Posted: 1/28/2015 12:59:20 AM EDT
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I'm looking at getting my 1st can.
Is there a significant difference between 130db and 135db? I'm looking at Silencerco's Specwar and SpecwarK. |
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I believe a 10dB increase is perceived, by a human, as being roughly twice as loud. Although that's an approximation, it would imply that the 135dB can would be perceived as about 40 - 50% louder than the 130dB. That seems significant. Eventually this can will be on a SBR. So I'm weighing on the side of the longer, quieter can. |
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First, understand that what can be measured and what is detectable by the human ear are two different things. dBa is a measurement, not a perception. Every 10 is an order of magnitude increase meaning 10 times more. A doubling is a little over 3dbs. Consider this: Suppressed .45 at 130 dBa and unsuppressed is 160. (it probably won't be that good) - Starting at 130 - 140 is 10 times louder - 150 is 10 times louder than that - 160 is 10 times louder than that - Thus the unsuppressed shot is 1000 times more powerful (translates to louder) than the suppressed one. Yes, the implication is that if a suppressor could knock it down to 120, the 160 figure would be 10,000 times louder. Again, this is a power measurement and is why guns majorly damage your hearing. What your brain detects is a bitch slapping by varying degrees of blast. I usually laugh at those who think that suppressors don't do much and are not worth it if the guns don't get Hollywood quiet. |
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Quoted:
First, understand that what can be measured and what is detectable by the human ear are two different things. dBa is a measurement, not a perception. Every 10 is an order of magnitude increase meaning 10 times more. A doubling is a little over 3dbs. Consider this: Suppressed .45 at 130 dBa and unsuppressed is 160. (it probably won't be that good) - Starting at 130 - 140 is 10 times louder - 150 is 10 times louder than that - 160 is 10 times louder than that - Thus the unsuppressed shot is 1000 times more powerful (translates to louder) than the suppressed one. Yes, the implication is that if a suppressor could knock it down to 120, the 160 figure would be 10,000 times louder. Again, this is a power measurement and is why guns majorly damage your hearing. What your brain detects is a bitch slapping by varying degrees of blast. I usually laugh at those who think that suppressors don't do much and are not worth it if the guns don't get Hollywood quiet. Almost like Warp Speed 
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You're very helpful. Quoted:
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Get a .22 can first. You're very helpful. It isn't bad advice. anyway, i can tell the difference between my short. 308 can (brand x)and a buddies longer .308 can(brand y) (both on 5.56 rifles). You can't trump physics. On a limited budget, I'd rather have a short .308 than any other centerfire suppressor. To me, the versatility of being a multi-cal can combined with being easier to handle outweigh the downside (it's slightly louder). i wouldn't get caught up in chasing dB. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Ok.
Let's get this out there for those who like to push their opinion. I am not buying a 7.62 can. I don't own, nor will I be buying a 7.62 firearm anytime soon. A Silencerco Warlock is going to be a quick follow up purchase. I don't have a .22lr, but my daughter has an AR-22. I only really need to save for the transfer and the stamp for this one. The 5.56 money is already allocated. Stamp included. Now... Back to the relevant discussion. |
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That seems significant. Eventually this can will be on a SBR. So I'm weighing on the side of the longer, quieter can. Quoted:
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I believe a 10dB increase is perceived, by a human, as being roughly twice as loud. Although that's an approximation, it would imply that the 135dB can would be perceived as about 40 - 50% louder than the 130dB. That seems significant. Eventually this can will be on a SBR. So I'm weighing on the side of the longer, quieter can. Unfortunately, I've never fired a suppressed rifle, much less compared different suppressors. The perceived loudness would depend on a lot of environmental factors as well as the assumption that those SPLs were measured under identical conditions, I imagine, so I don't know how significant the difference would be in the real world. You might be able to find some first hand accounts in the suppressor forum. |
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Quoted: Have you ever heard a suppressed centerfire rifle in person? If not you may be in for serious disappointment. That is probably where the "get a .22 first" comment came from. I wasn't disappointed, but I was realistic about it. It makes a HUGE difference, making .308 sound like an unsuppressed .22, but that's still not exactly quiet. It actually sounds like a .22 rifle doing a duet with a catastrophically blowing tire. 
