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Posted: 9/4/2015 12:20:30 PM EDT
Remember StingRays?

The controversial cell phone spying tool, known as "Stingrays" or "IMSI catchers," has been used by authorities to track criminal suspects most of the times without obtaining court orders.

But now, the Federal law agencies will have to be more transparent about their use of Stingrays to spy on cell phones. Thanks to the new policy announced Thursday by the US Department of Justice.
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However, the new policy will now require federal agents to obtain a court authorization or warrant to use these tracking devices in all but the direst circumstances.

Not just obtain warrants, but the new policy also forces federal agencies to completely destroy the collected data as soon as the criminal suspect's mobile phone is located, or, regardless, once a day.

Moreover, the agencies will have to present their annual data revealing that how many times they have used stingrays.
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Although the new federal policy is something civil liberties groups have been seeking for years, it does not apply to everyone local and state cops, who also use stingrays to track criminal suspects.

Staff Attorney at the American Civil Liberties Union, Nate Freed Wessler, called this new policy a step forward in the "right direction" as well as "a win for privacy and transparency."
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http://thehackernews.com/2015/09/cellphone-spying-tool.html
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:22:07 PM EDT
So, a lot more local boys will be getting the systems now, right?
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:22:09 PM EDT
What about my public safety?

Strangely 60 minutes here covered it and throughout Sydney and other Australian cities the same thing or similar is being used.  And they have no idea who'd operating them.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:23:01 PM EDT
I need to buy one of those for my personal use.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:24:03 PM EDT
I'm glad they've added this new process where a judge will almost unthinkingly rubber stamp a piece of paper for them. I feel better already.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:25:24 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By irishtech:
I need to buy one of those for my personal use.
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Well that's certainly against the law.  So is using a cell jammer in the middle of your 20 sq mile property.  The logic behind that I find amusing.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:25:27 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TokerM:
So, a lot more local boys will be getting the systems now, right?
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Warrant required for use in my state, by statute.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:34:57 PM EDT
It's window dressing, of course.

We will be Lernered.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:35:39 PM EDT
LOL, and they will force compliance, how?
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:37:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By OKSoda:


Well that's certainly against the law.  So is using a cell jammer in the middle of your 20 sq mile property.  The logic behind that I find amusing.
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Originally Posted By OKSoda:
Originally Posted By irishtech:
I need to buy one of those for my personal use.


Well that's certainly against the law.  So is using a cell jammer in the middle of your 20 sq mile property.  The logic behind that I find amusing.


I'll just be super secretive about using it.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:40:40 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Spade:
I'm glad they've added this new process where a judge will almost unthinkingly rubber stamp a piece of paper for them. I feel better already.
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Which Indian call center will be staffing the new online warrant courts?

I need to call my congressman and ask him to ensure that members of the disenfranchised community have access to these new jobs.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:41:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Sedona:
LOL, and they will force compliance, how?
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They will police themselves......



Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:44:33 PM EDT
WooHoo! I guess I'll be getting a slightly used Stingray...
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:06:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Fingerpicker:
It's window dressing, of course.

We will be Lernered.
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Parallel construction, bro.

Unpapered use of Stingray leads to a "fortuitous stop for an equipment violation by a local police officer."

It's easy if you are sufficiently amiable to the concept of wiping your ass with the Constitution.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:16:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By davisac:

However, the new policy will now require federal agents to obtain a court authorization or warrant to use these tracking devices in all but the direst circumstances.

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Either that or get more proficient with their parallel construction stories ...
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:20:40 PM EDT
In the past I've been part of many uses of the Stingray and it was never used without a warrant except for ONE time.

That was a fresh double homicide and by the time we were done using the Stingray the warrant had been "walked through"....but we started using before we had warrant in hand, for good reason.


But getting people riled up and thinking they are being used carte blanche sells a better story I guess.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:25:01 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:


Either that or get more proficient with their parallel construction stories ...
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Originally Posted By POLYTHENEPAM:
Originally Posted By davisac:

However, the new policy will now require federal agents to obtain a court authorization or warrant to use these tracking devices in all but the direst circumstances.





Either that or get more proficient with their parallel construction stories ...




Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:27:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2015 1:28:42 PM EDT by Kihn]



P.T. Barnum quote appropriate.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:30:50 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By RANGER_556:
In the past I've been part of many uses of the Stingray and it was never used without a warrant except for ONE time.

That was a fresh double homicide and by the time we were done using the Stingray the warrant had been "walked through"....but we started using before we had warrant in hand, for good reason.


But getting people riled up and thinking they are being used carte blanche sells a better story I guess.
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Warrant/PC isn't the only issue. The devices sweep up collect a lot more than just the target devices' data, and nobody has been particularly forthcoming about what happens to that data.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:32:08 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By RANGER_556:
In the past I've been part of many uses of the Stingray and it was never used without a warrant except for ONE time.

