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Posted: 1/7/2003 9:07:37 AM EST
[url]http://www.freep.com/news/locway/knife7_20030107.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 9:21:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 9:25:23 AM EST
I think guilty of DUI is a real possibilty. If you use plain clothes officers: they should have their badge and ID readily available. They should show it to any person that asks. As far as the whole struggle, whatever. But, why would you cut another person's property? I can see it if it is say a seatbelt that needs to be cut. A shirt to put AED pads on. But a coat cuff to apply handcuffs, when 3 officers are present? NO.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 9:50:53 AM EST
Hey, the cops went home safe, right?
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 9:57:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 2:01:55 PM EST by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn: Guilty of doing absolutely nothing. Boy, she'll be quite rich before too long.
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Possibly Guilty of DUI, Resist/Obstruct/Delay, and attempt Assault With Deadly Weapon (the car). But the cop is still a dumb-ass product of Michigan's very flawed Law Enforcement officer training and selection process. Fortunately she only lost a finger tip, according to the article, as opposed to an entire finger as the inflamitory title of this thread suggests.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 9:57:44 AM EST
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. [b]Cut his finger off![/b]
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 9:58:43 AM EST
They didn't have probable cause.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 10:01:01 AM EST
Please.....this poor officer has suffered enough.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 10:09:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 10:14:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 10:23:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By Ponyboy: An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. [b]Cut his finger off![/b]
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Make sure it's his [red]trigger finger[/red]. [}:D]
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 10:26:21 AM EST
yes, I agree...anyone who could conceivably be found guilty of anything should have their digits forcibly removed by a cop. This is true whether or not there is any probable cause, the charge is a felony or misdemeanor or the officer feels its necessary to elicit the proper degree of respect for his or her authority. After all, it's perfectly reasonable to start cutting up a suspect if they squirm, illegal arrest or not...especially such violent felons such as this one who was DUI, Aggravated assault w/ a vehicle, resisting arrest, obstructing justice, abetting terrorism and proabbly parking illegally. As to actual guilt here, I would only point out that guilt has nothing to do with arrest. If you are guilty as sin and there is no "reasonable suspicion" or "probable cause" depending on the nature of the search or seizure, then it is illegal. Conversely, guilt is not required to effect an arrest, search or seizure. I seem to vaguely recall something about innocent until proven guilty in a court of law or something about a presumption of innocence? maybe not
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 10:40:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan: But the cop is still a dumb-ass product of Michigan's very flawed Law Enforcement officer training and selection process.
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I would not say a Product of Michigans Law Enfourcement officer training. Detroit Trains all of thier own cops. You dont even need a college degree to go to the academy. Starting pay is only around $12 bucks an hour, So what kind of people are you going to attract then.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 11:47:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 12:58:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 12:59:16 PM EST by Bign]
HOw can ya'll ASSume this lady was drunk? Even if she was, was she driving? And still if she was DUI, could they not show a badge, or call for other assistance if necessary. I try and support cops and such, but reading anoutt his shit is getting realy old! Did ya'll read the one about the cops shooting the family's dawg by the interstate the other day??? WTF!!! This paper's pleeze shit is getting scarier everyday!
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 1:17:29 PM EST
Whats the big deal, they can sew it back on right. No harm no foul.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 1:20:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bign: HOw can ya'll ASSume this lady was drunk? Even if she was, was she driving? And still if she was DUI, could they not show a badge, or call for other assistance if necessary. I try and support cops and such, but reading anoutt his shit is getting realy old! Did ya'll read the one about the cops shooting the family's dawg by the interstate the other day??? WTF!!! This paper's pleeze shit is getting scarier everyday!
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GB have you given any thought about bringing back the spell checker for the regular members?
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 1:33:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 1:38:44 PM EST by bvmjethead]
Cop's are just making it harder and harder for themselves. This guy sounds like some of the ego trip power hungry cops we have around here. I'm not saying all cop's are bad. But it's not a surprise that most black people are afraid to stop for cop's anymore. You would be too, get your finger cut off, because you want to see some ID before you obey a person in street clothes. $1000 says she is black and the officer is white. Any takers? She's gonna be rich.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 1:35:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By cyanide: Whats the big deal, they can sew it back on right. No harm no foul.
