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Posted: 6/2/2001 4:26:15 PM EST
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/20010602/t000046070.html Saturday, June 2, 2001 Different Rifle Tested in Davidian Siege Probe Evidence: Results of the simulation on an M-16 were used to help clear the FBI in inquiry. From Associated Press WASHINGTON--The simulation that concluded government agents did not fire their guns during the Branch Davidian siege did not test the type of assault rifle the FBI had at the scene, according to an official who helped run the test. The simulation last year used a standard M-16 military rifle with a 20-inch barrel, said Robert Stewart, a U.S. Postal Service inspector who helped coordinate the simulation. The FBI does not use standard M-16s, and members of its Hostage Rescue Team who were at the compound near Waco, Texas, in 1993 carried a version with a 14-inch barrel, an FBI spokeswoman said. Firearms experts say the longer gun has less muzzle flash. Lawyers for the Branch Davidians who survived the fiery end of the siege in April 1993 are now questioning whether the test really proved that FBI agents never fired their guns at the Davidian compound. "I think it completely undermines the test results," attorney Michael Caddell said. Caddell said he plans to use the test as evidence if the lawsuit his clients filed against the government is restored on appeal. Former Sen. John C. Danforth, who led the independent siege review, said he did not know specifics about the test gun. He said it would not change his conclusion that the FBI did not fire upon the Davidians at the end of the siege. Eighty Davidians died. "I don't know what weapons were tested myself," Danforth said Friday. "But all of this was part of the agreement, and all of it was pronounced fair at the end of the test." Danforth said Friday that he thought he received "something less than total cooperation" from the FBI, although he said that did not change his findings absolving the FBI of blame for the Davidians' deaths. "Do I think there's anything out there hidden in some drawer that would affect the outcome? I don't think there's any chance of that," Danforth said. John Collingwood, the FBI spokesman, cited Danforth's final report on the siege, which said problems with the FBI's performance in turning over documentary evidence were eventually settled to Danforth's satisfaction. Stewart said the military's M-16 rifle that testers used had a 20-inch barrel, not the 14-inch carbine that the FBI had at Waco. He provided documentary filmmaker Mike McNulty with a photograph of the gun tested. "We tested a standard military issue M-16, not a carbine," Stewart said. The Davidian lawyers sought the simulation on March 19, 2000, because they believed flashes of light that appeared on infrared video from the final moments of the siege could be muzzle flashes from FBI guns. Experts from British contractor Vector Data Systems concluded the flashes on the April 19, 1993, tape were glints from the sun, not gunfire. Danforth and U.S. District Judge Walter S. Smith Jr. relied in part on that information to conclude that FBI agents did not fire their guns at the Davidian compound. Firearms experts say the difference in barrel lengths could have affected the test. Copyright 2001 Los Angeles Times
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 5:17:30 PM EST
FWIW I heard that they also used LC ammo during the test and not the FC ammo that the FBI/HRT teams use.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 6:12:56 PM EST
Am I wrong, or would it not matter what type of barrel you were using if the firing is caught by an infrared camera? Those camera's pick up on heat signature, in this case generated by the expulsion of hot gasses propelling the bullet, which is present regardless of what the flash may look like in the visible spectrum. Flash hiders will do nothing to reduce the heat in front of the muzzle when a gun fires, nor can anything be done to hide the change in barrel temperature that would shortly follow even one or two shots. You'd think firing a gun would be immediatly apparent, at least on the infrared film.
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 6:23:19 PM EST
My carbines with an A2 flashider put off a bigger flash than my 20" post ban plain barreled MT6700. Also, I'm quite sure the FBI provided some flash retardant powder in the ammo supplied for the test. There is no limit to the power and influence the federal govt has when it's defending itself. They do after all, have plenty of our money to work with and the latest technology available. I'm not in the least bit surprised that they supplied something other than that which they actually used. After all, those evil black guns all look the same don't they?
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 6:25:35 PM EST
That is what I have wondered about. Why weren't the gun barrels visible after firing a few rounds? I don't remember seeing them in the tape?
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 7:27:39 PM EST
When there are two parties that are attempting to describe the same event (such as Waco) and their respective stories are diametrically opposed, then I always figure that whichever side can be shown to have lied FIRST is the [b]lying[/b] side. The FBI, the ATF, and the 'Gubmint' have all been shown to have been notoriously bad Liars throughout the Waco affair. The six inch differential in the barrel lengths would be dismissed as inconsequential by the [i]hoi polloi[/i], but WE AR-15 afficionados damn well know the diff. Hell, a little two inch muzzle brake, muzzle device, or what-have-you, makes a ton of diff in the muzzle flash. So if'n the FBI 'cheats' in the test, it's only because they knew that an honest test might show something that couldn't be routinely and credibly denied. And using a different barrel when there were exact barrels available, is, simply put, cheating! Eric The Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 11:10:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2001 11:09:07 PM EST by TacCar]
Are you sure you think it was the FBI and not Delta Force. Ah, nevermind, would just run on and on...
