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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 6/23/2002 6:18:02 PM EDT
NEWCASTLE — A veteran King County sheriff’s deputy was killed yesterday when a nude and highly agitated man who’d been running in traffic and pounding on cars took the officer’s gun and shot him repeatedly outside an apartment complex here. [url=http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/134480625_deputy23m0.html]Deputy shot dead after man takes gun [/url]
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 6:19:58 PM EDT
This is why we [b]need[/b] safe guns.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 6:27:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 6:29:51 PM EDT
The pepper spray tactic is what I think did the Officer in. The crazy naked guy was too close. Some people just need to be shot to stop them. The tactic of 'less than lethal' force ended up being the lethal blow to the Officer. The whole scenario was way beyond common steps to end it. Of course, the man was naked. He wasn't armed. Yet. This is a tragic ending to a very weird story.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 6:30:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2002 6:31:45 PM EDT by ColonelKlink]
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 6:33:06 PM EDT
should of gotten a better holster. but i will pray for the family
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 6:46:42 PM EDT
Sad. But consider the lose-lose scenario for this officer. 1. Shoot naked guy. Lose job, get prosecuted for manslaughter, go to jail. 2. Attempt to subdue. Spray mace. Crazy guy grabs gun and kills you. An argument for smart guns? Maybe. An argument for better procedures and backup? Yes.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 6:48:44 PM EDT
This is a sad story. My thoughts go out to the family and friends of this officer. This is a perfect example of the gray area where shoot or not to shoot is not clear. Obviously people aren't suppose to shoot unarmed people. But yet when dealing with an agitated, psychotic person, this is no average unarmed individual. People in this type of state are tremendously strong and may be subject to do anything. In these cases, firing if threatened with attack may be the smartest thing. But this I'm sure would spark a shit storm of controversy these days. So be it. There are all sorts of questions here and I am not going to get into all the hindsight stuff. Maybe this officer should have stayed back and waited for back up...but maybe there were lots of innocent people in danger and he had no choice but to intervene for their protection.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 6:55:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2002 6:55:48 PM EDT by anti-gov-tinfoil-man]
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: This is a sad story. My thoughts go out to the family and friends of this officer. This is a perfect example of the gray area where shoot or not to shoot is not clear. Obviously people aren't suppose to shoot unarmed people. But yet when dealing with an agitated, psychotic person, this is no average unarmed individual. People in this type of state are tremendously strong and may be subject to do anything. In these cases, firing if threatened with attack may be the smartest thing. But this I'm sure would spark a shit storm of controversy these days. So be it.
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I'll admit that if the story had been "cop plugs naked crazy guy" I would have criticized him for excessive force. Sad story.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 6:57:29 PM EDT
sad thing[:(] trap your primary in it's holster and kill him with your backup!
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 7:02:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2002 7:02:22 PM EDT by ColonelKlink]
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 7:23:39 PM EDT
Like Phil_A_Steen said, the best possible end was the officer spends probably 5-10 years in jail for manslaughter. Even if he beat the guy with an ASP, they'd yell about excessive force and he'd have been fired or worse. [V]
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 7:26:44 PM EDT
Reporters are scum. The William Atherton portrayal of the weasel reporter in Die Hard (who broadcasts Bruce Willis' name to the terrorists) was pretty accurate as far as I can tell.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 8:46:54 PM EDT
Anybody know if it was a Glock?
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:23:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen: Sad. But consider the lose-lose scenario for this officer. 1. Shoot guy. Lose job, get prosecuted for manslaughter, go to jail. 2. Attempt to subdue. Spray mace. Crazy guy grabs gun and kills you. An argument for smart guns? Maybe. An argument for better procedures and backup? Yes.
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i vote for better procedures and backup.....it may happen in 10 - 20 yrs after all the paperwork to get it into motion and then revise it and do more paperwork and then re revise it and more paperwork and then another officer gets shot and someone calls for more procedures and the process starts over and over untill Jesus Returns!
