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Link Posted: 6/3/2023 9:18:54 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
Unfortunately
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Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 9:32:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 9:41:28 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
Unfortunately
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either in Vietnam or the USSR


John McCain was and remains a giant POS
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 9:43:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Most definitely.
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 9:43:31 PM EDT
[#5]
I think a lot of them ended up Russia. Would not be surprised if something was set up like what was covered in Nelson Demille's novel "The Charm School."
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 10:32:21 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:
I spent a year in Hanoi as commander of DET2, JTF-FA.   I had a great USMC major who was my 2IC and he had a girlfriend at the embassy so i left him there in Hanoi most of the time to take care of the home office.  I've been everywhere in Vietnam.  From the Chinese border down to the Gulf of Thailand and Phu Quoc Island.   There are no hidden jails.  There are no prisoners.

If there were prisoners held beyond Operation Homecoming it was deliberate and they were killed.

our highest Priority during each recovery period was what we termed LKA cases---Last Known Alive.  That is those service members who when they last left our control, care, custody--were known to be alive.  We KNOW they were alive when the Viet' got them.  Yet they didn't make it home in '73.   What the fuck happened to them?   The prevailing wisdom is that they died under torture and/or general mistreatment and the Viet's are to embarrassed to admit it.

Slowly slowly we are closing the circle and accounting for those we left behind in that War.   I did my time and was proud to have helped account for a few.  i've posted a couple recovery effort threads on this forum

/r

SteveH
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I have been to Vietnam twice. I do not believe they had secret prisons loaded with POWs after we left.

The Vietnamese have worked with the US to account for all the missing. Read the posts of the people who worked on those recovery efforts.
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 10:32:23 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
This I believe. I also believe it's plausible that the Soviets and/or Chinese took those with intelligence value, and likely executed them when they'd been wrung out.

I don't believe we knowingly left people under duress, especially if we had actionable intel on their whereabouts. I can say that with a high degree of confidence, because I participated in one attempt. One of our unified combatant commands spent millions - probably tens of millions - committing very serious people and firepower in an attempt to take Americans back from a hostile force in a sovereign country.

This was no half-hearted bullshit...and I'd bet my bottom dollar there are a half dozen guys on here, green and blue, who know exactly what I'm talking about. I hope the story is declassified some day, I think it would do a lot to restore some confidence in the covenant that our country has with its military.

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That’s awesome to hear

I hope it gets declassified someday too- I bet it’s a helluva tale
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 10:39:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Yep.
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 10:42:45 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
America has probably left behind soldiers in every war from our time in Russia 1920 to present.

POWs in a gulag have short life spans
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This
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 10:43:02 PM EDT
[#10]
I am sure was some.
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 10:47:27 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:

Where was he shot down? Alabama ?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
McStain did everything he could to hide the fact that there where POW's when he got elected

Where was he shot down? Alabama ?

Well, he crashed far more than the one shot down.
5?

Link Posted: 6/3/2023 10:50:59 PM EDT
[#12]
I'd expect they were executed if they had no political bargaining value.
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 10:54:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Delta was training for a rescue OP, not sure what the year was I would have to research. Apparently there was credible intel, then the OP was scrapped.
Link Posted: 6/3/2023 10:56:39 PM EDT
[#14]
yes.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 12:58:18 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
Yes.

Probably not anymore, but there were.
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Link Posted: 6/4/2023 12:59:22 AM EDT
[#16]
Yes, but they may have been moved elsewhere.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 1:08:37 AM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
Those two articles on McCain make me sick. Absolutely horrible!
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And he was this close to being POTUS.  This is why we cannot allow the RNC to crown their chosen nominees.  Ron Paul would have investigated the POWs.  No other GOP candidate then or since has had the guts or the interest.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 1:28:23 AM EDT
[#18]
My father related an interesting story of three American Merchant Seaman who were arrested by the KGB after delivering a merchant tanker to the Soviet Union as the crew during WWII. Essentially they sailed it to Murmansk, showed the Soviet crew the ship and were promptly arrested by the KGB as spies. I think one disappeared, while two escaped with one successfully making it to Norway to return to the UK via a minesweeper.

Certainly, there were at least bodies of Cold War shootdowns recovered by the Soviet Union that were never repatriated (though in one famous case the USNA ring of an aviator was returned to the family.)