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 8:54:06 AM EST
BTT
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 9:16:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By TacCar: Are you sure you think it was the FBI and not Delta Force. Ah, nevermind, would just run on and on...
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Take the tinfoil hat off please.
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 9:22:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2001 9:20:45 AM EST by Ticonderoga]
Originally Posted By SARguy:
Originally Posted By TacCar: Are you sure you think it was the FBI and not Delta Force. Ah, nevermind, would just run on and on...
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Take the tinfoil hat off please.
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Tin foil hats aside. The Texas Rangers said the Feds lied, the Ft. Worth Coroner's office said the Feds lied, the Sheriff for the county Waco is in says the feds lied, and the only guy on record who had a copy of the original FLIR tape dies mysteriously, and the tape cannot be found. I'm 50% 50% on this one. Sure looks dirty, the Feds have not come clean. Missing tapes, missing 300 lb. doors. How do you misplace 2 300 lb doors? Tin foil hat? A GODDAMN TEXAS RANGER reports seeing LEO bodies coming out on the final day in body bags. Gee, the Fed didn't report any Fed forces killed on that day. Those damn rangers, if he had his foil beenie on straight, he wouldn't have mistaken that van with the body bag in it for what it really was, a heft bag with candy bar rappers and beer cans... [puke]
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 9:41:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ticonderoga:
Originally Posted By SARguy:
Originally Posted By TacCar: Are you sure you think it was the FBI and not Delta Force. Ah, nevermind, would just run on and on...
View Quote
Take the tinfoil hat off please.
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Tin foil hats aside. The Texas Rangers said the Feds lied, the Ft. Worth Coroner's office said the Feds lied, the Sheriff for the county Waco is in says the feds lied, and the only guy on record who had a copy of the original FLIR tape dies mysteriously, and the tape cannot be found. I'm 50% 50% on this one. Sure looks dirty, the Feds have not come clean. Missing tapes, missing 300 lb. doors. How do you misplace 2 300 lb doors? Tin foil hat? A GODDAMN TEXAS RANGER reports seeing LEO bodies coming out on the final day in body bags. Gee, the Fed didn't report any Fed forces killed on that day. Those damn rangers, if he had his foil beenie on straight, he wouldn't have mistaken that van with the body bag in it for what it really was, a heft bag with candy bar rappers and beer cans... [puke]
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First, settle down. React rationally, not emotionally here. I never said colossal mistakes weren't made and I'm not taking sides. However, this fantasy that Delta Operators were involved in some botched raid is just ignorant. The THREE personnel that were there may have been assigned to the unit, but they were NOT operators, they were support personnel. Not everyone in the D is a shooter. That unit contains the most patriotic *thinking* individuals in the military. SOCOM didn't even want to offer advice to the FBI. I don't believe any Federal Officers were killed either. If they were, their names aren't on the memorial. Do you think that could actually happen? It can't. HRT has some good people in it and if something happened, you can bet that their families would know and tell. High-speed units like that are small and close-knit and there aren't lots of people to go around so when something does happen, everone knows. So no, I think the possibility of a coverup of dead officers is zero. A lot of these so called "truth" tapes are put out by those with an agenda. I've seen some of that garbage, showing M1 tanks at Waco. Fact is, there were no M1's. There were M2 Bradleys (minus chainguns) and M728 Civil Engineering Vehicles. People who make false claims ruin their credibility. On *ALL* sides. -SARguy
Link Posted: 6/3/2001 12:53:17 PM EST
>>Am I wrong, or would it not matter what type of barrel you were using if the firing is caught by an infrared camera? Those camera's pick up on heat signature, in this case generated by the expulsion of hot gasses propelling the bullet, which is present regardless of what the flash may look like in the visible spectrum. Flash hiders will do nothing to reduce the heat in front of the muzzle when a gun fires, nor can anything be done to hide the change in barrel temperature that would shortly follow even one or two shots. You'd think firing a gun would be immediatly apparent, at least on the infrared film.<< HOORAY!!! Somebody hits the nail on the head. That is something many of the IR experts have been saying for the longest. Muzzle flash is not an issue, heat is. There is no evidence to support a change in the heat signature. If the little twinkly flashes were gunfire, there would be a heat differential present AFTER the shot as well as during. Talk to any chopper pilot that deals a lot with IR and he will tell you the same. That is not to say that Waco wasn't a major screwup, it is just that you can't use that particular "evidence" for much.
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