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Posted: 8/8/2005 10:49:48 AM EDT
[#1]
Unbelieveable. I'm highly doubtful the trooper has ever attended an officer survival class.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 10:53:54 AM EDT
[#2]
Wasn't too bright was he. I can't believe he didn't commit. As in once he botched the gun grab, go for his and start unloading on the guy. You said it...unbelieveable 
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Posted: 8/8/2005 10:55:05 AM EDT
[#3]
tag for home view
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Posted: 8/8/2005 10:57:49 AM EDT
[#4]
Whoa.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 10:58:48 AM EDT
[#5]
bad sitution
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:01:36 AM EDT
[#6]
Day-um. What a shitty spot to be in.
Ain't gonna Monday...afternoon...quarterback this one. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:05:49 AM EDT
[#7]
I don't think there is much you can say about this. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:08:16 AM EDT
[#8]
that would have been a bad place to be....
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:19:59 AM EDT
[#9]
Might have been able to draw down and shoot the BG if he didn't put the ticket book into his weapon hand while a gun was pointed at him. At least he stayed pretty calm on the outside.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:28:39 AM EDT
[#10]
I bet he'll go to one now. His takeaway move seemed a bit half-hearted. Should he have gone for his gun as soon as he saw the door open back up? Wait a few minutes for plate results before heading to the car? How long can that take? Let his backup get in position first? Don't know a lot about this, but I think I'd make a move or run and take my chances rather than be taken (RIP) hostage. And what about the other trooper? Should he have backed off? Hey, is this a training video? <<<ETA: To be followed by "how TO?" |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:32:40 AM EDT
[#11]
Won't play for me. Is this the New Mexico trooper video?
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:39:46 AM EDT
[#12]
Wow! That was scary.
Hats off to all you troopers out there who have to deal with this on a daily basis! 
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Posted: 8/8/2005 11:54:01 AM EDT
[#13]
tag
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Posted: 8/8/2005 12:26:44 PM EDT
[#14]
I think I would have backed off. I mean, what are you gonna do? a.) Take a shot -  b.) Convince the guy to drop the weapon - you would probably know fairly quickly if this was going to succeed or not c.)escalate the situation with your presence I think these are the only three outcomes his added presence could produce. His buddy obviously wasn't comfortable with plan (a) - very understandable He tried plan (b) saw that it was develpoing into a (c) "type situation", and retreated. I think I would have done the exact same thing his buddy did. Although if I can add one point - After my retreat, I would have SOOOOO been going for my rifle. 
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Posted: 8/8/2005 12:33:06 PM EDT
[#15]
+1 |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 12:41:33 PM EDT
[#16]
tag
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Posted: 8/8/2005 12:42:31 PM EDT
[#17]
He needs to f--ing read "Lines and Shadows."
He is lucky to be alive. Very lucky. He should have drawn and fired. Statistically, officers are going to take a hit in most shootouts, anyhow. We usually survive to win. The moment that s--tbag pointed a weapon at him, his life was a roll of the dice away from ending, anyhow. He should have drawn and fired. And what is up with the back-up officer? Close the gap and take the shot. No talking, no negotiating, just take the shot. There is no alternative, and letting hostage-taker go mobile almost guarantees that your hostage(s) are going to wind up dead. Close and shoot. I smell a new training scenario coming up for the next sims training... |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:04:57 PM EDT
[#18]
Holy cow...I'll say BAMA is right on this one.
Ben |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:06:33 PM EDT
[#19]
I'm sure if he thought he could he would have. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:14:59 PM EDT
[#20]
That very scenario is/should be a standard training for every road cop. There are well recognized drills for that exact conforntation. This was a common drill where I worked and it is very effective. The cop had several opportunities to handle the situation and did not do it. I'm actually shocked. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:18:27 PM EDT
[#21]
It's just an example of someone not choosing to be agressive enough soon enough. I'm glad it all worked out in the end.
What was the "girls going hysterical" bit? Did it sound to you like they were trying to warn the guy? |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:18:51 PM EDT
[#22]
I'm not a police officer, and I hate Monday-morning QB's, but IMO that was the worst possible way he could have reacted. I'm going to show this one to my Advisor, and see what he would have done in that scenario.