None of the bodies from the KAL007 shootdown were ever recovered. There has been lots of literature on the thousands of South Koreans, and significant number of other nationals held by the North Koreans.

I'd guess that its a near certainty that some number of Americans were retained after the war, either dead or alive by the North Vietnamese.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 1:39:27 AM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:
Delta was training for a rescue OP, not sure what the year was I would have to research. Apparently there was credible intel, then the OP was scrapped.
View Quote







...........
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 5:14:47 AM EDT
[#20]
Yes
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 5:26:35 AM EDT
[#21]
Yep.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 5:58:08 AM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
In Vietnam, no.  In the USSR, likely.
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This or China.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 6:11:11 AM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:

John McCain stopped an investigation into that very subject.  I wonder why?
The POW Coverup
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Great article


If McCain had such a massive temper about his demons or guilt about this topic, is it possible his father pulled strings and “traded” a bunch of POWs to get his son back? Surely something like that being made public would’ve cost him his political career and any semblance of respect in the public eye, not to mention amplifying his own guilty conscience over it

Link Posted: 6/4/2023 6:15:16 AM EDT
[#24]
In Cambodia and Laos for sure
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 6:19:01 AM EDT
[#25]
Not my topic, but I've never really seen anything solid beyond a disdain of the Vietnamese government to back it up.  

Personally, I have my doubts - why would they bother?  As others say, dud Russia take and keep some?  Maybe - but I've yet to see anything to really back that up.  Now that the wall fell, and that Vietnam is a good Capitalist country that loves America, I still haven't seen anything uncovered to really back it up.

Basically... no.

But then, for the longest time I was told John McCain was a war hero too.  Holy shit, on that guy.  Just... wow.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 6:38:35 AM EDT
[#26]
Eric Haney, a retired Delta guy, who was a CSM (I don’t think while in Delta) openly talks about a mission delta put together to get Vietnam POWs back but was thwarted by some guy on TV saying he’s organizing a force to rescue them. He alludes to the guy being a patsy to ruin the mission. He says after the Vietnam government saw that guy all over the news they more-than-likely executed the remaining POWs. The mission was cancelled.

MissingImage
Failed To Load Product Data




ETA: based on a review the section about Vietnam POWs was removed from the book after the 1st edition. I have the first edition. I’ll have to find it.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 7:02:38 AM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 7:29:21 AM EDT
[#28]
Yes

Shitbag countries always keep POWs
Russia / USSR is a perfect example
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 7:36:25 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




This exactly. The commies in Vietnam and America are not very honest with the American public
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Soooooo....There is a book.  Its called Inside Delta Force by Eric Haney.  Dude was a plank member of Americas first and premier tier one special operations anti terror unit.

He states that twice they had actionable intelligence on the location of American hostages' being held in Vietnam.  Twice he (and the rest of Chuck Beckwith's pipe hitters) tooled up and geared up to raid bases in Vietnam.
He stated that it was the standard operating procedure of the people of Vietnam to hold hostages after a war until money was paid as reparation's.  They had done the same thing to the French after they left.

Twice their operation was blown.  He believed by the CIA.  He believed that administration didn't want to deal with the situation.  My guess is that since the Iranian Hostage Situation and its failed rescue pretty much killed the last presidential administration...why take the chance.

While I have no proof of his claim, it does seem to fit events of its time.

Link Posted: 6/4/2023 9:10:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Eric Haney, a retired Delta guy, who was a CSM (I don’t think while in Delta) openly talks about a mission delta put together to get Vietnam POWs back but was thwarted by some guy on TV saying he’s organizing a force to rescue them. He alludes to the guy being a patsy to ruin the mission. He says after the Vietnam government saw that guy all over the news they more-than-likely executed the remaining POWs. The mission was cancelled.

www.amazon.com/dp/0385339364


ETA: based on a review the section about Vietnam POWs was removed from the book after the 1st edition. I have the first edition. I’ll have to find it.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Eric Haney, a retired Delta guy, who was a CSM (I don’t think while in Delta) openly talks about a mission delta put together to get Vietnam POWs back but was thwarted by some guy on TV saying he’s organizing a force to rescue them. He alludes to the guy being a patsy to ruin the mission. He says after the Vietnam government saw that guy all over the news they more-than-likely executed the remaining POWs. The mission was cancelled.

www.amazon.com/dp/0385339364


ETA: based on a review the section about Vietnam POWs was removed from the book after the 1st edition. I have the first edition. I’ll have to find it.



