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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/12/2005 3:40:46 PM EDT
So sayeth this guy

I would love to know.

Ben
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:45:16 PM EDT
Never heard of it. Why would the Red Cross give a shit about a small caliber rifle round? 50BMG, perhaps, but not small caliber.

My .o2
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 4:49:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2005 4:50:42 PM EDT by BulletBait]
IIRC the Ruskies were using a round with a plastic jacket so x-raying the wound wouldn't help in finding out what to fix. IIRC this was in SOF
ETA: It's been 20 years guys.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 5:04:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BulletBait:
IIRC the Ruskies were using a round with a plastic jacket so x-raying the wound wouldn't help in finding out what to fix. IIRC this was in SOF
ETA: It's been 20 years guys.




I guess it was working too well !

Ben
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 10:34:24 PM EDT
Karnak the Magnificent says "What might you hear at the local gun store?"
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:11:09 AM EDT
The Red Cross did infact make an objection to the 5.45x39 Soviet service round. The bullet has a 1-2mm air pocket in the nose of the bullet which causes it to deform on inpact causing the bullet to tumble immediatly upon entry. The bullet is very long and slender which aides in its "fish hook" type wounds. The round rapidly changes direction and tumbles through the target while shedding shrapnel from the jacket. Its wounding mechanism relies much less on velocity than conventional 5.56 rounds. AK's have a very rapid barrel twist which spins the round very rapidly resulting in increased accuracy and complementing the already flatter trajectory of the round. Testing with slower barrel twists cause an verly slight vertical "wobble" which makes wounding even more profound, but sacraficing some accuracy...this is academic though, as accuracy and AK are

unrelated terms. The Russian 7N7 round also has exceptional penetration qualities. It uses a hardened core with a "knocker" in the base of the bullet which impacts the base of the hardnend core upon impact increasing penetration which makes it superior to the M855 against something like a light vehicle. This bullet is the most lethal assualt weapon round in service today, I have found it to be more lethal than both my favorite 75 grn TAP and some MK262 I got for testing....both of which are illegal for ground warefare. Its wounding mechanisim is much less velocity dependent, which is essential for poorly manufactured and inconsistant Soviet ammo. Afghan rebels called it the "posion bullet" as countless numbers were killed from wounds to extremities. This round produces a mimimal ammound of recoil, less than 5.56 and using Wolf and the compensator flash/muzzle climb is non-existant making extremely rapid accurately aimed fire

very possible. The Red Cross appealed to the UN, and obviously NATO objected to more Russian brutality, but the round is perfectly legal for use as it doesn't violate the laws of war, it merely circumvents them, as do our fragmenting 5.56 rounds....they just did a WAY better job. Our weapon, their round improved by newer technology would likely be the ultimate assault weapon.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 1:46:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 8:56:12 AM EDT
Whoa, this is better than uhh... It's sweet!

Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:29:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 9:32:09 AM EDT by 223-4me]

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
The Red Cross did infact make an objection to the 5.45x39 Soviet service round. The bullet has a 1-2mm air pocket in the nose of the bullet which causes it to deform on inpact causing the bullet to tumble immediatly upon entry. The bullet is very long and slender which aides in its "fish hook" type wounds. The round rapidly changes direction and tumbles through the target while shedding shrapnel from the jacket. Its wounding mechanism relies much less on velocity than conventional 5.56 rounds. AK's have a very rapid barrel twist which spins the round very rapidly resulting in increased accuracy and complementing the already flatter trajectory of the round. Testing with slower barrel twists cause an verly slight vertical "wobble" which makes wounding even more profound, but sacraficing some accuracy...this is academic though, as accuracy and AK are

unrelated terms. The Russian 7N7 round also has exceptional penetration qualities. It uses a hardened core with a "knocker" in the base of the bullet which impacts the base of the hardnend core upon impact increasing penetration which makes it superior to the M855 against something like a light vehicle. This bullet is the most lethal assualt weapon round in service today, I have found it to be more lethal than both my favorite 75 grn TAP and some MK262 I got for testing....both of which are illegal for ground warefare. Its wounding mechanisim is much less velocity dependent, which is essential for poorly manufactured and inconsistant Soviet ammo. Afghan rebels called it the "posion bullet" as countless numbers were killed from wounds to extremities. This round produces a mimimal ammound of recoil, less than 5.56 and using Wolf and the compensator flash/muzzle climb is non-existant making extremely rapid accurately aimed fire

very possible. The Red Cross appealed to the UN, and obviously NATO objected to more Russian brutality, but the round is perfectly legal for use as it doesn't violate the laws of war, it merely circumvents them, as do our fragmenting 5.56 rounds....they just did a WAY better job. Our weapon, their round improved by newer technology would likely be the ultimate assault weapon.