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:40:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: Yeah the thing that pisses me off is after the police asked them not to release his name as they had not notified the next of kin, of course the shitheads at the seattle times dug around and found his name and published it. Guy was married with kids. It should have been a Chaplain giving the bad news, not a friggen reporter.
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Yeah, some of those news reporters would sell their soul to the devil to get a scope. Yep, this a good case for "smart" guns, because there is a good number of police officers are killed with their own guns. I think Massad Ayoob advocates carry pistols with the safety in "on" position because it would take the bad-guy a moment to disengage the safety.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:43:49 PM EDT
reporter names on the top of the article. Everyone should send a nice little email to the two dumbasses **this is Mrs. SNorman
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:54:53 PM EDT
I was wondering when someone was going to post this. It is really sad [:(]and it really pisses me off. 2 deputys in two years...[:(!] [Rant on] 1)What ever happened to calling/waiting for back-up? Survival! Do your job but try to stay alive to do it the next day...As most of my senior officer friends would say. 2)We live in a State where CCW is perfectly legal, why did no one come his AID! There had to be someone that was armed or is Bellevue to high classed. The Police/Sheriffs are there to protcet us but if we can help shouldn't we try. [Rant off] My prayers go out the the family, and to the fellow officer for losing another Brother. May GOD BLESS and Comfort you all in this time of loss. JAGA
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:58:52 PM EDT
Sad,the cop should have grap for the man nuts and pulled them off. Sounds like washington has some great drugs there.[}:D]
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 10:04:36 PM EDT
I would just like to express my condolences to the officers family. I being a police officer pray to God every shift, that I don't leave my wife a widow. I don't think many people realize what it is like for a spouse to worry like that everyday, it is a lot different than most jobs out there. I just wanted to also say thanks to all of you who responded on this and that your understanding of the dangers of police work is very accurate and I appreciate those who agree that sometimes deadly force is an option when dealing with an unarmed individual. It is a last resort, but sometimes one that needs to be used. I sometimes get so mad that everyone is out to get cops, then I read something like this and realize that the majority of the public is supportive of law enforcement, and it's the small percentage of citizens that are anti-police. Thanks and thanks for letting me babble, it just tears at my heart hearing something like this.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 10:30:18 PM EDT
Yeah, I was disappointed that no one with a CCW was around to pop this guy. Bellevue actually has TWO CCW schools in town, Weapons Safety and Wade's. I copied this follow up from NWCn since they now require registration: Fallen deputy identified as seven-year veteran 06/23/2002 NEWCASTLE, Wash. - Members of the King County Sheriff's Dept. are mourning the loss of one of their own. A deputy, identified Sunday as 46-year-old Rich Herzog, was shot with his own gun as he tried to apprehend a suspect in Newcastle on Saturday. Herzog, a married father of two teenage daughters, had worked for the sheriff's office for seven years, nearly four with the police department in Newcastle, a city about 10 miles southeast of Seattle that contracts with the King County Sheriff's Office. Herzog's neighbors still can't believe what has happened. "I couldn't sleep last night," said neighbor Carl Vest. "Really, I couldn't sleep because of the knowledge that the family's been torn apart." Investigators say a naked man was harassing drivers along Newcastle's Coal Creek Parkway Saturday afternoon. When the deputy arrived he soon found himself struggling with the naked suspect and using non-lethal means in an attempt to subdue him. [*] KING King County Deputy Rich Herzog "When the cop was pepper spraying I seen that, and then the guy grabbed the cop?s gun right out of his holster. The cop then realized that the gun was gone, turned around to run and the guy popped him in the back three times,? says witness Jeremy Woods. "The officer fell down and then he just stood right over top of him on the left side of the street by the sign over there and just unloaded the gun on him. Just bam, bam, bam, bam, bam,? says Tweedell. Sheriff Dave Reichert called the shooting "absolute carnage." "It certainly appears that Deputy Herzog was executed," Reichert said. Witnesses watched the man run to a nearby apartment where he reportedly called police and surrendered. He left behind an incredible scene filled with angry, grieving deputies. "This person was a human being. I mean he?s a part of everybody. This is a loss for the whole community. This isn?t just a loss for the sheriff?s office employees and the close friends and the family,? said Sheriff Dave Reichert.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 10:31:09 PM EDT