Very, very scary, like the Trooper Coates video. And, if my backup took off like that while a scumbag had a gun to my head, you can be sure there'd be a giant-size ass whoopin once it was all over. What good is backup when they're headed the other way? I'd love to run this one past my Explorers and see how they react... we do have a meeting coming up next week... |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:39:48 PM EDT
[#23]
We run the officer hostage scenario frequently, and EVERYONE knows what the standard for passing that one is. I am thinking more about the drawing and firing when they already have a weapon pointed at you. Theoretically, you have pretty good chance, as action beats reaction. If they never get it in training, then it is "new" if they ever have to do it in real life. That is whay we should do this in training... |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:42:37 PM EDT
[#24]
I'm not going to post the technique the officer needed to do. But he had what he needed in order to gain the upper hand and did not use it. He actually had several opportunities. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:44:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Actually it looked like he attempted a classic "approached from the rear" type of disarm - but the kid was too fast for him. He kept telling the kid "OK, OK..." and asking him to take his finger off of the trigger - which was good.
Agree about not getting into the car and being taken away to the secondary crime scene - that's just suicidal. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:45:49 PM EDT
[#26]
That is just it. Officer survival isn't just some training or a few special tactics. It is an ATTITUDE. He needed to KNOW at his core that he was going to put the other guy down and walk away in one piece, and that the other could shoot him, and that he was still going to win, and survive. He needed to think that he could, and then do it. If he had the attitude that he could not draw and fire and beat someone holding a pistol on him, then he had already lost the fight. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 1:49:05 PM EDT
[#27]
Bad situation that suprisingly didnt end in a death. I wonder what happened to that trooper after it was all said and done?
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Posted: 8/8/2005 2:08:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Lucky cop, glad he made it ok.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 2:38:41 PM EDT
[#29]
+2 |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 2:46:05 PM EDT
[#30]
You would be surprised at the number of LEO's who do not have that attitude. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 2:56:48 PM EDT
[#31]
No I wouldn't. Officer Survival classes are a GREAT help. I have seen complacent folks come back born again hard. Agency training is another. If the "extreme" situations are something that are familiar at some level to officers, then when the S hits the F on the streets, they will at least have SOME level of mental preparedness. When a really bad situation is going down, and you find yourself thinking "this is easier than training," then your agency suceeded. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 3:19:28 PM EDT
[#32]
Does the lack of this attitude go with a lack of interest in their firearms, or in shooting?
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Posted: 8/8/2005 3:28:43 PM EDT
[#33]
I think a lot has to do with a lack of intrest in firearms, shooting and basic survival skills. But a fair number of LEO's look at as a JOB and a job only. I was very surprised in the video how the cop handled the whole deal. The driver being out of the vehicle before the stop was a major clue that something is not right. The drivers actions would have had me on my toes. This cop did not show any signs of concern. This video would make a great training aid for LEO's. So many mistakes were made by the trooper I was shocked. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 4:14:34 PM EDT
[#34]
The fact that that officer got out of his vehicle with a clip board in his gun hand says a lot. I would not have tried to draw on a gun pointed right at me. Nobody is that fast. Once that guy was dangling the gun at his side, that was an even break and the thug is not wearing a vest. A lot of things about this one. I bet that officer doesn't get caught short anytime soon again.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 4:31:51 PM EDT
[#35]
The officer exercised the same level of caution most people mistakenly believe an officer should use. How many times I have you read threads with people complaining about the officer using light, cover, and other tactical advantages whn he contacted them?
This is what happens when you assume the driver is a soccor mom. But if you assume every driver is a parolee you get complaints. Since one will get you killed and the other will only get you complaints guess which is the better course of action. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 4:35:22 PM EDT
[#36]
Actually everybody with even basic training can be that fast. Action beats reaction, every time. The first person who decides to shoot is going to get the first shot off, it does not matter if the guns are in the holster or out of the holster. Most trained people can draw and shoot faster than the human mind can recognize that action and problem solve the appropriate response. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 4:47:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Actually the ticket book was in his off hand. He did not swap over till way into the incident. During that time the officer had several opportunities to end this deal. He had the tools in his possesion to end this conflict. This officer IMO was operating in Condition White. Not even yellow. He was oblivious to what was going on. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 4:47:54 PM EDT
[#38]
Amen. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 4:56:58 PM EDT
[#39]
I agree that he was not on alert, but did anyone ever think that maybe the officer didnt want to shoot the kid? He tried for the gun pretty much ignoring his own gun. He seemed awful cool.