That was Bo Gritz….sort of a loud mouth loon, at least from what I saw and self serving.  When I went through SFQC his son, "Baby Gritz" was a TAC….on a piss test hold I think. Not a bad guy though. In fact, now that I think about it, that phrase in my sig line…" a NCO moves to the sound of the guns" came from him.


The point though is that there were DEFINITELY POWs in Vietnam in the late 70's early 80s.  


Attempts to locate prisoners of war[edit]
During the early 1980s, as part of the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue, Gritz undertook a series of private trips into Southeast Asia, in attempts to locate U.S. prisoners of war who some Americans believed had been detained since the Vietnam War, by the communist governments of Laos and Vietnam, e.g., at Nhommarath. In his forays into Laos, Gritz worked with his fellow special forces veterans and with Laotian anti-communist guerrillas, one of whom was killed by the men of the exiled Laotian warlord Phoumi Nosavan who also abducted the American search party member Dominic "Zap" Zappone for ransom.[12][13] Initially, some abortive technical assistance was provided by elements of the Defense Intelligence Agency in 1981. The later adventures have been financed by high profile donors like Clint Eastwood and Ross Perot.[14][15] Operating out of Thailand, from where he was repeatedly deported by the authorities, Gritz used aliases such as "Richard Patrick Clark".[16] He also testified as a witness before the House committee headed by Stephen Solarz in 1983, but was unable to provide any evidence of the existence of the POWs.[17]

These activities were heavily publicized, controversial and widely decried as haphazard. For instance, as some commentators stated, few supposedly secret missions involved bringing to the border towns women openly selling commemorative POW-rescue T-shirts.[18][19] In the book Inside Delta Force, CSM Eric L. Haney, a former Delta Force operator, claims that the unit was twice told to prepare for a mission involving the rescue of American POWs from Vietnam. However, both times the missions were scrubbed, according to Haney, when Gritz suddenly appeared in the spotlight, drawing too much attention to the issue and making the missions too difficult to accomplish.[20] In 1983, Gritz (who had surrendered himself by walking into a police station) and four of his associates were tried and convicted in Thailand of illegally importing radio equipment during their "Operation Lazarus Omega"; one of them, a former Navy SEAL David Scott Weekly also known as "Doctor Death", was also later convicted in America of smuggling explosives.[21][22] Thailand authorities expressed concern that the Vietnamese forces in Laos would retaliate against them for cross-border armed intrusions and threatened to jail Gritz for 20 years.[23] Vietnamese Foreign Minister Nguyen Co Thach called Gritz's actions "a flagrant violation of the sovereignty of Laos that everyone should denounce."[
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 9:16:53 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History



I got to say…..when I see that POW flag on a GOV building it makes me sick to my stomach with anger. The USG knowingly left men there to be tortured and I'm sure eventually killed.  Reestablishing relations with Vietnam, trying to pull them into our sphere of influence, was more important than going in and getting those men….so we left them there to die.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 9:17:39 AM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:

Personally, I have my doubts - why would they bother?  \
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The going theory, if you believe the Vietnamese held Americans back, were as a bargaining chip for war reparations.
Nixon had his problems and the US had lost all interest in anything to do with Vietnam.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 9:38:26 AM EDT
[#33]
Absolutely no question about it.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 9:42:39 AM EDT
[#34]
Yes.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 9:52:02 AM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



That was Bo Gritz….sort of a loud mouth loon, at least from what I saw and self serving.  When I went through SFQC his son, "Baby Gritz" was a TAC….on a piss test hold I think. Not a bad guy though. In fact, now that I think about it, that phrase in my sig line…" a NCO moves to the sound of the guns" came from him.


The point though is that there were DEFINITELY POWs in Vietnam in the late 70's early 80s.  