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Nope--read the article--the finger could not be reattached.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 1:51:03 PM EST
That lady had to be cuffed, for her own safety! There was no time to ask for assistance from the other officers! The situation was dire and required quick thinking, this dangerous woman was capable of anything. I mean, she goes from just standing a parking lot minding her own business to attempting to murder a police officer. What the fuck is wrong with these citizens? They shouldn't ask questions. She was standing around dangerously and we should applaud these fine officers for their proactive policing. I mean, we can't have loitering going on in our communities, can we?
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 1:51:31 PM EST
All cops lie, all cops are human, none come out to tell the truth when they know it.(thats lying) Unless someone they missed got away with a photo and publishes the photo. Birds of a feather, flock together, your either cop or not. Cops get to go to the station to make up their lie while you in jail, and say " I identified my self as a police officer I had police written on my back and he tried to run me over" Who you going to beleive? GG
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 1:51:47 PM EST
just one more reason why cops NEED assault rifles!!!
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 1:55:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 1:58:04 PM EST by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: Ah yes, the old "Tried to kill me with the car defense." I haven't heard that one before! [devil]
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Now you have [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=163428[/url] It happens more than you can believe. When I do a traffic stop the first thing I tell the driver is to place the car in park and turn off the ignition. I make sure they do it. From that point on, any attempt to turn the car on, or put the car in gear, before I have told the driver he is free to go, will be percieved as an attempt to run me down. If I see those back up lights come on while I'm behind your car writing a ticket, you will get a bullet in the back of your head.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:05:32 PM EST
If someone turns their car on or puts it into gear with out your permission you are going to put a bullet in the back of their heads! You sir should not be a cop. Nor should you own a gun.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:26:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan: From that point on, any attempt to turn the car on, or put the car in gear, before I have told the driver he is free to go, will be percieved as an attempt to run me down. If I see those back up lights come on while I'm behind your car writing a ticket, you will get a bullet in the back of your head.
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You are a freaking maniac. I hope when and if they come to take my guns from me it's a cop like you.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:27:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 2:33:07 PM EST by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By Dale007: If someone turns their car on or puts it into gear with out your permission you are going to put a bullet in the back of their heads! You sir should not be a cop. Nor should you own a gun.
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Did you fail reading comprehension in school? Read the entire post. The DA office supports this position. We have a 100% filing rate on drivers, for CPC 664-245 (Attempt-Assualt With Deadly Weapon), on drivers who turn their cars on, or shift them into gear, after having been lawfully detained and told to turn the car off. If I'm behind the car and you put it in reverse, i will shoot you. If I'm in front of the car and you put it in drive, i will shoot you. At that point you have already made two overt acts, turning the car on and putting it into gear. Should I wait until I'm actually under the car to defend myself?
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:31:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: just one more reason why cops NEED assault rifles!!!
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And SAWs!!!
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:35:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Dale007: If someone turns their car on or puts it into gear with out your permission you are going to put a bullet in the back of their heads! You sir should not be a cop. Nor should you own a gun.
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Did you fail reading comprehension in school? Read the entire post. The DA office supports this position. We have a 100% filing rate on drivers, for CPC 664-245 (Attempt -Assualt With Deadly Weapon, on drivers who turn their cars on, or shift them into gear, after having been lawfully detained and told to turn the car off. If I'm behind the car and you put it in reverse, i will shoot you. If I'm in front of the car and you put it in drive, i will shoot you. Should I wait until I'm actually under the car?
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You know I believe you. I also think it is bullshit. I suppose you would put multiple rounds into somebody reaching for thier wallet to get the ID that you just asked for too.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:41:38 PM EST
5 foot 6 inch tall city cop with less than 10 years on the force?
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:43:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 2:45:04 PM EST by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By dirtbag: 5 foot 6 inch tall city cop with less than 10 years on the force?
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Me? 5'9"-10years-5th largest law enforcement agency in the nation. BTW: Your profiling needs work.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:51:14 PM EST
First, I don't think with THREE officers, that a knife was necessary at all... the link even says that they had her on the ground, with one hand cuffed and her other hand inside the sleeve/under her body. So, mr police officer is worried she is going for a weapon... lets see... 1. let go with one of my hands. 2. grab my kife (perhaps open/unsheath) 3. let go with my OTHER hand. 4. grab w/ free hand her left hand/sleeve. 5. use knife to start chopping the cloth material of her sleeve. Why not just have one of the other FOUR hands available (from the other 2 officers) help him hold her oh-so-dangerous left arm/sleeve? And how is it that he manages to cut completely thru her whole finger and not notice? A cloth jacket and bone are pretty different materials... Before this even happened... they need to give a good reason to mess with her in the first place. A van sitting in a bar parking lot... (from the article) lady is waiting for others to leave the bar, so it's not like the bar's closed down or anything. This, IMO, is just wrong. Even if she hadn't lost her fingertip (and had her middle finger cut up too), What right did the guy have to start cutting up her jacket? Is there a rule that now only 1 of ever 3 officers can attempt to handcuff a person?
