European Union, of its hilariously astigmatic bureaucrats, and its Monopoly money. Perhaps Europeans, the leadership classes anyway, should be more careful about George W. Bush and the country that he has come among them to represent. Much of the European opinion of Bush is based on error or on dishonesty (about the Kyoto Treaty, for example, which the Europeans don't want and will not accept) that is artfully obscured by aesthetic distaste, a gaudy and festive condescension. The British are brilliantly supercilious about George W. Bush. You hear them at their dinner parties, scintillating and twittering like bright, meat-eating birds while the American sits among them, stolid and monosyllabic as Br'er Bear, and thinks to himself, "Ah'm onna knock yo' haid clean off!" But the Brits are cousins, and Churchill's mother came from the colonies, and all that, and even during World War II, when the Brits had the effrontery to complain that the American soldiers engaged in saving their islands were "overpaid, oversexed and over here," they said it with a rueful smile and, even, perhaps, some concealed sense of gratitude. But beyond Calais and heading east on the continent, where cousinship grows more tenuous by the kilometer, a more substantial antipathy materializes. There, the anti-Americanism hardens into an aggressive self-importance that seems a little foolish, given the unwieldy bureaucratic organization of the European idea, and the unreliable patchwork of old fears and fragile utopianisms that comprises the Union. How much of the European Union is a wonderful idea? How much of the wonderful idea arises from a mere terror of Germany, the monster in the midst that must be neutralized by uneasy absorption into the larger enterprise?
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Link Posted: 6/16/2001 12:28:05 PM EST
Henry James is gone, and in any case, perhaps he was too subtle, as who should say, to do justice to early twenty-first century encounters between Americans and Europeans. If we live in an age of vicious cartoons, it's important for each side to understand the cartoon that the other side is drawing. I do not think that the Europeans, in their smugness, have thought it important to notice the American cartoons of Europe, which are as fierce and nasty as European portrayals of the idiot Bush. The historical importance of Europe to America is vastly diminished — which may, of course, be the buried reason for some of the current anti-Americanism. American genes and memories, once so dominated by Europe as to engender a chronic American inferiority complex, now come from everywhere else in the world. There remains no American inferiority complex regarding Europe; quite the reverse. There's an old line about a man feeling as smugly virtuous as a Christian holding four aces. That — Europeans should understand — would be George W. Bush. As for themselves, they should explore the possibility that they are vegetarians holding a pair of fours.
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Link Posted: 6/16/2001 12:41:16 PM EST
My opinion - HEY EUROPE! [moon]
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 12:51:03 PM EST
Do we really care if they understand us?
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 12:51:51 PM EST
I am a Dutchman, which happens to be in continental Europe. Contrary to what our leaders would like to believe, Europe consists of sovereign countries. General attitude of these leaders is downright offensive, but not too unusual. I remembered when Klintong entered the white house and all of the european countries were going apeshit Because Bush sr didnt get reelected. It's the same all over again. So do Europeans understand the USA? Some of them do, and the latter of them couldnt care less. It's the same the other way around. Kuiper
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 12:54:50 PM EST
Well, I think...yawnzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 1:15:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By LS1Eddie: Well, I think...yawnzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Thats about what I think...Who really cares what the europeans think about us? If they want to talk shit I say we just cut off their supply of Levis and see how all of those french fried faggots like that. And who are the english to talk anyways? They still pay millions per year to take care of the pansy ass royalty. Michael
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 1:15:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 3:30:12 PM EST
Is it just because CNN is so adamently against Bush that the Europeans developed such a bad view of him? Cause this is the first time they have met him in person.
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 3:45:21 PM EST
First of all, what are you doing reading Slime magazine? I have to say that was a pretty lamely written article. The best newsweekly, bar none, is The Economist [url]www.economist.com[/url] They skip all the fluffy and social trend-manufacturing, they cover all of the world and the most important events, and their coverage of science and technology issues is about the best you'll find in a mainstream magazine. They take positions and argue them with sound and rational arguments. For example, they're for drug legalization and gun control (I know, I know...) They do it without sensationalism, and everything is written incredibly well. So if you read/subscribe to Newsweak, Slime, or US News.......why?