Every one in this community ought to be damn angry. We ought to all be angry. This kind of stuff has got to stop. That's how angry I am, and it brings back memories of people I lost over the last 30 years and that's what's hard,? said Reichert, his voice breaking with emotion. The name of the man dozens of witnesses said they saw shoot Herzog Saturday evening was not released. But at a news conference Sunday afternoon, authorities said the man was recently released from the Washington state prison system, where he served time for assaulting an officer. On Sunday, a memorial was growing at the site of the shooting. The man, said to be in his 40s, was being held at the Regional Justice Center in Kent. Memorial grows The ultimate sacrifice made by Deputy Rich Herzog is not going unnoticed. Sensing how the death of a police officer is a blow to us all, people made their way Sunday to where Deputy Herzog was shot down to say goodbye - and thank you. It was a still a small memorial when Stacy Baker showed up Sunday morning. He saw the shooting happen Saturday, and can't stop thinking about how it ended. "Stood over him and shot him two, three times in the back of the head ... I stood there, watched the whole thing and couldn't even do anything,? he says. Throughout the day the memorial grew. All morning long people came and left notes, flowers, candles and prayers. "Just take care of the policeman that risked his life for everybody," said 10-year-old Christopher Robins. Brinkley Barr, 49, came all the way from Woodinville to pay his respects. "I wanted him to know the community is behind him," Barr said. "It's easy to think nobody cares. The 99 percent of us who don't get hauled off to jail are appreciative." Newcastle resident Brian Curl, 35, saw Herzog patrolling his street just a few days ago. Stacy Baker saw the shooting happen Saturday, and can't stop thinking about how it ended. "My daughter was waving to him and he was waving back," Curl said. "The officers in Newcastle are just great people." Newcastle Police Chief Shawn Ledford called Herzog "a dedicated family man who talked a lot about his wife and children. Rich was a good guy, a hard-working officer and very professional." Most visitors never met the slain deputy, others know all too well the risks officers face on daily basis. "I'm SPD, a Seattle police officer, and so when an officer dies, a little bit of me dies as well, so ?" said Officer Pete Madison. It's an impressive outpouring of support, respect and sorrow by those who never met the officer, and those who tried to help him. "He was ... I checked his pulse, he was gone," said Baker. Newcastle Mayor John Dulcich said a chaplain will be available for city employees and the city's residents beginning Monday morning at City Hall. KING 5's Gary Chittim, Eric Wilkinson and The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 10:54:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord:
Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: Yeah the thing that pisses me off is after the police asked them not to release his name as they had not notified the next of kin, of course the shitheads at the seattle times dug around and found his name and published it. Guy was married with kids. It should have been a Chaplain giving the bad news, not a friggen reporter.
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Yeah, some of those news reporters would sell their soul to the devil to get a scoop. Yep, this a good case for "smart" guns, because there is a good number of police officers are killed with their own guns. I think Massad Ayoob advocates carry pistols with the safety in "on" position because it would take the bad-guy a moment to disengage the safety.
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Link Posted: 6/23/2002 10:55:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord:
Originally Posted By ColonelKlink: Yeah the thing that pisses me off is after the police asked them not to release his name as they had not notified the next of kin, of course the shitheads at the seattle times dug around and found his name and published it. Guy was married with kids. It should have been a Chaplain giving the bad news, not a friggen reporter.
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Yeah, some of those news reporters would sell their soul to the devil to get a scoop. Yep, this a good case for "smart" guns, because there is a good number of police officers are killed with their own guns. I think Massad Ayoob advocates carry pistols with the safety in "on" position because it would take the bad-guy a moment to disengage the safety.