That was a fresh double homicide and by the time we were done using the Stingray the warrant had been "walked through"....but we started using before we had warrant in hand, for good reason.


But getting people riled up and thinking they are being used carte blanche sells a better story I guess.
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You're right, we should just always assume that all hands of government has the best intentions for us and whenever liberty has to be temporarily sacrificed its being done for our own good.

I think we should all feel bad for ever feeling to the contrary. Heck if you're wearing a belt today, we should take them off and beat ourselves with it as punishment for ever distrusting our gracious and ever loving government.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:34:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Sheddy:


You're right, we should just always assume that all hands of government has the best intentions for us and whenever liberty has to be temporarily sacrificed its being done for our own good.
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Originally Posted By Sheddy:
Originally Posted By RANGER_556:
In the past I've been part of many uses of the Stingray and it was never used without a warrant except for ONE time.

That was a fresh double homicide and by the time we were done using the Stingray the warrant had been "walked through"....but we started using before we had warrant in hand, for good reason.


But getting people riled up and thinking they are being used carte blanche sells a better story I guess.


You're right, we should just always assume that all hands of government has the best intentions for us and whenever liberty has to be temporarily sacrificed its being done for our own good.


Especially when they go to great lengths to not release ANY information about the devices or how they work, to the point of dismissing significant prosecutions if the device's use or workings would be compromised.

That tells me they have something big to hide.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:42:55 PM EDT
I have problems with the require destruction of records daily clause. Seems to me they are making it legally impossible to prove they used it against you. "we don't keep records" , why? "It's the law, pick up that can citizen, and move along nothing to see here".
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:44:11 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By williewvr:
I have problems with the require destruction of records daily clause. Seems to me they are making it legally impossible to prove they used it against you. "we don't keep records" , why? "It's the law, pick up that can citizen, and move along nothing to see here".
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Because people (rightfully) complain that they retain data from tons of non-target persons' devices.

But I see your point.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:51:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By dbrowne1:


Especially when they go to great lengths to not release ANY information about the devices or how they work, to the point of dismissing significant prosecutions if the device's use or workings would be compromised.

That tells me they have something big to hide.
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Originally Posted By dbrowne1:
Originally Posted By Sheddy:
Originally Posted By RANGER_556:
In the past I've been part of many uses of the Stingray and it was never used without a warrant except for ONE time.

That was a fresh double homicide and by the time we were done using the Stingray the warrant had been "walked through"....but we started using before we had warrant in hand, for good reason.


But getting people riled up and thinking they are being used carte blanche sells a better story I guess.


You're right, we should just always assume that all hands of government has the best intentions for us and whenever liberty has to be temporarily sacrificed its being done for our own good.


Especially when they go to great lengths to not release ANY information about the devices or how they work, to the point of dismissing significant prosecutions if the device's use or workings would be compromised.

That tells me they have something big to hide.


Or maybe because once you understand how something works you can understand how to defeat it.  Maybe, once you understand you could go "Oh, is it really that simple to beat this thing?"

Funny how things of all different sorts of nature seem like voodoo to everyone except the people in that industry. They on the other hand realize how simple something really is in fact.


Criminals are dumb for the most part. We count on that. Because the truth is, we don't catch the really smart ones.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:53:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By dbrowne1:


Because people (rightfully) complain that they retain data from tons of non-target persons' devices.

But I see your point.
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Originally Posted By dbrowne1:
Originally Posted By williewvr:
I have problems with the require destruction of records daily clause. Seems to me they are making it legally impossible to prove they used it against you. "we don't keep records" , why? "It's the law, pick up that can citizen, and move along nothing to see here".


Because people (rightfully) complain that they retain data from tons of non-target persons' devices.

But I see your point.

The other side of the coin is what if they catch something (let's say your joking with a buddy about putting you ex wives on a raft then using it for target practice, with a mortar) on you while using it to tap someone else, then use that info against you, destroy the records, and claim they didn't use it. No records mister criminal, prove we didn't notice you doing something.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 2:12:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By williewvr:
I have problems with the require destruction of records daily clause. Seems to me they are making it legally impossible to prove they used it against you. "we don't keep records" , why? "It's the law, pick up that can citizen, and move along nothing to see here".
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Whether the records are destroyed or are retained, no one will ever get access to them to use as evidence that the device was used.
That is the point of dismissing cases in the rare instances where the court orders the government to make the information available to the defendant.
That is the point of training government agents to lie to the courts about the sources of information, a/k/a "parallel construction".
That is the point of having one agent provide information to the agents who may appear in court without divulging the true source of the information, which is another tactic.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 2:21:21 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By RANGER_556:


In the past I've been part of many uses of the Stingray and it was never used without a warrant except for ONE time.



That was a fresh double homicide and by the time we were done using the Stingray the warrant had been "walked through"....but we started using before we had warrant in hand, for good reason.





But getting people riled up and thinking they are being used carte blanche sells a better story I guess.
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there were claims made that the list didn't exist either.

 
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