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 3:49:09 PM EST
I just saw the title on the AOL start up page it intrigued me. I dont normally read time or newsweek much less subscribe to them...
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 6:17:21 PM EST
The sun has set on the "Empire" Their biggest claim to fame is some long dead painters and the Citroen? The trains do still run on time We do get some spiffy sports cars from them. (Signed by the isolationist in training.) PS Can we have a war game with this EU army? Can I be there when we hand them back their asses?
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 6:04:58 AM EST
If I understand, most (of all ) the people of this forum are right-wing people. Traditionally they are isolationists, they tend to look USA as a happy island detached from the planet. USA has resources to do so if they want. Probably if there was a Republican President instead of Franklin Roosevelt, I can only speak german now. There are things, for us europeans, that generates misunderstandings about the way of thinking and living of US people. For example the 1st and the 2nd emendament of US Constitution. Our newspaper and media (I can talk about Italy, but I read sometimes UK online newspaper also) are simply pieces of garbage, that give all but INDIPENDENT information. The thing that makes europeans angry toward americans is the attitude to do what they want, regardless of the local laws. In Italy there is a treaty that FORBID to NATO countries that have personell/bases here to store or use nuclear weapons in the italian territory. Of course in the Aviano base, during the Kosovo affair, we discovered that anyway USAF was storing tactical nuclear weapons. No surprise to me. I saw with my eyes a ballistic nuclear missile site in the north of Italy that, according to govt., shouldn't exists. Last, but not least, the episode of the USMC Prowler that, flying under the cables of a cableways, caused the death of 22 people. The US. govt. never allowed (enforcing an agreement with Italy) the pilots to be prosecuted in Italy but only by an US Martial Court. Europeans, me included, asked what could happen if an Italian/German/French/Spanish pilot, while flying with his fighter on Aspen, would take 22 American lives. Anyway, I think that the really ones to blame for this situation of weakness are only the europeans govts. Knowing each other? The best way to abolish prejudices and to know not only the dark sides of each country but also what could be the good ones... and I ask to myself if, in this "global" world this is still possible...
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 8:18:22 AM EST
Mainly to PaoloAR15: I don't pretend to speak for all American's, we are a pretty diverse population and our viewpoints go all over the place. For myself, I get pretty tired of the European attitude that we are all ignorant, hick, cowboys who don't "understand" how the world should be run. From where I stand it appears that we are expected to extend our people, and resources, to fix world problems. Later, it appears that we are expected to stand meekly by when it is over, and get bashed for being "American's with no manners." You can't have it both ways, expecting us to be a bully on demand, then kick us in the shins when our/your work is over. There is much to be admired and there is much to disdain and laugh at in both cultures. Isolationist? Quite frankly I grew up (in the 1950's) being taught that we were fortunate to have not had the world wars fought on our soils and that we should help the world where possible, including our former enemies. As an adult, I've watched friend's/neighbors/countrymen die in foreign lands trying to make things right for people other than Americans. I don't believe that many other countries compare in what they give back to the world in people and resources. In that same time period I've also seen American's vilified almost constantly by the people of many other nations. Why is it such a surprise that we are fed up with it all, and feel that we should just let the rest of you continue to be mired in the problems of your own making? Do we always do the right thing? No, as in any situation we sometimes let self interest, or just plain ignorance, guide us into the wrong stance. However this country is full of good, honest hardworking people who are constantly trying to do the right thing and are willing to correct their course of action if proven wrong.If Europeans believe that we don't understand them, they should also look inward and ask themselves if it is possible that their own culture is making them blind to things that, though contrary to their beliefs, is also right and good. Give it a rest, Americans are not as limited in scope and sophistication as you would like to believe. Just because we don't share your (European) viewpoint doesn't necessarily mean that we are wrong. The truth is that your own history, and your own cultural upbringing may make you as wrong as you believe us to be. I have heard many times that American's do not understand how to be flexible and diplomatic. Is it possible that this means that we do not allow ourselves to always be forced into compliance to other nation's wishes? Is it possible that our viewpoint, while not popular has some merit, at least some of the time?