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Link Posted: 6/23/2002 11:55:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2002 11:58:40 PM EDT by USNJoe]
Local Seattle liberal AM station (KIRO) afternoon talk show (Brian Maloney show): Brian: So what do you think Seattle? How come there is no outcry from the communities that want the police to NOT use deadly force to protect themselves? Caller: Well, the cop shouldn't aa tried to shoot the guy with his gun. Brian: Were did you get that? Caller: How else did the guy get the cops gun? Brian: Didn't you listen to the news? The officer went up to subdue the guy with pepper spray, he was attacked and the guy too the officers gun and shot him with it. Caller: What I want to know is why the cop had his gun out in the first place. Why didn't he use mace to stop the guy? This is what I mean, the cops pull out their guns first and start shooting. Brian: The officer did use pepper spray on the guy, in fact he did it three times. Caller: I don't believe it. If someone was sprayed with pepper spray they would stop right there on the spot. At this point I had to turn off the radio or else I would have shot it...... Question from Brian Maloney: ---DID A KING COUNTY DEPUTY die partly because of somebody else's political ideology? This is the debate that will surely ignite this week after the savage shooting of an officer in Newcastle yesterday by a crazed, naked man. The officer's gun was taken from him after non-lethal force failed to stop the suspect. Those that have put pressure on the police to use non-lethal means have lost their argument for good. Do cop-haters share in the responsibility for what happened? My answer: Hell yes.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 3:12:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By USNJoe: The officer's gun was taken from him after non-lethal force failed to stop the suspect. Those that have put pressure on the police to use non-lethal means have lost their argument for good. Do cop-haters share in the responsibility for what happened? My answer: Hell yes.
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So are you saying they should resort to lethal force in all cases? Nonsense. He was right to try non-lethal force against a naked dude, just because things went wrong this time doesn't mean the cops should be roving executioners.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 3:52:28 AM EDT
Most likely the naked guy was on meth. People high on meth like to strip down to cool off and run around doing crazy shit like that. Just knowing that I would have probably come in with my gun drawn and ordered the guy down on the ground. I can't believe that this naked guy was running through traffic pounding on cars and nobody had kicked his ass yet. It would have turned out completely different down here. This whole thing is really sad for the deputy and his family.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 4:23:45 AM EDT
Where is a Tazer when you need one?
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 8:28:14 AM EDT
Local sources report that there was a armed civilian nearby, but couldn't get a shot off because of people behind the target. W
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:01:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2002 9:01:37 AM EDT by NOVA5]
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen: Where is a Tazer when you need one?
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imagine if the tazer missed and hit 2 feet down... OWW talk about a stopper..
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 1:41:17 PM EDT
Question; where was the deceased's body armor and backup gun??
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 6:22:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2002 6:23:11 PM EDT by FishKepr]
The deputy WAS wearing body armor. I heard that the first shots knocked him down and the guy then shot him the back of the head. No word on a backup gun.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:05:29 PM EDT
Don't cops use nightsticks anymore? I would think he would have been able to take this guy down in pretty short order.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:46:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ChuckT: Don't cops use nightsticks anymore? I would think he would have been able to take this guy down in pretty short order.
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1) OC is usually preferable to a baton for 2 reasons. Safety and liability. OC can be delivered from up to 10' away. Most police batons are 26" or less. OC causes the recipient to have difficulty seeing, limiting their ability to attack. Batons can cause permanent damage. Making personal injury lawyers salivate. 2) Collapsable batons, though metal etc., are often ineffective. I only know 1 officer that has used his baton in appx the last 10 years on the dept I work for, with 400+ LEO's. The person he was hitting, was hit several times (7?), responding by saying things like "stop it" "ow" and then ran away. He finally stopped himself by trying to run down an icey sidewalk while wearing cowboy boots. FYI the baton bent and needed to be replaced. 3) What if in the incident the suspect was actually having a diabetic reaction, or some other medical type incident, how would you feel about an officer batoning him? 4) The Deputy might have approached the suspect, fearing that if he didn't do something the suspect might be hit by an automobile etc. 5) The SO there apparently issues G-22's and Safariland 070 level III retention holsters. The Deputy was wearing body armor. Apparently he tried to run when he realized the suspect had his weapon, and was shot in the back, and lost his balance. He was then executed. 6) The Deputy had retired from the US Army and had been a Deputy for appx. 8 years.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:55:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By ChuckT: Don't cops use nightsticks anymore? I would think he would have been able to take this guy down in pretty short order.