View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Eric Haney, a retired Delta guy, who was a CSM (I don’t think while in Delta) openly talks about a mission delta put together to get Vietnam POWs back but was thwarted by some guy on TV saying he’s organizing a force to rescue them. He alludes to the guy being a patsy to ruin the mission. He says after the Vietnam government saw that guy all over the news they more-than-likely executed the remaining POWs. The mission was cancelled.

www.amazon.com/dp/0385339364


ETA: based on a review the section about Vietnam POWs was removed from the book after the 1st edition. I have the first edition. I’ll have to find it.



That was Bo Gritz….sort of a loud mouth loon, at least from what I saw and self serving.  When I went through SFQC his son, "Baby Gritz" was a TAC….on a piss test hold I think. Not a bad guy though. In fact, now that I think about it, that phrase in my sig line…" a NCO moves to the sound of the guns" came from him.


The point though is that there were DEFINITELY POWs in Vietnam in the late 70's early 80s.  


Attempts to locate prisoners of war[edit]
During the early 1980s, as part of the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue, Gritz undertook a series of private trips into Southeast Asia, in attempts to locate U.S. prisoners of war who some Americans believed had been detained since the Vietnam War, by the communist governments of Laos and Vietnam, e.g., at Nhommarath. In his forays into Laos, Gritz worked with his fellow special forces veterans and with Laotian anti-communist guerrillas, one of whom was killed by the men of the exiled Laotian warlord Phoumi Nosavan who also abducted the American search party member Dominic "Zap" Zappone for ransom.[12][13] Initially, some abortive technical assistance was provided by elements of the Defense Intelligence Agency in 1981. The later adventures have been financed by high profile donors like Clint Eastwood and Ross Perot.[14][15] Operating out of Thailand, from where he was repeatedly deported by the authorities, Gritz used aliases such as "Richard Patrick Clark".[16] He also testified as a witness before the House committee headed by Stephen Solarz in 1983, but was unable to provide any evidence of the existence of the POWs.[17]

These activities were heavily publicized, controversial and widely decried as haphazard. For instance, as some commentators stated, few supposedly secret missions involved bringing to the border towns women openly selling commemorative POW-rescue T-shirts.[18][19] In the book Inside Delta Force, CSM Eric L. Haney, a former Delta Force operator, claims that the unit was twice told to prepare for a mission involving the rescue of American POWs from Vietnam. However, both times the missions were scrubbed, according to Haney, when Gritz suddenly appeared in the spotlight, drawing too much attention to the issue and making the missions too difficult to accomplish.[20] In 1983, Gritz (who had surrendered himself by walking into a police station) and four of his associates were tried and convicted in Thailand of illegally importing radio equipment during their "Operation Lazarus Omega"; one of them, a former Navy SEAL David Scott Weekly also known as "Doctor Death", was also later convicted in America of smuggling explosives.[21][22] Thailand authorities expressed concern that the Vietnamese forces in Laos would retaliate against them for cross-border armed intrusions and threatened to jail Gritz for 20 years.[23] Vietnamese Foreign Minister Nguyen Co Thach called Gritz's actions "a flagrant violation of the sovereignty of Laos that everyone should denounce."[


That’s it! Thanks, and what great quote.
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 10:03:57 AM EDT
[#36]
I think the opposite question is interesting also.  Does the US have POW’s from our various military actions and if so, who is the longest held captive?
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 10:24:07 AM EDT
[#37]
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 10:27:51 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I think the opposite question is interesting also.  Does the US have POW’s from our various military actions and if so, who is the longest held captive?
View Quote


I wouldn't really call these people POWs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

Same with now dead Noriega.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Noriega
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 10:29:40 AM EDT
[#39]
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 10:59:32 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I think the opposite question is interesting also.  Does the US have POW’s from our various military actions and if so, who is the longest held captive?
View Quote



Depends how you view Gitmo and black sites…...
Link Posted: 6/4/2023 12:02:19 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History



Flies at my house every day.
Link Posted: 7/3/2023 9:52:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



This I believe. I also believe it's plausible that the Soviets and/or Chinese took those with intelligence value, and likely executed them when they'd been wrung out.

I don't believe we knowingly left people under duress, especially if we had actionable intel on their whereabouts. I can say that with a high degree of confidence, because I participated in one attempt. One of our unified combatant commands spent millions - probably tens of millions - committing very serious people and firepower in an attempt to take Americans back from a hostile force in a sovereign country.