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 8:36:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2001 8:34:50 AM EST by prk]
Originally Posted By raven: First of all, what are you doing reading Slime magazine? I have to say that was a pretty lamely written article. The best newsweekly, bar none, is The Economist [url]www.economist.com[/url] They skip all the fluffy and social trend-manufacturing, they cover all of the world and the most important events, and their coverage of science and technology issues is about the best you'll find in a mainstream magazine. They take positions and argue them with sound and rational arguments. For example, they're for drug legalization and gun control (I know, I know...) They do it without sensationalism, and everything is written incredibly well. So if you read/subscribe to Newsweak, Slime, or US News.......why?
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I let my subsription to The Economist drop because of their portrayal of American as uncivilized gun nuts - this while their own subjects are getting robbed and raped at 40% higher levels thanks to their "progressive" laws. Other than that I liked it. [red][size=4] P.R.K.
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 8:41:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By rain: Is it possible that our viewpoint, while not popular has some merit, at least some of the time?
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Amen Rain!!!! Sometimes, I wish I had the words that so many of you seem to.
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 8:56:56 AM EST
To Rain Basically we can share views on a lot of issues: -I am tired to see european newspaper to call on USA for solving that or this problem and, when the problem is solved, to say that US interference in Europe is too high. I say that IF we want less US interference, maybe is the case to solve our problems by ourselves. -I don't generalize. Never. But from what I read on this EU subject on this forum the feeling of a vintage isolationism (or anyway a "cultural" isolationims)I have could be justified. I am not saying that American with a culture don't exist. -I don't say that we europeans don't have anything to learn from US. On the contrary. 1st and 2nd emendament are something still far to be reached from European mentality. I will always remember that on a news program was reported that in a town in USA, black people was protesting because the Governor (or maybe the Mayor???) forbid a ku klux klan demostration. why? Because it was an infringment of the 1st Emendament about the freedom of speech. Here the freedom of speech is always followed by a "yes, but..." The question is... is it important to understand each other ?
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 9:30:06 AM EST
Europeans seem to have short memories. It was the United States that pulled their butts out of the fire in WWI and WWII, but I guess that is ancient history, and since they don't have to raise their arm to a fuerher (sp), their world is all cozy now that they are an EU. We fought a revolution to seperate ourselves from England. We took the best ideas of their laws, and the brillant men of the revolutionary era designed the Constitution, and prefaced it with the Declaration of Independence. Utah will soon host the 2001 winter Olympics, and every piece of Euro-trash will descend upon the areas within 125 to 150 miles of the games. They will be treated with respect from us Westerners, but just as with other games, they will exhibit a haughty euro attitude. And you wonder why most Americans could give a shit less about what Europeans think. A majority of Euro's a avowed socialists who have been programmed that their government will take care of them from cradle to grave, oh just send us all of your tax dollars. Europeans will look down on the average American who believes in the tenants of the Constitution, but forget that they have been buffered for countless centuries with one petty set of pussified royality after another, until the Germans changed the face of europe. When was the last time that our laws were upheld when broken by those visiting from a foreign land. Most of the time they are released, and catch the first plane out. That is the end of that. There was a saying that Europeans are like watermellons. They are green on the outside and Red on the inside.
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 10:19:52 AM EST
hey europe, suck it
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 10:45:59 AM EST
Its insignificant who they are. What's important to them is they know who we are. Arock out.