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1) OC is usually preferable to a baton for 2 reasons. Safety and liability. OC can be delivered from up to 10' away. Most police batons are 26" or less. OC causes the recipient to have difficulty seeing, limiting their ability to attack. Batons can cause permanent damage. Making personal injury lawyers salivate. 2) Collapsable batons, though metal etc., are often ineffective. I only know 1 officer that has used his baton in appx the last 10 years on the dept I work for, with 400+ LEO's. The person he was hitting, was hit several times (7?), responding by saying things like "stop it" "ow" and then ran away. He finally stopped himself by trying to run down an icey sidewalk while wearing cowboy boots. FYI the baton bent and needed to be replaced. 3) What if in the incident the suspect was actually having a diabetic reaction, or some other medical type incident, how would you feel about an officer batoning him? 4) The Deputy might have approached the suspect, fearing that if he didn't do something the suspect might be hit by an automobile etc. 5) The SO there apparently issues G-22's and Safariland 070 level III retention holsters. The Deputy was wearing body armor. Apparently he tried to run when he realized the suspect had his weapon, and was shot in the back, and lost his balance. He was then executed. 6) The Deputy had retired from the US Army and had been a Deputy for appx. 8 years.
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No backup gun? Was this department policy?
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:58:06 PM EDT
Arndlbrl, Huh?? I have no idea, and didn't even try to address that.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:06:08 PM EDT
Originally posted by Ponyboy Most likely the naked guy was on meth. People high on meth like to strip down to cool off and run around doing crazy shit like that.
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I was thinking it sounded more like PCP. The whole naked delerious aggressive thing seems to be a common side-effect to that drug. My heart goes out to that officer's family, friends, and colleagues. I hurts me to hear the overall tone that he got what he deserved from some of those citizens, but I guess that's life. It takes all kinds to make the world go around --- even liberal shitbags. Saleen
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:14:49 PM EDT
I too was thinking possibly PCP. Besides that, many departments don't allow a backup gun. I have worked for 4 different departments in 2 states, and not one allow a backup gun. I am buying one to carry anyway. Go ahead and fire me, because I will at least be alive to see my wife again. If it is a justified shooting, they can't charge me criminally, only administrative action. So I am going to carry one now, I have been thinking about it for a while and looked at one today!
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:43:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By ChuckT: Don't cops use nightsticks anymore? I would think he would have been able to take this guy down in pretty short order.
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1) OC is usually preferable to a baton for 2 reasons. Safety and liability. OC can be delivered from up to 10' away. Most police batons are 26" or less. OC causes the recipient to have difficulty seeing, limiting their ability to attack. Batons can cause permanent damage. Making personal injury lawyers salivate. 2) Collapsable batons, though metal etc., are often ineffective. I only know 1 officer that has used his baton in appx the last 10 years on the dept I work for, with 400+ LEO's. The person he was hitting, was hit several times (7?), responding by saying things like "stop it" "ow" and then ran away. He finally stopped himself by trying to run down an icey sidewalk while wearing cowboy boots. FYI the baton bent and needed to be replaced. 3) What if in the incident the suspect was actually having a diabetic reaction, or some other medical type incident, how would you feel about an officer batoning him? 4) The Deputy might have approached the suspect, fearing that if he didn't do something the suspect might be hit by an automobile etc. 5) The SO there apparently issues G-22's and Safariland 070 level III retention holsters. The Deputy was wearing body armor. Apparently he tried to run when he realized the suspect had his weapon, and was shot in the back, and lost his balance. He was then executed. 6) The Deputy had retired from the US Army and had been a Deputy for appx. 8 years.
