Posted: 3/5/2012 1:01:14 PM EDT
|
Anyone have experience with them? I'm currently getting pricing on them. Looking at 40kva load with 15 minutes of runtime. Input would be 480V 3ph with 208/120v 3ph output.
Currently working with APC on their Symmetra PX40 line. It will take 3 cabinets - PDU (input, output, transformers, bypass), UPS (inverters, management systems), and battery cabinet. Not sure what I should been looking to pay for all of this. Anyone else I should be looking at? Liebert seems to have good ones as well but I'm sure they are priced more than APC. I will say the APC rep has been terrific at answering some of my technical questions quickly. -Foxxz |
|
I'll second the warning about the larger APC UPSs and batteries. Once you get into the Symmetra level, you can't just replace bad batteries with cheaper, but non-OEM batteries like you can with SmartUPS. The Symmetra uses battery trays that contain the same batteries as the ones used in the SmartUPS. The trays can easily be hot swapped in and out, and if you really know what you're doing you can even take the tray apart and replace the batteries. HOWEVER, the trays contain some kind of special EPROM chip that knows when the batteries go bad. Even if you know enough to take the tray apart and replace the bad batteries yourself, once you put that tray back in the UPS won't recognize new batteries. From what I understand, APC are the only ones that can reset that chip, but they usually won't. Its a guaranteed way for them to make sure you have to buy the more expensive APC OEM batteries/tray assembly. For what its worth I had two trays go bad within a 2 year period after the standard warranty went out, and they weren’t cheap. I'm not really knocking APC for this, I can kind of see it from their side, but just FYI.
Also I've never used their larger stuff but you may want to look into a company called Eaton. I didn't find out about them until recently, but they've been around for a while. Just don't seem to be as well known as the others. |
|
If you're in the 40kVa range.. you might want to look at several options.
Maybe look at flywheel UPS and a generator array depending on your needs. Flywheel UPS won't have the same heat load on the room as a set of batteries will. Batteries on a UPS will mean you're replacing lots of expensive gear every few run deep-run cycles. Check out www.uptimeinstitute.com. I've seen the PX40. They are fine unit. You're already running 3Ph which is smart for a data center. Is the cooling system on the UPS as well? If not, you may look at decreasing your run time as you're generating heat pretty quickly with a load like that. -Luke |
|
I wouldn't worry too much about not being able to replace the good APC batteries with Chinese junk. The owner of the last company I worked for bought Chinese batteries to replace the ones in our biggest APC UPS. They didn't even last a year. I spent far more money in labor finding and replacing bad batteries and cleaning up after leaks than we saved.z
|
|
At all of my Data centers up here we are runnign Liebert CRAC's for CC and then runnign APC (Now Schnieder Electric) for UPS purposes so far the remote console system has no trouble interfacing with either but changing the batteries in the cabinet sucks since each cabinet has over 30 of those pricks and they are like 60lb each cartridge.
Also make sure whoever is in charge of maintenece and confirmation of uptime does a true pull the plug test twice a year. We found that after year 3 our runtime capacity was down to only approx 40% of original rated capacity, no a big deal for my primary site as we have dual cat diese generators that at full draw from the site are only being tasked with 45% of their rated capacity and have the lights back on in just under 3 minutes. However at a Cirtical site I support they have 3 Turbine Dieseal Generators that are interlinked and as such if all 3 dont go into phase within a specified time frame the whole system shuts down for 90 minutes and can not be manually restarted thus the customer was forced to install an independant diesal generator just to support the NER and Security systems..... |
| I like the Liebert brand. The service is top notch. Get a bigger unit so you can add later. Figure on replacing battery string every 2-3 years for budget. Test it every month, as in cut the normal and emergency power to it, and see it work. Only way to REALLY test it. |
|
Unfortunately a generator is out of the question. It was already put forth and was taken off the table as the building management would now allow us to locate the generator on the grounds. They would only allow it to sit on the roof of the 6 story building which made fuel delivery cost prohibitive. Not to mention there is liability if there is a diesel spill on the roof. It will destroy the roof membrane.
The UPS is sized appropriately for the AC capacity. Unfortunately if the power blinks out we'll have no AC. It takes about 1 minute for the AC to cycle after a power loss. The equipment will wait 1-5 minutes to determine if there is an actual power outage and not just an off-on deal. Afterwards it will have enough time to perform a graceful shutdown. Its going to get warm in the meantime. Theres nothing that can be done but to bring it all down as quickly as possible. This is one of those remote offices that was supposed to remain small and never require equipment. But then two racks of equipment you don't know about show up in the wiring closet and your told to deal with it and also why is it so hot in there... We're adding more office space so I've got the opportunity to improve the situation at least somewhat. I appreciate the responses and that the tread has kept on topic. -Foxxz |
|
3 racks for 40kva? That seems like overkill. We've got a 60kva APC Symmetra that initially took two racks (UPS/PDU in one and batteries in a second). Due to lackluster utility power, we added an additional battery rack this year to extend our uptime. I'm surprised they want individual cabinets for the PDU and UPS. You have more 208/120v outputs than us (most of our output is 110), but that still seems a bit odd. As far as vendors, I'm a huge APC fanboy. I've worked with them for years and have never had a problem. My current facility had Liebert units when I came on board and we had substantial issues with hardware, contracting, and service. I've moved half of the datacenter to the APC unit mentioned above, and hope to move the other half in the next year or two. |
|
Try these guys, I haven't bought the big stuff from them but everything from desktop level to small rackmount has been kick ass quality and great support after the sale. I quit using APC after several software and tech support issues. http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/index.html?region=US |
|
Quoted:
Unfortunately a generator is out of the question. It was already put forth and was taken off the table as the building management would now allow us to locate the generator on the grounds. They would only allow it to sit on the roof of the 6 story building which made fuel delivery cost prohibitive. Not to mention there is liability if there is a diesel spill on the roof. It will destroy the roof membrane. -Foxxz Any chance for a natural gas powered generator, not as great as a diesel but with the siting on the roof it might work out. As for UPSs: Liebert and Eaton units are what I have. Haven't had a problem with either. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Unfortunately a generator is out of the question. It was already put forth and was taken off the table as the building management would now allow us to locate the generator on the grounds. They would only allow it to sit on the roof of the 6 story building which made fuel delivery cost prohibitive. Not to mention there is liability if there is a diesel spill on the roof. It will destroy the roof membrane. -Foxxz Any chance for a natural gas powered generator, not as great as a diesel but with the siting on the roof it might work out. As for UPSs: Liebert and Eaton units are what I have. Haven't had a problem with either. Unfortunately the ship has sailed on the generator.  I'll be fortunate to get the UPS. Looks like they are going for it though.