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 10:46:01 AM EST
I had MUCH respect for ALL the Asian countries I visited, as they respected themselves. CULTURE is a must, and they take visitors at face value. Central America also earns respect, it has its own personna that is unique and has culture based honor, despite poverty and percieved oppression. Europe is a joke to me. Before we saved them, they were right where they are now. Thinking they are the gift of the world. After the Berlin Conference of 1884-1885 to divide Africa, Europe went to carry out their socialist agendas, and more than once...(ATTN here PAOLO) sometimes got their heads handed to them.....If one loses to broken bolt action rifles using airplanes and mustard gas its no wonder we had to come get Hitler out of your butts.... My point here is Not to belittle Europe, but simply to say 'Matthew 7:5 - Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. '
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 11:18:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2001 11:17:05 AM EST by Ponyboy]
PaoloAR15- I don't mean to sound like a jackass, but I could really care less about us having tactical nukes in Italy. As you can tell from many of the posts on this thread, many Americans feel the same way. The fact is, we all know the first time yall get into trouble and are getting your ass kicked the first phone call comming out of your country is going to go to us, as in the U.S. It is very possible that those missles that yall detest so much may save your ass one day. If it bothers yall so bad then cut off diplomatic relations. Refuse entrance to anyone trying to enter your country with an American passport. Stop normal trade with us. See if we give a shit, we will just take vacations to Sweden instead. You won't do that either, because you need our tourism money. It would make a gigantic dent in your economy if we didn't come over there to look at your old buildings and leaning towers. What it really boils down to is that most of us don't care what any of yall think, because we know that yall need us. No matter how much shit and misinformation is spread, no matter who is President, no matter what we do that pisses yall off, deep down inside you are very grateful that we are your allies and that you aren't on our shitlist. Hell, most of the countries over there owe us from times past anyways. Our countries governments might try to forgive and forget thoses past debts, but the citizens over here don't forget. We have loaned many of the european countries money that we never made them pay back, firearms that were never returned, we helped them rebuild after they declared war on us and forced us to destroy their country. Remember that shit yall pulled with Mussolini during world war II? Yall owe us from that because we didn't turn your whole country into a giant glass parking lot. If yall dislike Americans so much and the way that we act, then tell us to get the hell out of your country and don't come back. It won't bother most of us, I promise....We already got pizza from yall, what else have you got over there that we need? Next time yall decide to talk trash about Americans just remember that yall still owe us one for not making yall glow in the dark or giving all of yall a free tooth whitening. Michael
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 11:33:04 AM EST
***I don't mean to sound like a jackass... No comment needed. ...you need our tourism money. It would make a gigantic dent in your economy if we didn't come over there to look at your old buildings and leaning towers. They fixed the tower. ***...We already got pizza from yall, what else have you got over there that we need? Pizza is an American invention. ***Next time yall decide to talk trash about Americans just remember that yall still owe us one for not making yall glow in the dark or giving all of yall a free tooth whitening. I believe our Italian friend was praising America. Attitudes like this certainly don't help us make friends. You are also making your fellow southerners look foolish and unfriendly, which we most certainly are not
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 11:44:33 AM EST
Cry me a f*cking river....The tower still leans, we got most of the ingredients for pizza from them, and Im not here to make friends with cultures that do nothing other than complain about us for the most part. Another thing, when I post my opinion here I am speaking for myself not for my southern brethren. If you want to take up for an area of the world that gladly takes our handouts, that come out of my pocket via taxes, that turn around an badmouth us because they think they are a superior culture and we are a bunch of red neck hillbillies then that is your perogative. I however will not. Like Ive said before, they need us, we don't need them. Michael
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 11:54:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Cry me a f*cking river....The tower still leans, we got most of the ingredients for pizza from them, and Im not here to make friends with cultures that do nothing other than complain about us for the most part. Another thing, when I post my opinion here I am speaking for myself not for my southern brethren. If you want to take up for an area of the world that gladly takes our handouts, that come out of my pocket via taxes, that turn around an badmouth us because they think they are a superior culture and we are a bunch of red neck hillbillies then that is your perogative. I however will not. Like Ive said before, they need us, we don't need them. Michael
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I'll suggest to read more carefully my posts. If you want. Or if you can. Any way there is always the 1st Emendament...
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 12:07:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By PaoloAR15: I'll suggest to read more carefully my posts. If you want. Or if you can. Any way there is always the 1st Emendament...
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Like I said before I wasn't trying to be a jackass and all of my comments were not directed solely on you but on the europen culture in general. I was merely stating my opinion. You can talk shit as much as you want, Im not trying to suppress your right to express yourself either. Not that the 1st Amendment even has anything to do with you, unless you are an American citizen. Michael
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 12:32:28 PM EST
"Do Europeans really understand us?" You don't know how many times that question has kept me awake at night. What if the Europeans DONT understand us? My god, WHAT THEN?!?!
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 6:45:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/18/2001 6:43:44 PM EST by prk]
Originally Posted By t rex: Utah will soon host the 2001 winter Olympics, and every piece of Euro-trash will descend upon the areas within 125 to 150 miles of the games.