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Thanks for the info. The news here said the pepper spray only works about 80% of the time (I thought it was more like 92%), so what's the next level? This guy was obviously incoherent and unarmed. You can't shoot him, that's why I was thinking nightstick/baton. As a LEO, what's your next option? I personally find it terribly sad that this deputy lost his life. It seems to me he should have had other options. And I definitely don't understand the "no backup firearm" rule. Is that just one less gun for a bad guy to take from you and use against you?
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 9:53:20 PM EDT
I can't believe it , some yo-yo actually had to mention a racial angle on the local Seattle news station ... dumbf*cks!!
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 10:09:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2002 10:15:21 PM EDT by DarkHelmet]
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 10:11:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 10:18:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 10:27:00 PM EDT
From what little I know of this, the suspect had a prior record for similar behavior & was actually, legitimately mentally ill. Bellevue PD, having dealt w/ him in the past, had asked that corrections send out notification upon his release back into the community. Even so, they were never notified. Thus, if the officer had known that the suspect was on release, he might have approach the situation differently, called for backup prior to engaging, avoiding the tragedy. Mentally health assessment is based on an grossly inaccurate, PC model that does not admit to the truth - that either a forced medication regimen or permanent incarceration is the [u]only[/u] answer in certain cases. The suspect in question should have either have been regularly medicated (if it could work) or never released into the general public. Period.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 10:59:22 PM EDT
What are you, a friggin moron? Read what I posted, looking closely at the sentances woth the funny looking upside-down "j's". I'll give you a hint, there are TWO sentances with the funny looking upside-down "j's". Then ask your moronic question to yourself again.
Originally Posted By anti-gov-tinfoil-man: So are you saying they should resort to lethal force in all cases? Nonsense. He was right to try non-lethal force against a naked dude, just because things went wrong this time doesn't mean the cops should be roving executioners.
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Link Posted: 6/25/2002 1:00:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ChuckT: Thanks for the info. The news here said the pepper spray only works about 80% of the time (I thought it was more like 92%), so what's the next level? This guy was obviously incoherent and unarmed. You can't shoot him, that's why I was thinking nightstick/baton. As a LEO, what's your next option? I personally find it terribly sad that this deputy lost his life. It seems to me he should have had other options. And I definitely don't understand the "no backup firearm" rule. Is that just one less gun for a bad guy to take from you and use against you?
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80%-92% whatever, it depends on lots of things. Too much spray means that it takes longer for the "carrier" substance to dissolve and the OC to get going. To little........ Plus factors like was the OC a stream or fog type dispenser. Tough to miss with a fog, but you usaully will get some yourself, and a bunch of the spray will miss the suspect. With a "stream" you can miss with all of it, but if you hit you generally get a sufficient amount on the person. Intoxication or mental health issues can make the spray less effective. Plus never underestimate someones determination to fight through pain. Plus like lots of things some people are just wiped out by OC, most have a "normal" reaction, and some feel it far less. Generally use of a baton is just below use of a firearm, as far as force level and the legal justification required to use it. I don't know what else was happening. Apparenlty the Deputy was a retired Army guy, and may have been a combat arms type. So he was probably very well trained to deal with a violent situation. When the Deputy intervened: Was the subject trying to attack someone? Was the subject escalating, throwing things, trying to get an improvised weapon? Did the Deputy attempt to talk, only to have the suspect begin advancing on him? Was the Deputy concerned about the suspect's safety? ie: trying to keep HIM out of traffic etc. How far away was the next closest back up? Was there any back up AVAILABLE? Was this a dispatched call? Was the info in the call accurate? or was it simply "check person in traffic". Did the Deputy happen upon this without being dispatched? As far as the back-up gun, I have no idea, on another site there was a poster familiar