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Posted: 9/16/2004 9:46:11 AM EST
OK, I'm not saying cops should be expected to never make mistakes, or even that this happens too much (according to these guys, this is the first time it's happened for this department). But, there seems to be a common theme in these "wrong house" raids. You would think when cops busted down a door to find themselves in the house of a couple of elderly people, don't you think they would think maybe they made a mistake? Instead almost without fail they still throw the people to the ground, crippled old timers or not.

tennessean.com/local/archives/04/09/57692426.shtml?Element_ID=57692426

Clarksville Police Chief Mark Smith said he will offer two residents a written apology for officers' mistakenly raiding their home Friday night.

''I want to publicly apologize,'' Smith said this week during a press conference, adding that Friday's mistake was the first time in his 28 years with the department that officers had broken into the wrong home. ''There is certainly no pattern here,'' he said.

According to Smith, the police tactical team received information that a drug dealer lived at 343B Old Trenton Road, but they ended up going to the house next door that only had the letter ''B'' on the outside — which turned out to be 341B.

The residents of 341B, Teresa Guiler and James Elliott, who are in their 50s, were home watching television when the masked men stormed into the house.

Guiler, whose arm was in a sling from a previous injury, told police that they had the wrong man as they pointed a gun at her and Elliott, who is deaf and had recently received a liver transplant, she said.

Guiler went for medical help after the raid, and Elliott had planned to go to Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville yesterday to be seen by his doctors.

Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

''We (ensure) it's done safely and with minimal amount of force as possible,'' Smith said.

But Guiler and Elliott's attorney, Tommy Meeks, said what the police did is unacceptable.

''What justification can you give to kick a 54-year-old man who's down on the ground,'' Meeks said about Elliott, who is a Vietnam War veteran. ''All he saw was men in masks with rifles. He was terrified. Then to get knocked down and stomped. They picked him up like a suitcase. The Police Department said they acted in normal procedure, but that's not normal.''

Smith said the man they were actually looking for was Jeremiah Taylor, 24, who was arrested and charged Friday night with possession of Ecstasy for resale. A separate warrant was taken for a raid of his home. Taylor was booked into the Montgomery County Jail with bail set at $28,000.

Smith said the mix-up on the addresses came from the drug agents with the Major Crimes unit, who got their information from an informant. But even though the address was reportedly checked before the raid, the wrong house was still entered.

They did investigate to a ''reasonable extent,'' Smith said, adding that policies and procedures will be re-examined and the department's Professional Integrity Unit will investigate.

''You always can learn from your mistakes.''

But Meeks said that the department went too far and that the frail residents are hurting from those ''mistakes.''

''There's going to be some answers,'' said Meeks, who will wait to see what his clients' doctors say before moving forward with any possible legal action against the Police Department.

Link Posted: 9/16/2004 9:49:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By SNorman:
Cops raid wrong house



Is the dog safe?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 9:49:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 9:52:14 AM EST by WaWaTuSi]

Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

''What justification can you give to kick a 54-year-old man who's down on the ground,'' Meeks said about Elliott, who is a Vietnam War veteran. ''All he saw was men in masks with rifles. He was terrified. Then to get knocked down and stomped. They picked him up like a suitcase. The Police Department said they acted in normal procedure, but that's not normal.




I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?

Link Posted: 9/16/2004 9:50:23 AM EST
Without reading the post, Let me guess... war on drugs ?

well what do you know.

Link Posted: 9/16/2004 9:54:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By WaWaTuSi:

Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.



I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?




Not if they failed to identify themselves as police officers, AND you killed all of them...if you left even one alive, he would testify under oath that they identified themselves as police officers, even if they had not, and you'd fry...so be sure to kill them all if you start shooting. Remember, the first JBT is very expensive, but all the rest are free...
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 9:55:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

Originally Posted By WaWaTuSi:

Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.



I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?




Not if they failed to identify themselves as police officers, AND you killed all of them...if you left even one alive, he would testify under oath that they identified themselves as police officers, even if they had not, and you'd fry...so be sure to kill them all if you start shooting. Remember, the first JBT is very expensive, but all the rest are free...





But if I read correctly the lady was deaf.....