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:55:59 PM EST
When I do a traffic stop the first thing I tell the driver is to place the car in park and turn off the ignition. I make sure they do it. From that point on, any attempt to turn the car on, or put the car in gear, before I have told the driver he is free to go, will be percieved as an attempt to run me down. If I see those back up lights come on while I'm behind your car writing a ticket, you will get a bullet in the back of your head.
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My first instinct would be to get out of the way. But then I'm not a stone killer.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:56:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By steenkybastage: First, I don't think with THREE officers, that a knife was necessary at all...
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I think everyone is in agreement about that. You pull a knife during a scuffle someone is gonna get cut. It was reckless and stupid. BTW; he cut the tip of her finger off, probubly no bone was encountered.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 2:58:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 2:59:55 PM EST by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By Crookshanks:
When I do a traffic stop the first thing I tell the driver is to place the car in park and turn off the ignition. I make sure they do it. From that point on, any attempt to turn the car on, or put the car in gear, before I have told the driver he is free to go, will be percieved as an attempt to run me down. If I see those back up lights come on while I'm behind your car writing a ticket, you will get a bullet in the back of your head.
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My first instinct would be to get out of the way. But then I'm not a stone killer.
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Yes, Instinct tells you to run. But training and experiance tells me I cant out run a car.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:10:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Crookshanks:
When I do a traffic stop the first thing I tell the driver is to place the car in park and turn off the ignition. I make sure they do it. From that point on, any attempt to turn the car on, or put the car in gear, before I have told the driver he is free to go, will be percieved as an attempt to run me down. If I see those back up lights come on while I'm behind your car writing a ticket, you will get a bullet in the back of your head.
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My first instinct would be to get out of the way. But then I'm not a stone killer.
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Yes, Instinct tells you to run. But training and experiance tells me I cant out run a car.
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Yes I know. But think about it. A car is almost 20 feet long. When you make a traffic stop, the car is at the side of the road. How difficult is it to take a couple of sideways steps to avoid it? A car can't maneuver like a human. Or better yet, position yourself at the side of the car to begin with. I have to say it. Your post scares me.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:12:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Crookshanks:
When I do a traffic stop the first thing I tell the driver is to place the car in park and turn off the ignition. I make sure they do it. From that point on, any attempt to turn the car on, or put the car in gear, before I have told the driver he is free to go, will be percieved as an attempt to run me down. If I see those back up lights come on while I'm behind your car writing a ticket, you will get a bullet in the back of your head.
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My first instinct would be to get out of the way. But then I'm not a stone killer.
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Yes, Instinct tells you to run. But training and experiance tells me I cant out run a car.
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Yes, but training and experience should also keep you from standing in front of or behind the vehicle. MOVE THRU, don't stop and linger. Two steps and you are clear at any time. Much quicker than pulling the Glock!
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:20:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 3:22:19 PM EST by 82ndAbn]
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:24:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By steenkybastage: First, I don't think with THREE officers, that a knife was necessary at all...
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I think everyone is in agreement about that. You pull a knife during a scuffle someone is gonna get cut. It was reckless and stupid. BTW; he cut the tip of her finger off, probubly no bone was encountered.
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from article:
He severed her left ring finger at the top knuckle and deeply cut her middle finger, she said. Police at the scene recovered the fingertip, but it could not be reattached.
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severed at the top knuckle... I took that to mean the bone right around the top knuckle, or by some freak of nature it went thru the joint itself and popped the two bones apart, only damaging ligaments and flesh. I could be wrong. (and frequently am)
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:24:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By tomcatphixer: [Yes, but training and experience should also keep you from standing in front of or behind the vehicle. MOVE THRU, don't stop and linger. Two steps and you are clear at any time. Much quicker than pulling the Glock!