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We ARE going to make sure they are quarantined, disinfected, and tested at all ports of entry, aren't we?? [red][size=4] P.R.K.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 8:03:54 PM EST
Non, Etates-Unis cretains.
Link Posted: 6/18/2001 11:03:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By t rex: Europeans seem to have short memories. It was the United States that pulled their butts out of the fire in WWI and WWII, but I guess that is ancient history, and since they don't have to raise their arm to a fuerher (sp), There was a saying that Europeans are like watermellons. They are green on the outside and Red on the inside.
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OH YES, and the main WW2 battle was Pearl Harbour, and it was the USMC who took the Berlin, and it was very peace-keeping to drop the A-bomb over already defeated Japan. And of cause, you USA-men did a lot of good to the Viennam, Libya, Iraqui, Serbian [b]people[/b] [:(!]... Now i want to see if your mr Bush has enough balls to start the NMD, and what will happen when this system will prove itself a "XXI century Panama e-canal", a multi-billion failure? I wish you good luck with your hi-tech, one day it will take its toll on you. The [b]only[/b] thing i'm jealous in USA is a 2nd amendment. But, i hope, one day we make ours - don't loose yours.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 12:05:53 AM EST
Whether NMD works or not is irrelevant. It's just an excuse to transfer public tax revenues into defense contractors' bank accounts. There's no reason to think that the threat of retaliation wouldn't work against Iraq or North Korea the way it has worked against the USSR and China.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 12:12:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/19/2001 2:04:18 AM EST by mattja]
Yes, and the Russians brought freedom and prosperity to the poor, oppressed souls in Poland, Ukraine, Baltics, Hungary, Afganistan, Chechnya, ... :) The problem in Europe is one of resentment. At the end of WWII they hoped we would go away just like we did following WWI. Instead, we took an active role, which of course, resulted in the resentment that is still present today. In the end, we did the right thing, and most Europeans are aware of that. Someone had to stop the USSR and at the end of WWII no nation was in the position to do it except for us. I always wondered how history would have been different had Patton been given the go ahead to kick the Russians out of Europe. He was ready and willing, but I guess by that time we all needed a rest.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 12:31:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/19/2001 12:29:45 AM EST by Kuiper]
The thing that surprises me is that so many of the members that are, like me, from Europe are defending their polichickens. Personally, I heard the statements made by our Prime-Minister Kok. And he still is disappointed not to see Gwhore in the WH. And he will express that in every possible way, enters Bush on a European tour. Biggest target of opportunity for the elite leftists. Now it's clear he's not interested in what pres. Bush thinks of him. He already has his opinion at the ready. European leadership has presented itself as the antiUSA commitee. This was Bush's first trip to Europe, now I can only think and laugh on the impression they left on him. A certain election faul-up during a press conference comes to mind......what an asshole [;)] On a personal note, I think Europes polichickens need to rethink their strategy. But do I really care? Hell no. It's easy scoring for them. Gonna spend some time with my brother, he just returned from Ethiopia. Glad he's home safely, and it's time better spent than commenting on polichickens that are closer to the ancient Roman senate than they will ever like to see. Kuiper
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 3:37:32 AM EST
"and it was very peace-keeping to drop the A-bomb over already defeated Japan." My GAWD! Who wrote YOUR history books?