Link Posted: 9/16/2004 9:57:24 AM EST
Hopefully the older couple will get a real good lawyer and be set to retire once he gets done sueing the police department. If the cops want to play dress up and stomp people, they at least need to be sure they are breaking down the door on the correct house. A written appology is like a slap in the face after what they did to this couple.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 9:59:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 10:02:34 AM EST by Alien]

Originally Posted By WaWaTuSi:

Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

''What justification can you give to kick a 54-year-old man who's down on the ground,'' Meeks said about Elliott, who is a Vietnam War veteran. ''All he saw was men in masks with rifles. He was terrified. Then to get knocked down and stomped. They picked him up like a suitcase. The Police Department said they acted in normal procedure, but that's not normal.




I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?




Or what happens when they kill you for wielding a weapon and having it pointed at them when you are startled and think you're experiencing a home invasion? I keep my AR15 accessible while I'm sleeping. You'd better believe that if I hear my door being busted down or my windows breaking I'm going to assume they're criminals and I'm grabbing that my rifle and prepared to pull that trigger!
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 9:59:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By WaWaTuSi:

But if I read correctly the lady was deaf.....




Aye, there's a sticky wicket...
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:00:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By SWIRE:
Hopefully the older couple will get a real good lawyer and be set to retire once he gets done sueing the police department. If the cops want to play dress up and stomp people, they at least need to be sure they are breaking down the door on the correct house. A written appology is like a slap in the face after what they did to this couple.



Yup...CHA-CHING!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:01:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 10:05:32 AM EST by Lightning_P38]
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:01:40 AM EST
I would really like to see statistics on this sort of outrage. Around the country, how many "wrong" houses or apartments are burst into by our fellow citizens charged with upholding the law. I'm also pretty sure they really don't give a crap that a couple of elderly people were treated in that manner. The cops were only serving and protecting, right? Geez!

Also, Ecstasy?! Gimme a break. The local news will always run some bleeding heart story about how bad ecstasy is and how little 15 yr old Jenny died from an ecstasy overdose, but get real.

The war on drugs is ineffective, easily as dangerous as the drugs themselves and an enormous waste of resources.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:01:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By WaWaTuSi:
I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?



More than likely you'd be provided a toe tag by the county coroner
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:04:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By WaWaTuSi:

Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

''What justification can you give to kick a 54-year-old man who's down on the ground,'' Meeks said about Elliott, who is a Vietnam War veteran. ''All he saw was men in masks with rifles. He was terrified. Then to get knocked down and stomped. They picked him up like a suitcase. The Police Department said they acted in normal procedure, but that's not normal.




I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?




NO.

You would be dead and your name would be smeared by the PD.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:07:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 10:08:04 AM EST by Lightning_P38]
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:09:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:24:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 10:25:36 AM EST by AZ_Hi_Desert]
Um.. no comment, lest I raise the ire of the board JBTs, who will then initiate a traffic stop, arrest me for 'obstruction' after Tasering me into a stupor, impound my car, 'find' contraband in their 'inventory search' and get sentenced to life in prison.Edited to add: Oh, and shoot my dogs just because they can.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:27:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By osprey21:
Without reading the post, Let me guess... war on drugs ?

well what do you know.




+1
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 10:36:19 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:36:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:

Originally Posted By AZ_Hi_Desert:
Um.. no comment, lest I raise the ire of the board JBTs, who will then initiate a traffic stop, arrest me for 'obstruction' after Tasering me into a stupor, impound my car, 'find' contraband in their 'inventory search' and get sentenced to life in prison.

Edited to add: Oh, and shoot my dogs just because they can.



You got it wrong, they shoot dogs for fun, They stick broom handles up your ass because they can.


Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:40:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 12:42:17 PM EST by MrClean4Hire]
Damn it must be a Tennessee thing. We had that happen several years ago where they got the wrong house and shot an 80 yo man and killed him. Of course we all know the story of them shooting the dog on camera that belonged to a couple who were just traveling through.


Ohhh the widow of that shooting got millions and is now doing lawyer commercials saying how much this certain lawyer got her.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:44:33 PM EST
Two old cripples. Another casualty of the war on drugs.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:50:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:51:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By WaWaTuSi:

Smith said that although he feels terrible about the raid, he insists that the officers never used excessive force. But because Elliott resisted, officers had to control him by ''bringing him down,'' he said.