This was no half-hearted bullshit...and I'd bet my bottom dollar there are a half dozen guys on here, green and blue, who know exactly what I'm talking about. I hope the story is declassified some day, I think it would do a lot to restore some confidence in the covenant that our country has with its military.

View Quote


SW or SE Asia?  If you can even say that at all.  

To the OP, when people like @pdm and @18b30 are telling you something on this kind of topic, that's what we call a clue.

Another thing (and aside, did the Gentle Propositions guy, @RTUtah , change his handle?  He went surfing over in Indonesia and then nothing here.  Hope he had fun.), were MACV-SOG personnel in this explicitly counted as MIA?  I'd thought they generally got wiped out if seriously pinned down and fought, by Pathet Lao, NVA, KR...but I didn't think they had official status to where, if they were missing, they'd end up on the official MIA count.  

I think most were quietly killed.  Why keep a potential embarrassment around?  But see, Osama bin Laden....
Link Posted: 7/3/2023 9:54:16 PM EDT
[#43]
John McCain knows.

May that piece of dog shit burn in eternal flames.
Link Posted: 7/3/2023 9:55:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I have been to Vietnam twice. I do not believe they had secret prisons loaded with POWs after we left.

The Vietnamese have worked with the US to account for all the missing. Read the posts of the people who worked on those recovery efforts.
View Quote


Of course not, they were in Laos, Cambodia and shipped to either Russia or China.
Link Posted: 7/4/2023 10:35:17 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

SW or SE Asia?  If you can even say that at all.  

To the OP, when people like @pdm and @18b30 are telling you something on this kind of topic, that's what we call a clue.

Another thing (and aside, did the Gentle Propositions guy, @RTUtah , change his handle?  He went surfing over in Indonesia and then nothing here.  Hope he had fun.), were MACV-SOG personnel in this explicitly counted as MIA?  I'd thought they generally got wiped out if seriously pinned down and fought, by Pathet Lao, NVA, KR...but I didn't think they had official status to where, if they were missing, they'd end up on the official MIA count.  

I think most were quietly killed.  Why keep a potential embarrassment around?  But see, Osama bin Laden....
View Quote

@Wineraner, of course I'm still around bro! You missed my post on this very page but sadly I just don't have a whole lot to add other than my brief opinion. I'm certainly no expert on the subject. The American POW count includes all personnel unaccounted for throughout the duration of the war; that means guys assigned to SOG who were lost across the fence as well. Tilt Meyer addresses this in every SOGcast episode he does. IIRC, it's somewhere around 500 US who were assigned to SOG who still remain unaccounted; this figure also includes support guys such as slick and gunship drivers and all other support.

In the earlier days of the war when SOG teams were only just finding their footing and understanding the mission, the NVA made it very clear they weren't too interested in babysitting American POWs from the unit if they were able to roll them up. Most of the time these teams would fight to the death to prevent capture and in the event the NVA were actually able to get a guy alive, it was often such a hotblooded moment, they likely executed these guys on the spot after a preliminary interrogation routine. These teams packed such a punch and had so much airpower at their fingertips, the NVA often had to expend A LOT of lives to roll them up. I don't believe many SOG dudes actually survived the firefights, capture, interrogation, and made it back to a rear area as a POW.
Link Posted: 7/4/2023 11:48:28 AM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:


You guys really believe this?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
No, not in Vietnam.  By 1975 they had all been shipped to Russia or China.


You guys really believe this?
For sure. The Vietnam government wouldn't have had any use beyond extortion of US for money.
Once that option was gone, the next best thing was to get what money they could for the prisoners from the communists.
Link Posted: 7/4/2023 11:57:52 AM EDT
[#47]
Is anyone in here currently reading or listening to "Only the Dead" by Jack Carr?
It's the most recent book in 'The Terminal List' series.
It has a plot that revolves heavily around OP's very question.



Link Posted: 7/4/2023 1:48:49 PM EDT
[#48]
It was part of a cheesy Unsolved Mysteries episode, but the family of Robert C. “Curt” Borton believes he is still alive, that he is not an actual POW/MIA/KIA from Vietnam.

Fast forward to the 18 minute 17 second mark:

Unsolved Mysteries with Robert Stack - Season 7, Episode 8 - Full Episode
Link Posted: 7/4/2023 5:38:57 PM EDT
[#49]
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