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Posted: 8/8/2005 5:26:09 PM EDT
[#40]
I don't know what this officers experience level is or why he let his guard down. I'm not going to Monday morning quarterback him either. However, regarding the "lack of attitude" I have a little input. From my own experience - in November it will be 16 years on PATROL - It's not a lack of interest in firearms or in shooting. It's, at least in my case burn out. I've observed times that I found myself in a physical confrontation thinking, "Oh not this shit again". I shouldn't have been thinking that, I should have been thinking what I'm going to be doing two moves from now. That's when I knew I hit a very bad mental attitude regarding my job, my health/well being and my family. It was concern of mine when I would get like this. It's inevitable that if one goes into situations day after day you get burned out and start to let your guard down. It's easy to do. I'm not proud to admit it but it's happened to me. It's dangerous, it's what gets cops hurt or worse killed. I've been lucky, I was never seriously injured. Things I've done to prevent getting into that bad frame of mind? At least once a year I read the Street Survival books, I try to go to some kind of firearms training school every other year, and I'm an active FTO and firearms instructor with our department. Many fellow officers look at being a FTO as a pain. I don't. I get as much out of it as the new guy. It's refreshing working with someone that has the drive to do the job and has the academy films fresh in his head, you know the "shoot don't shoot" ones!  He gets knowledge, I get a good refresher on mindset and attitude. I don't think it's necessarily a lack of interest in firearms or shooting. I think it's not keeping human nature in check. You can't get complacent, you can't let your guard down. Human nature wants you to believe that everything will be ok and you've done things like this before and they turned out ok. It's that attitude that will make your wife a widow. I hope the officer in this video had a wake up call and has since changed his tactics. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 5:28:11 PM EDT
[#41]
A big +1!! |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 5:52:18 PM EDT
[#42]
Want doesn't enter into the equation. At this point, it his DUTY to stop the threat. Period. Guess what? If Junior had turned and started to run away, the trooper had the authority, duty and responsibility to shoot Mr. Now-A-Fleeing Felon in the back. Once someone has engaged in conduct this far beyond the pale, they are an immediate threat to EVERYONE else, and must be stopped, immediately. You pay the Police to do exactly that. If he wasn't up to the task of stopping the threat, then he shouldn't be strapping the gear on every day. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:16:25 PM EDT
[#43]
I pondered the thought. But I don't know. Did you hear him beg for his life, talk about his family? Maybe he can't deal with the prospect of shooting someone. If so, he needs to get into another line of work. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:19:57 PM EDT
[#44]
Normally in those shows, don't they do follow up interviews in uniform - you know, to show they're proud to have survived and continue serving? He's sitting in a lawn chair in his back yard in a t-shirt. My guess is this incident spooked him and he retired/quit. Let's hope he doesn't have another lethal force encounter in real life, because he won't have back up next time. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 7:50:51 PM EDT
[#45]
NOBODY driving by had a gun, looked at the scene, and thought that a cop with his hands in the air was a bad thing?
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Posted: 8/8/2005 7:59:19 PM EDT
[#46]
There are a couple issues at work there. First, even in shall issue states on a small percentage of the eligible population carries, and even less of them carry every day. More disturbing is that a vocal segment of the gun culture identifies more with the suspects than the police. The tin foil hat crowd is among the most likely to carry every day but the least likely to risk their own ass to save a cop who their paranoia makes them hate. By tin foil hat crowd I am refering to the vocal minority like the Freemen who hacve murdered cops over seatbelt tickets and zoning disputes, and people tlike the "patriot" that ambushed the Cop at the gas pumps in prostest of Cali gun laws. |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 8:42:52 PM EDT
[#47]
Bet if there had been a dog in the car the cop would have been able to do a perfect Mozambique on it.
           
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Posted: 8/8/2005 8:56:26 PM EDT
[#48]
Actually, it might have been the smartest thing he did. I've heard that once you're taken hostage, the best way of making sure that you stay alive is to 'humanise' yourself. Make yourself not just a badge or uniform or whatever, but to turn yourself into a person with a name, a life, and people who care about you and who you care about. May not have an effect on the most callous or die-hard person, but will have an effect on the majority of people who spontaneously take a hostage. Also, if I were the second copper, I'd have backed off as well. I've got a radio, why not use it so that when the final confrontation comes, the numbers are more in his favour? NTM |
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Posted: 8/8/2005 8:59:00 PM EDT
[#49]
sooo tagged!
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Posted: 8/8/2005 9:02:45 PM EDT
[#50]
I'm curious about this, would you recommend civilians stopping and drawing their weapon in a situation like that? I would think when back-up arrived it wouldn't be good for the passerby? |
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