If you dont mind could you post your gel tests/live tissue tests to back this up along with any other relevant data, I'm sure the military would like top know that the MK262 is not legal for ground warfare, since they have been testing and using this in the middle east.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:37:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 223-4me:

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
The Red Cross did infact make an objection to the 5.45x39 Soviet service round. The bullet has a 1-2mm air pocket in the nose of the bullet which causes it to deform on inpact causing the bullet to tumble immediatly upon entry. The bullet is very long and slender which aides in its "fish hook" type wounds. The round rapidly changes direction and tumbles through the target while shedding shrapnel from the jacket. Its wounding mechanism relies much less on velocity than conventional 5.56 rounds. AK's have a very rapid barrel twist which spins the round very rapidly resulting in increased accuracy and complementing the already flatter trajectory of the round. Testing with slower barrel twists cause an verly slight vertical "wobble" which makes wounding even more profound, but sacraficing some accuracy...this is academic though, as accuracy and AK are

unrelated terms. The Russian 7N7 round also has exceptional penetration qualities. It uses a hardened core with a "knocker" in the base of the bullet which impacts the base of the hardnend core upon impact increasing penetration which makes it superior to the M855 against something like a light vehicle. This bullet is the most lethal assualt weapon round in service today, I have found it to be more lethal than both my favorite 75 grn TAP and some MK262 I got for testing....both of which are illegal for ground warefare. Its wounding mechanisim is much less velocity dependent, which is essential for poorly manufactured and inconsistant Soviet ammo. Afghan rebels called it the "posion bullet" as countless numbers were killed from wounds to extremities. This round produces a mimimal ammound of recoil, less than 5.56 and using Wolf and the compensator flash/muzzle climb is non-existant making extremely rapid accurately aimed fire

very possible. The Red Cross appealed to the UN, and obviously NATO objected to more Russian brutality, but the round is perfectly legal for use as it doesn't violate the laws of war, it merely circumvents them, as do our fragmenting 5.56 rounds....they just did a WAY better job. Our weapon, their round improved by newer technology would likely be the ultimate assault weapon.




If you dont mind could you post your gel tests/live tissue tests to back this up along with any other relevant data, I'm sure the military would like top know that the MK262 is not legal for ground warfare, since they have been testing and using this in the middle east.



Hmm I missed the part about the MK 262 being illegal for land warfare...I doubt the USMC and SOCOM would be using it if it wasn't, those DOD legal eagles...


Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:55:32 AM EDT
I think this should be in the Ammo forum, but I'd still like to see the fights this causes.

I was under the impression that, although the round performs much better, terminally, than the 7.62x39, that it still doesn't outperform the M193 and M855 rounds. I don't remember where I read this, and don't have a source, so I may as well be saying that the purple unicorns using deathrays were the most common cause of death in the years following Alexander's conquest of the middle east.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:57:03 AM EDT
Sounds like an anti-Soviet position that the Red Cross took, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 10:11:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By voilsb:
I think this should be in the Ammo forum, but I'd still like to see the fights this causes.

I was under the impression that, although the round performs much better, terminally, than the 7.62x39, that it still doesn't outperform the M193 and M855 rounds. I don't remember where I read this, and don't have a source, so I may as well be saying that the purple unicorns using deathrays were the most common cause of death in the years following Alexander's conquest of the middle east.



I believe the 5.56 M193, M855, Mk262 rounds out perform the 5.45 because of fragmentation, the 5.45 only tumbled and didnt frag, but with the 5.56 rounds they fragmented causing the more dramatic wounds, but out of a short barrel(ie 11.5, 10" ect...) the 5.45 has the edge in range as it doesnt rely on fragmentation
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 4:41:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 4:41:56 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 6:24:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 223-4me:

Originally Posted By voilsb:
I think this should be in the Ammo forum, but I'd still like to see the fights this causes.

I was under the impression that, although the round performs much better, terminally, than the 7.62x39, that it still doesn't outperform the M193 and M855 rounds. I don't remember where I read this, and don't have a source, so I may as well be saying that the purple unicorns using deathrays were the most common cause of death in the years following Alexander's conquest of the middle east.



I believe the 5.56 M193, M855, Mk262 rounds out perform the 5.45 because of fragmentation, the 5.45 only tumbled and didnt frag, but with the 5.56 rounds they fragmented causing the more dramatic wounds, but out of a short barrel(ie 11.5, 10" ect...) the 5.45 has the edge in range as it doesnt rely on fragmentation



When the 5.56mm actually fragments it's better than the 5.45..WHEN it does !

ben
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:16:20 PM EDT
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