''What justification can you give to kick a 54-year-old man who's down on the ground,'' Meeks said about Elliott, who is a Vietnam War veteran. ''All he saw was men in masks with rifles. He was terrified. Then to get knocked down and stomped. They picked him up like a suitcase. The Police Department said they acted in normal procedure, but that's not normal.




I am just curious.... If police dressed up as masked men break into your house (by mistake) and you happen to shoot these armed intruders dead. Would you be charged?




That actually happened. Ten or fifteen years ago in the Ocala/Gainesville area. In the ensuing gun battle the home owner was seriously wounded and one officer died. The home owner was charged and tried but aquitted.

If you shoot a cop who is acting in the line of duty you can bet your ass they're going to charge you with murder. They cannot just say they screwed up and got one of their own killed. Thank goodness for jury trials.

Personally, I think that no-knock searches should be extremely rare and done only to stop a violent crime in progess and never just to prevent evidence from being flushed.

Regards,
Mild Bill

PS Hey, wouldn't it be neat if the drug squad knocked on a whole bunch of doors, got back in their van and returned to the station. The thunder of a hundred toilets flushing.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:52:38 PM EST
Bad cop...no donut...
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:59:02 PM EST
I hope that the poor folks sue the JBTs asses off, win and live happily ever after.

Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:03:02 PM EST
There is NO excuse for raiding the wrong house...NONE... NADA.... if the dept can't do good recon with intel, they have no fucking business raiding anything but a whore house.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:06:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 1:16:57 PM EST by AR15fan]
Wow! This may be the first actual wrong house raid I have read about. usually, its the right house (address) but based on faulty intel or a typo on the warrant. This one was an actual verified failure to go to the address listed on the warrant.

The officer who lead the team to the wrong house should be fired. Although he would probubly sue under the ADA, claiming dislexia or something and get his job back.

Additionally his supervisor should be fired, Those that recruited and trained him should be removed from those positions of responsibility too.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:06:35 PM EST
This is another example of why the best "home defense weapon" is a GOOD dog!

People will sleep thru anything. How many times were you sitting on the couch and said "Did you hear something???".

A good dog will do his/her job and alert you that it's time to GO!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:06:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 1:11:11 PM EST by Garand_Shooter]

Originally Posted By POWER03:
I would really like to see statistics on this sort of outrage. Around the country, how many "wrong" houses or apartments are burst into by our fellow citizens charged with upholding the law. I'm also pretty sure they really don't give a crap that a couple of elderly people were treated in that manner. The cops were only serving and protecting, right? Geez!



I am sure they LEO's here will show up repeating the same lines:

Its a rare occurance (its not, but I will get to that in a minute)

My departments so good we would never do this (yet it happens from the smallest towns to NYC)

It's no big deal.

Do a google serach for "swat mistake" "swat error" "swat wrong" and you will find plenty of examples... enough to scare you.

Many where innocent homeowners die trying to defend themselves from what they percieve is a home invasion. Very few times is anyone held accountable.

In Philly a retired minister dies when cops raid the wrong house, what limited punishment that is given to those responsible is later overturned and all back pay and promotions awarded.

In MO a SWAT team is so negligent they raid the mayors house...... do you want those kinds of morons carrying guns?

In CA a team raids a kids birthday party...ooops wrong home. Do you want your kids at a party where a dozen or so cops hopped up on adrenaline rush in pointing weapons at them?

Its a problem, bigger than most cops are willing to admit, and therefore one they usually don't put any effort iinto avoiding. And many incidents don't even get reported.... I know because my Fiance was almost the victim of one, the raided an apartment in the building she lived in (only 2 units in the building) because they were too incompetent to even get the right building. Thats why I am so passionate about the issue, if we could search back more than 6 months you would find some extensive posts by me on the issue.

What will it take? Untill individual officers are held financially and civilly responsible for their negligence, I doubt it will. As the system stands now, other than maybe some ribbing by thier peers they don't get held responsible, so whats the incentive to fix the problem.

I'd put $100 on the fact that when all is said and done here everyone responsible for assaulting this woman will still have a job with that agency.



Edited cause typing with a bandaged finger on a laptop sucks.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:07:21 PM EST
no knock warrants are just an invitation to disaster in general

people some times make mistakes, but come on, putting a frail old couple on their face?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:08:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By ar50troll:
Bad cop...no donut...