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 3:42:55 AM EST
And the Soviet Union declared war on Japan the day after the 'peace-keeping' A-bomb was dropped on Hiroshima! Pretty good timing? Huh? Eric The(NothingLikePilingOn)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 4:20:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: Like I said before I wasn't trying to be a jackass... Not that the 1st Amendment even has anything to do with you, unless you are an American citizen. Michael
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You have to admit that you're coming on a little strong here. Paolo was just pointing out a few things that have been in the news or that he personally observed in the past few years. Rather than take an "Ugly American" attitude about it, why not agree with him that America is a great place, but like any other place, has its faults. As for your First Amendment remark: The Bill of Rights only enumerates rights that [b]all[/b] men possess, regardless of their nationality. Some governments don't recognize this, but that doesn't take away the truth of the matter. From the Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that [b]all men[/b] are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that [b]among[/b] these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." FMCDH Semper Fidelis Jarhead out. ----------------- "Our legislators are not sufficiently apprised of the rightful limits of their power: that their true office is to declare and enforce only our natural rights and duties and to take none of them from us." --Thomas Jefferson
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 4:27:26 AM EST
I really don't care if Europe understands us. In my estimation, they have NO CLUE what it means to be an "American." Bit like I said, I really don't care. I don't really even WANT their "understanding." What I'd like to see, rather than the never ending criticism they send our way, is a little freekin' grattitude. What for, you say??? 1. WW1 2. WW2 3. Efffectively neutralizing Saddam Hussein, who was coming after Europe next. 4. Slobo Milosevic. How QUICKLY they forget. 5. Rescuing Russia from poverty, starvation, and financial collapse during the Stalin years (Five Year Plans) 6. Rebuilding Europe after WW2. And the list could go on. That all JUST this century.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 4:50:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By Max The (2 post) Helldiver: OH YES, and the main WW2 battle was Pearl Harbour, and it was the USMC who took the Berlin, and it was very peace-keeping to drop the A-bomb over already defeated Japan. And of cause, you USA-men did a lot of good to the Viennam, Libya, Iraqui, Serbian [b]people[/b] [:(!]... Now i want to see if your mr Bush has enough balls to start the NMD, and what will happen when this system will prove itself a "XXI century Panama e-canal", a multi-billion failure? I wish you good luck with your hi-tech, one day it will take its toll on you. The [b]only[/b] thing i'm jealous in USA is a 2nd amendment. But, i hope, one day we make ours - don't loose yours.
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1. No one maintains that Pearl Harbor was the main battle of WWII. It was the first time in over a hundred years that the US was directly attacked, so it is considered important here. 2. No one maintains that the USMC took Berlin. I'm pretty sure that was the Soviets. You'll notice though, that they [b]kept every square meter they "retook" from the Wehrmacht![/b] As for US forces, we gave all re-taken territory back as soon as we could find someone to give it back to. 3. Japan was defeated before the bombs were dropped? You are the only one who thinks so. The Japanese were fanatical warriors and never surrendered. They fought to the last man in all battles, and most of those were for crappy little south Pacific coral atolls. How hard would they have fought for the home islands? Conservative estimates called for Allied (in other words, US) losses of approximately 1,000,000 men. They were told to surrender or face terrible consequences. They didn't, so they did. 4. As for US influence in the international community, we're the only ones who seem to be able to muster the sack to fight a just fight, even when there's a price to pay. VietnamLibyaIraqSerbia: all somebody else's problem in another part of the world where no one else has the sack to step in and do what has to be done. 5. The Panama Canal was a "multi-billion failure?" You're the only one who thinks so. 6. Keep hoping that you'll get a Second Amendment. That's how important things get done, right? Just hope for it. FMCDH Semper Fidelis Jarhead out. ------------------- "If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom -- go from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:37:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By PaoloAR15: If I understand, most (of all ) the people of this forum are right-wing people. Traditionally they are isolationists, they tend to look USA as a happy island detached from the planet. USA has resources to do so if they want. Probably if there was a Republican President instead of Franklin Roosevelt, I can only speak german now.
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Lemme get this straight. You Europeans actually believe that had a Republican been elected president of the United Sates of American in 1940, our country would have turned the other cheek and not responded to A) An unprovoked attack on various military facilities by the Japanese, and B) Being declared war upon by the Germans? You pretty much just reinforced every negative stereotype we have of you Europeans. All I can say is that if there is ever again another large scale conflict in Europe, don't bother to come crying to me for handouts. Unlike my ancestors, I won't send you as much as a Daisy Red Rider BB gun.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:57:01 AM EST
Anyone that doesn't assist our less fortunate global brothers and sisters when asked to by the humanitarian UN, should be tried for treason by the International Criminal Court.
Link Posted: 6/19/2001 11:58:00 AM EST
Okay, this thread can go on for ever. It has been a very good discussion so far, but right now I am reading deja vu's of arguments already exchanged. EU attitude towards the US sucks bigtime right now, and prolly has everything to do with the BS kyoto treaty and the missile defense system. Wheter or not old soars of past wars have anything do with it I'll leave in the middle. Kuiper
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