-Foxxz |
|
Liebert is owned by Emerson
APC by Schneider (SquareD) MGE/powerware by Eaton (Cutler Hammer) Liebert and MGE are used in most of the large data center projects I see. I don't think you can go wrong with either of them, but a lot depends on the size you are buying. Odds are they'll have multiple lines to cover the same size. I'd develop a list of things you want/need and then go shopping. Some UPS manufacturer's MGE/Powerware, I think, are offering solutions that don't need PDU's. APC has been working its way into the large datacenter market for about 5-7 years now, but I have not heard much good or bad about them. ETA:had my holding companies mixed up |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Unfortunately a generator is out of the question. It was already put forth and was taken off the table as the building management would now allow us to locate the generator on the grounds. They would only allow it to sit on the roof of the 6 story building which made fuel delivery cost prohibitive. Not to mention there is liability if there is a diesel spill on the roof. It will destroy the roof membrane. -Foxxz Any chance for a natural gas powered generator, not as great as a diesel but with the siting on the roof it might work out. As for UPSs: Liebert and Eaton units are what I have. Haven't had a problem with either. Unfortunately the ship has sailed on the generator. I'll be fortunate to get the UPS. Looks like they are going for it though.
-Foxxz Thats sucks just do yourself a favor and get all of their commitments both for and against in writing.... The first time there is an extended outage and the SHTF the suits are going to be looking for asses to chew on and let them feed on each other...... Been there done that, thankfully the guy that was the primary when the prject started at one location made sure to get EVERYTHING in writing and hten sure as shit 4 years later when I was the primary for the site because he had moved onto other opportunities they came after me about an extended site outage... I pulled out all the email archives zipped and then sent them over to management to remind of them of whose bad decisions that resulted in the downtime 
Needless to say 2 weeks later there were conference calls and survey teams etc.... And then ended up spending double what the original quote was for all the work from just 4 years prior it was priceless 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Unfortunately a generator is out of the question. It was already put forth and was taken off the table as the building management would now allow us to locate the generator on the grounds. They would only allow it to sit on the roof of the 6 story building which made fuel delivery cost prohibitive. Not to mention there is liability if there is a diesel spill on the roof. It will destroy the roof membrane. -Foxxz Any chance for a natural gas powered generator, not as great as a diesel but with the siting on the roof it might work out. As for UPSs: Liebert and Eaton units are what I have. Haven't had a problem with either. Unfortunately the ship has sailed on the generator. I'll be fortunate to get the UPS. Looks like they are going for it though.
-Foxxz Thats sucks just do yourself a favor and get all of their commitments both for and against in writing.... The first time there is an extended outage and the SHTF the suits are going to be looking for asses to chew on and let them feed on each other...... Been there done that, thankfully the guy that was the primary when the prject started at one location made sure to get EVERYTHING in writing and hten sure as shit 4 years later when I was the primary for the site because he had moved onto other opportunities they came after me about an extended site outage... I pulled out all the email archives zipped and then sent them over to management to remind of them of whose bad decisions that resulted in the downtime
Needless to say 2 weeks later there were conference calls and survey teams etc.... And then ended up spending double what the original quote was for all the work from just 4 years prior it was priceless This. Twice. APC and MGE are the ones I usually see, with some Liebert. |
|
My experience has been that management is quite keen to spend money on electrical backup (be it UPS or generator) during an outage, and perhaps up to a day after. But any later than that, and suddenly, it suddenly isn't a priority, until the next outage.
So, the idea of getting the commitment (or even better, making the purchase) as soon as they're on board is a wise move. If they won't make the purchase, just get quotes ready, and wait for the next outage. 
There's one small shop that I help out, that is in an old section of town with overhead power lines, and they have outages quite regularly, and they blow equipment because of lightning and other hits which would zip right through the line-interactive UPSs and the cheap hardware-store surge suppressors before those devices could bring about any protection. It took them a few years and a LOT of blown equipment before they would commit to buy a good, rugged power backup solution, but even they finally decided to pony up the money. Sooner or later, equipment replacement, down time, and/or data loss will convince nearly anyone that it's worth it. |