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I agree. In fact our written policy is to NEVER under any circumstances walk or stand between your own patrol car and the suspect vehilce. Unfortunately suspects do some really stupid stuff, like stopping in the middle lane of a multi-lane freeway, or pulling into an Alley or narrow parking lot. Most times the suspect is doing this becuase he is nervous, stupid, or impaired. Sometimes he is doing it to deliberately set you up. Then you have to improvise in where you position yourself during the stop. In front of or behind the suspect vehicle are the two worst places you can be. Yet sometimes that's where cops find themselves.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:28:23 PM EST
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn: BTW, publicly announcing that you would [s]summarily execute[/s] murder a citizen for starting the engine of their vehicle prior to your "authorization" is not a wise decision.
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Please show me where i said that...
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:29:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:34:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 3:36:46 PM EST by AR15fan]
Show me where I said I would "murder a citizen for starting the engine of their vehicle". In your opinion, at what point is it okay to defend myself against a assault with a 2000 pound club? After I've been struck? If the engine was off, and now its on, I'm behind the vehilce, and the backup lights just came on, I've waited long enough.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:37:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:41:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 3:46:12 PM EST by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:
[red]From that point on, any attempt to turn the car on, or put the car in gear, before I have told the driver he is free to go, will be percieved as an attempt to run me down.[/red]
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If someone starts their engine. You would interpret that as an attempt to "run you down". What would you do if someone attempted to "run you down"?
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As I have already posted. I have, and will arrest them for CPC 664-245. Unless I am Directly infront of or behind the vehicle. In which case its kill the suspect or be run over.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:43:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 3:48:16 PM EST
You might have [i]meant[/i] that you would only shoot if in front of or behind the vehicle but that's not the way it came out. It sounded (reads) like you are saying that you would shoot while standing at the driver's window after a stop was completed. Almost as if you would execute the citizen if they started the car as you handed the person their copy of the ticket, prior to your permission to leave.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 4:03:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 4:04:31 PM EST
Just a few names from the past to bring this subject a little more clarity. Drew Bolan, Austin Police. Run over by a drunk and killed. Went to his funeral. Ricky Hunter. Austin Police. Deliberately run over and killed by fleeing felon traveling over 100 mph. Went to his funeral. Albert Muniz. Austin Police. Run over ambush style, when crossing street. Been in a coma for over a year, pretty much no brain function, will never wake up. Suspects never caught. I have 6 other names, all people I know, who are medically retired or had extended (1+ years) medical rehab before coming back to work, all because some dick tried to take them out with a car. I have a motor officer friend in the hospital right now because the guy stopped and then backed over him before he could get off the bike. Crushed his leg. I have been VERY lucky twice. First time the only thing that kept me alive was the ability to fall over a Jersey barrier backwards. Damn right I'm going to shoot you. Every round in the gun is headed right for the back of your head.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 4:48:53 PM EST
I back AR15fan 100%. If a person understands enough to put the car in park and cut the ignition, I'd assume they understand not to turn it back on and try to run over a police officer. That said, I'd probably step out of the way/duck if I hear the engine starting, and would fire at the car and/or person if I deemed they posed a significant threat.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 4:53:30 PM EST
Johninaustin, that makes a VERY good point. It is a reality and should be properly dealt with to avoid things like this. A person attempting to run you over evidently has murderous intent, and if the situation calls for it you should return that intent just as forcefully.
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 5:38:05 PM EST
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Dale007: If someone turns their car on or puts it into gear with out your permission you are going to put a bullet in the back of their heads! You sir should not be a cop. Nor should you own a gun.
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Did you fail reading comprehension in school? Read the entire post. The DA office supports this position. We have a 100% filing rate on drivers, for CPC 664-245 (Attempt-Assualt With Deadly Weapon), on drivers who turn their cars on, or shift them into gear, after having been lawfully detained and told to turn the car off. If I'm behind the car and you put it in reverse, i will shoot you. If I'm in front of the car and you put it in drive, i will shoot you. At that point you have already made two overt acts, turning the car on and putting it into gear. Should I wait until I'm actually under the car to defend myself?
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[rant]Gee havnt you ever thought of MOVING!!? I hate to say it but by the time you could reach your gun and bring it to bear youd be dead under the car. Thats just common sense. Get out of the way. But it would be smarter in your case to NOT put yourself into very obvious harm in the first place. Thats like going into a ghetto with an "I hate N*****S tshirt and getting surprised when you get jumped and get the shit beat out of you. learn to stay out of harms way and dont be so eager to kill someone when its your own damn fualt in the first place. You sir are an example of why cops should be treated the way they currently are.[/rant]
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