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Have you ever heard a suppressed centerfire rifle in person? If not you may be in for serious disappointment. That is probably where the "get a .22 first" comment came from. Yup My suppressed buckmark is Hollywood quiet on standard velocity, high velocities are loud. 147 gr in my 9mm can are an obvious firearm for anyone within 200yards, but safe to shoot without ear pro. 115's require ear pro. My suppressed 5.56 is fuckin loud no matter what, not unsuppressed loud, but fuckin loud. If I could only have one, a .22 is the most rewarding to shoot suppressed |
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Have you ever heard a suppressed centerfire rifle in person? If not you may be in for serious disappointment. That is probably where the "get a .22 first" comment came from. Given that a friend of mine is a C3/SOT, the answer would be yes... Several times. |
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Given that a friend of mine is a C3/SOT, the answer would be yes... Several times. Quoted:
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Have you ever heard a suppressed centerfire rifle in person? If not you may be in for serious disappointment. That is probably where the "get a .22 first" comment came from. Given that a friend of mine is a C3/SOT, the answer would be yes... Several times. Then the next question should be, Ever shoot a suppressed .22? |
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Then the next question should be, Ever shoot a suppressed .22? Quoted:
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Have you ever heard a suppressed centerfire rifle in person? If not you may be in for serious disappointment. That is probably where the "get a .22 first" comment came from. Given that a friend of mine is a C3/SOT, the answer would be yes... Several times. Then the next question should be, Ever shoot a suppressed .22? Do you read? Why even bother to post in this thread? I've shot .22lr thru 7.62x51 suppressed. |
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Alot of these numbers people are posting are coming from different types of decibels. There are actually multiple kinds of decibels. dBV (1 volt reference) dBU (.775 reference) dBM (1 milliwatt reference) These 3 are used measure the input/outputs of amplifiers and the like. dBSPL (Sound Pressure Level) is the one you should be concerned about when it comes to sound suppressors. dBSPL uses the 20 log equation dBSPL = 20 log (Power1/Power2) On paper we should perceive an increase of 6dBSPL as twice as loud. It should be noted that this perception can vary from person to person, as some peoples ears have less hearing damage than others  Also we tend to think high end frequencies are louder than low end frequencies, even when they are played at the same dBSPL. Hence why the lower tone suppressors sound better to us than the ones with higher tones. ETA - also I would suggest not getting too caught up in small number differences. Distance from muzzle, temperature, and humidity all affect the measurement. Also it can greatly depend on the device used to measure. Was it a professional SPL meter that was properly calibrated, or was it someones iPotato in waterproof case? |
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Quoted:
First, understand that what can be measured and what is detectable by the human ear are two different things. dBa is a measurement, not a perception. Every 10 is an order of magnitude increase meaning 10 times more. A doubling is a little over 3dbs. Consider this: - Starting at 130 - 140 is 10 times louder Human hearing is logarithmic and “loudness” is a term for quantifying human perception. So while an increase of 10 dB of sound pressure level (power/intensity) is 10 x increase, all else being equal (frequency distribution, timing), it will feel only 2 x as loud. From engineering perspective, achieving a 10 dB reduction is twice as hard as achieving a 5 dB reduction, but results only in a 50 % better improvement from the user perspective. Typically a big centerfire can will achieve a 26-28 dBa reduction in sound power measured at the shooter's ear, about the same as thin type earmuffs. If it's a short barrel centerfire rifle, that won't be enough to replace hearing protection, only to reduce it (from big muffs to small ones or from muffs and plugs to just muffs or plugs). |
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Quoted:
Alot of these numbers people are posting are coming from different types of decibels. There are actually multiple kinds of decibels. dBV (1 volt reference) dBU (.775 reference) dBM (1 milliwatt reference) These 3 are used measure the input/outputs of amplifiers and the like. dBSPL (Sound Pressure Level) is the one you should be concerned about when it comes to sound suppressors. dBSPL uses the 20 log equation dBSPL = 20 log (Power1/Power2) On paper we should perceive an increase of 6dBSPL as twice as loud. It should be noted that this perception can vary from person to person, as some peoples ears have less hearing damage than others
Also we tend to think high end frequencies are louder than low end frequencies, even when they are played at the same dBSPL. Hence why the lower tone suppressors sound better to us than the ones with higher tones. ETA - also I would suggest not getting too caught up in small number differences. Distance from muzzle, temperature, and humidity all affect the measurement. Also it can greatly depend on the device used to measure. Was it a professional SPL meter that was properly calibrated, or was it someones iPotato in waterproof case? The test I watched on YouTube was conducted by Silencerco. It compared the Saker, Specwar, and M4-2000. They averaged out 10 rounds. |
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Quoted:
Human hearing is logarithmic and “loudness” is a term for quantifying human perception. So while an increase of 10 dB of sound pressure level (power/intensity) is 10 x increase, all else being equal (frequency distribution, timing), it will feel only 2 x as loud. From engineering perspective, achieving a 10 dB reduction is twice as hard as achieving a 5 dB reduction, but results only in a 50 % better improvement from the user perspective. Typically a big centerfire can will achieve a 26-28 dBa reduction in sound power measured at the shooter's ear, about the same as thin type earmuffs. If it's a short barrel centerfire rifle, that won't be enough to replace hearing protection, only to reduce it (from big muffs to small ones or from muffs and plugs to just muffs or plugs). Quoted:
Quoted:
First, understand that what can be measured and what is detectable by the human ear are two different things. dBa is a measurement, not a perception. Every 10 is an order of magnitude increase meaning 10 times more. A doubling is a little over 3dbs. Consider this: - Starting at 130 - 140 is 10 times louder Human hearing is logarithmic and “loudness” is a term for quantifying human perception. So while an increase of 10 dB of sound pressure level (power/intensity) is 10 x increase, all else being equal (frequency distribution, timing), it will feel only 2 x as loud. From engineering perspective, achieving a 10 dB reduction is twice as hard as achieving a 5 dB reduction, but results only in a 50 % better improvement from the user perspective. Typically a big centerfire can will achieve a 26-28 dBa reduction in sound power measured at the shooter's ear, about the same as thin type earmuffs. If it's a short barrel centerfire rifle, that won't be enough to replace hearing protection, only to reduce it (from big muffs to small ones or from muffs and plugs to just muffs or plugs). 5.56 is pretty loud to begin with. This can is going on a HD rifle. I have no illusions about "hearing safe", but right now my HD rifle sits unsuppressed. A drop in decibels is better than none. |
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Quoted: The test I watched on YouTube was conducted by Silencerco. It compared the Saker, Specwar, and M4-2000. They averaged out 10 rounds. That's a good way to test it, all on the same day, same distance, same meter. And to answer your original question, You would probably easily notice the difference between 135dB and 130dB. Now if you'll think 135dB is almost twice as loud as 130dB, that depends on your ears. SilencerCo lists their SpecwarK as about 3dB's louder than their Specwar. One of their videos lists about a 4dB difference. The only true way to know if it'll make a big difference to you is to shoot them. |
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I'd say the wieght and length reduction would outweigh the benefits of that reduction in decibels. (Silencerco lists it as even a smaller difference in dB reduction 130.2dB vs 133.6dB.) 5.56 is going to always be too loud to run suppressed without hearing protection. (For an extended period of time.)
Out of all the things that have disappointed me about my suppressor purchasing decisions, none of them to do with decibel reduction. First was buying products that were too new to the market and had not had the bugs all worked out. I have 2 suppressors that have issues, I've never had fixed since I was too lazy and didn't want to go through the hassle of shipping such an item. (Still uncertain how that has to be done, oh well.) Besides that, my other poor decisions were in getting a centerfire can that was thread mounted and has shown poor accuracy. Being able to mount to a muzzle device is so much easier. More so, because if you thread mount, then you need to remove a prior muzzle device. That is pretty difficult in the field and almost always you lose the timing and have to use a new shim or crush washer. So basically that suppressor tends to stay on one rifle indefinitely. Poor accuracy sucks. This can is a 30 cal can and has opened up the groups on all my rifles from sub moa to 1.5moa. Pretty lame when most my 30cal platforms are long range rigs. So I put it on a 300 whisper and there it will stay. My point is, that once you get in the suppressor game, you will care less about sound reduction and way more about the usability of the can. Now, if I was purchasing a new can, the first things I would research would be the affect on accuracy, how the muzzle devices worked and if the QD got gummed up or was difficult to clean. Then pick something lightweight and short, but not so short that it is above 135dB. |
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Quoted:
I'd say the wieght and length reduction would outweigh the benefits of that reduction in decibels. (Silencerco lists it as even a smaller difference in dB reduction 130.2dB vs 133.6dB.) 5.56 is going to always be too loud to run suppressed without hearing protection. (For an extended period of time.) Out of all the things that have disappointed me about my suppressor purchasing decisions, none of them to do with decibel reduction. First was buying products that were too new to the market and had not had the bugs all worked out. I have 2 suppressors that have issues, I've never had fixed since I was too lazy and didn't want to go through the hassle of shipping such an item. (Still uncertain how that has to be done, oh well.) Besides that, my other poor decisions were in getting a centerfire can that was thread mounted and has shown poor accuracy. Being able to mount to a muzzle device is so much easier. More so, because if you thread mount, then you need to remove a prior muzzle device. That is pretty difficult in the field and almost always you lose the timing and have to use a new shim or crush washer. So basically that suppressor tends to stay on one rifle indefinitely. Poor accuracy sucks. This can is a 30 cal can and has opened up the groups on all my rifles from sub moa to 1.5moa. Pretty lame when most my 30cal platforms are long range rigs. So I put it on a 300 whisper and there it will stay. My point is, that once you get in the suppressor game, you will care less about sound reduction and way more about the usability of the can. Now, if I was purchasing a new can, the first things I would research would be the affect on accuracy, how the muzzle devices worked and if the QD got gummed up or was difficult to clean. Then pick something lightweight and short, but not so short that it is above 135dB. The Specwar series is supposed to have zero to little POI shift. They also have dedicated QD muzzle devices. Choose between a 3 chamber brake, or their Tri-fecta flash hider. The muzzle device is included with the can and retail for $75 for extras. |