That's what my wife says every time she sees a cop.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:08:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 1:08:30 PM EST by ar50troll]

Originally Posted By nationwide:
This is another example of why the best "home defense weapon" is a GOOD dog!

People will sleep thru anything. How many times were you sitting on the couch and said "Did you hear something???".

A good dog will do his/her job and alert you that it's time to GO!!!!!!!



Plus 1 A good dog goes a long ways
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:09:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Wow! This may be the first actual wrong house raid i have read about. usually, its the right house (address) but based on faulty intel or a typo on the warrant. this one was an actual failure to go to the adress listed on the warrant.

The officer who lead the team to the wrong house should be fired. Although he would probubly sue under the ADA, claiming dislexia or something and get his job back.




Lemme git this right... a cop in last week shoots a hostage whilst taking 3 pot shots at the BG, I say he should be fired and I get chastized (BY OTHER MEMBERS, NOT YOU) for saying his action was akin to medical malpractice and should be fired.

However, nobody even got shot here and yer callin for his badge???

I am a very, very confused little boy. Someone come get my guns so I don't hurt anyone by accident.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:09:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 1:10:32 PM EST by tcsd1236]

Originally Posted By SNorman:
You would think when cops busted down a door to find themselves in the house of a couple of elderly people, don't you think they would think maybe they made a mistake? Instead almost without fail they still throw the people to the ground, crippled old timers or not.



Since when is 54 "elderly"?


According to Smith, the police tactical team received information that a drug dealer lived at 343B Old Trenton Road, but they ended up going to the house next door that only had the letter ''B'' on the outside — which turned out to be 341B.


As I have said countless times, this is the problem we encounter daily; people simply do not properly mark their residences.


''What justification can you give to kick a 54-year-old man who's down on the ground,'' Meeks said about Elliott, who is a Vietnam War veteran. ''All he saw was men in masks with rifles. He was terrified. Then to get knocked down and stomped. They picked him up like a suitcase. The Police Department said they acted in normal procedure, but that's not normal.''


Sensationalistic attornet talk. As I said, is a 54 year old NOT possibly being a threat? The rest simply sounds like standard handcuffing technique made sensationalized by the lawyer trying to earn his paycheck

And as usual the usual bashers are out in force.

Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:12:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By SNorman:
You would think when cops busted down a door to find themselves in the house of a couple of elderly people, don't you think they would think maybe they made a mistake? Instead almost without fail they still throw the people to the ground, crippled old timers or not.



Since when is 54 "elderly"?


According to Smith, the police tactical team received information that a drug dealer lived at 343B Old Trenton Road, but they ended up going to the house next door that only had the letter ''B'' on the outside — which turned out to be 341B.


As I have said countless times, this is the problem we encounter daily; people simply do not properly mark their residences. It is therefore not the fault of our loutish, incompetent selves when we do physical violence to the homes and property of unoffending citizens.


''What justification can you give to kick a 54-year-old man who's down on the ground,'' Meeks said about Elliott, who is a Vietnam War veteran. ''All he saw was men in masks with rifles. He was terrified. Then to get knocked down and stomped. They picked him up like a suitcase. The Police Department said they acted in normal procedure, but that's not normal.''


Sensationalistic attornet talk. As I said, is a 54 year old NOT possibly being a threat? The rest simply sounds like standard handcuffing technique made sensationalized by the lawyer trying to earn his paycheck

And as usual the usual bashers are out in force.




The threat was presented by the armed men entering the wrong home by force.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:13:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:14:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
This apparently happens so often...



Less often than you have been lead to believe.

In is deceptive to lump all "wrong house" incidents into one catagory. There is a world of difference between actually going to an address other than listed on the warrant, as in this horrible case. Versus other "wrong house" raids when the cops went to the correct address, but the suspect wasnt home, only gets his mail there, just moved, was never there, ect. It's deceptive, at best, to lump them all into the same catagory, and creates the illusion that the cops regularly go to the wrong address.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:14:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Originally Posted By SNorman:
You would think when cops busted down a door to find themselves in the house of a couple of elderly people, don't you think they would think maybe they made a mistake? Instead almost without fail they still throw the people to the ground, crippled old timers or not.