with this SO, and indicated the duty weapon was a G-22. Some places don't issue DUTY hanguns, most issue duty handguns, very few issue BUG's. Some prohibit the use of BUG's. Some allow them as long as the meet certain criteria, caliber, maker, registered w/dept., and able to qualify with, to name a few. I don't know what the policy is there, or if there are possibly laws that prohibit a BUG. Some places feel a BUG is to easy to use as a "drop gun". Here's a problem though, most BUG's by nature have to be concealed. That means the are smaller than the duty gun and sometimes use a "smaller" caliber then the duty weapon. Of course since they are concealed they may be more difficult to get to. The Deputy in this incident may have felt it would be quicker, better tactically, to get away from the suspect, possibly to get to cover or just make it harder for the suspect to hit him. Or he could have been trying to get to the car, to get to the radio, emergency button, or long guns. I don't know, I'm guessing, we will never know for sure.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 4:40:17 AM EDT
Sadly, this is the same old story in policing now. This deputy died because he was trying not to kill a man who was trying to kill him. He was trying not to kill him because of the hostile political climate that surrounds police work now. Had he shot this guy, he would have been hung for shooting an unarmed man. Never mind the fact that a full grown violent mental case IS A WEAPON. In policing you always "get yourself killed". He should have waited for backup, went on and shot him, sprayed him then nightsticked him, used a second gun. The list goes on and on. Solutions offered by chairborne rangers who haven't been in a fight since jr high and have never been in any real shit. People get killed in the street. But it's a crying shame when they are killed because of PC thinking that is forced upon them by a shaky administration and a public who sees the police as doing nothing right. This man was there. He decided he had to engage this guy right now. Maybe it was to keep his crazy ass from getting on the bus or yanking open the car door of some mom. He will be criticized for "getting himself killed" by some, but still won't be fried like he would have been if he had "shot an unarmed black man" who was "acting out" and "just needed his meds". He may be better off dead than living through the shitstorm that would have occurred if he had used the level of force THAT NEEDED TO BE USED TO SIMPLY SURVIVE. It's a shame the way it is.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 8:09:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 9:29:59 AM EDT
My thoughts and prayers for him and his family. A comment on the ASP. All the trainers and advocates can sat what they want but in my personal opinion and experience the expandable batons are best for rational, normal people, people who are intimidated by the opening action. The effectiveness is not what the old nite sticks is or was. We now carry so much crap that we look for compromises. An ASP is one. OC works great, most of the time. This makes me think maybe I ought to dig out the PR-24 from my closet. DAMN DAMN DAMN.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 11:48:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FishKepr: King County Deputy Rich Herzog "When the cop was pepper spraying I seen that, and then the guy grabbed the cop?s gun right out of his holster. The cop then realized that the gun was gone, turned around to run and the guy popped him in the back three times,? says witness Jeremy Woods.
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Warning: Monday morning quarterbacking follows.... It's unclear if this was a weapon retetion training failure or an equipment failure. For all we know the nut ripped the holster right off the belt, I have seen it happen. As for "turned around to run". NEVER retreat to cover. If there is cover between you and your attacker, fine, move to it. But never turn your back to retreat to cover. I've been to too many funerals as a result of this stupid tactic. The immediate action drill to an ambush is to face, close with, and destroy the threat. If you turn and run you will most likely die, if you take the fight to your attacker you got at least a 50/50 chance of going home.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 12:28:37 PM EDT
All this brings up a very good point. Our modern world is beyond the point of no return. We are so F'd, our society would rather take chances with our Police's lives, then to take chances with criminal's lives. Of course this is washinton we're talking about here, with all those hippies crying about this and that, this is bound to happen. If this Nation could just see the light and understand, to successfully fight crime, it's going to have to be a joint effort of both cops and civilians. Gun owners are not criminals, criminals are criminals.
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