Since when is 54 "elderly"?



OK you're right, not quite elderly but they are elegible to live in the 50+ only community near me OK so let's put it this way, how many times do you bust in a door looking for drugs and find two perps in their mid 50s?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:16:34 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:16:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 1:24:54 PM EST by Noname]
OK stupid question time-------


If the drug dealer is so dangerous as to require a night time "tactical team" raid why in Gods name is bail only $28,000? All this drama and the dude bails for $2800??? wow...


"Smith said the man they were actually looking for was Jeremiah Taylor, 24, who was arrested and charged Friday night with possession of Ecstasy for resale. A separate warrant was taken for a raid of his home. Taylor was booked into the Montgomery County Jail with bail set at $28,000."
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:17:11 PM EST
The problem, tcsd1236, is that it's home invasion. Sure, cops can call it a "raid", but it's still home invasion. The fact that the victims of the home invasion were frail (perhaps not elderly, but certainly not in condition to fight back) just drives home the point. I agree that unless there is iminent danger to someone's life, house raids should be a no-no.

Oh, and guess what. A gang can yell, "police!" too. So who cares if they "identified" themselves or not. Someone barges into my house with guns and a mask on, he/she deserves to be shot dead.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:17:56 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:19:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 1:21:06 PM EST by Garand_Shooter]
TCSD1236, I've said it before time and again, I'f I can drop what I am doing at home, grab my jump bag, and either go directly to the scene or stop just long enough at the station to get the squad truck, and never in hundreds of responses go to the wrong door, despite many poorly or not marked, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A TEAM WHO HAS HAD PREP TIME TO GET IT WRONG. My response times average 6-7 minutes from dispatch to on scene, while this team had hours to assemple and prep at a minimum.

I guess expecting those paid to do a job to do it at least as well as this hillbilly volunteer fighter makes me a basher in your eyes, however.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:19:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By nationwide:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Wow! This may be the first actual wrong house raid i have read about. usually, its the right house (address) but based on faulty intel or a typo on the warrant. this one was an actual failure to go to the adress listed on the warrant.

The officer who lead the team to the wrong house should be fired. Although he would probubly sue under the ADA, claiming dislexia or something and get his job back.




Lemme git this right... a cop in last week shoots a hostage whilst taking 3 pot shots at the BG, I say he should be fired and I get chastized (BY OTHER MEMBERS, NOT YOU) for saying his action was akin to medical malpractice and should be fired.

However, nobody even got shot here and yer callin for his badge???



I was one of the biggest critics of the hostage negotiators failed attempt at playing designated marksman. I also believe this case is a glorious fuck up.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:21:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 1:21:31 PM EST by tcsd1236]

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
TCSD1236, I've said it before time and again, I'f I can drop what I am doing at home, grab my jump bag, and either go directly to the scene or stop just long enough at the station to get the squad truck, and never in hundreds of responses go to the wrong door, despite many poorly or not marked, THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A TEAM WHO HAS HAD PREP TIME TO GET IT WRONG. My response times average 6-7 minutes from dispatch to on scene, while this team had hours to assemple and prep at a minimum.

I guess expecting those paid to do a job to do it at least as well as the hillbilly volunteer fighter makes me a basher in your eyes, however.




And I will say it again: the manner and thoroughness in which YOUR area is marked is unique. You keep ignoring that.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:22:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By Noname:
OK stupid question time-------


If the drug dealer is so dangerous as to require a night time "tactical team" raid why in Gods name is bail only $28,000?



Everyone is entitled to bail. There are constitutional protections against punitive bail amounts.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:23:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Noname:
OK stupid question time-------


If the drug dealer is so dangerous as to require a night time "tactical team" raid why in Gods name is bail only $28,000? All this drama and the dude bails for $2800??? wow...





Very easy; bail cannot be excessive. A 28K bail is pretty steep for most people and most charges. About the only time you'll see anything higher than that around here is a murder charge.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:24:45 PM EST
noooooooooooooo I am shocked
wait, no I'm not
nothing to see here
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:24:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
The problem, tcsd1236, is that it's home invasion. Sure, cops can call it a "raid", but it's still home invasion.


Uh, no, it's not. But we will have to disagree.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:24:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

Since when is 54 "elderly"?




Since AARP, to be precise
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