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Posted: 8/8/2005 10:42:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 10:54:17 AM EDT by distributor_of_pain]
I'm taking a big chance on this one.
Hope it's not a dupe.


www.m90.org/view_image.php?image_id=6919



Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:49:48 AM EDT
Unbelieveable. I'm highly doubtful the trooper has ever attended an officer survival class.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:53:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Unbelieveable. I'm highly doubtful the trooper has ever attended an officer survival class.



Wasn't too bright was he.

I can't believe he didn't commit. As in once he botched the gun grab, go for his and start unloading on the guy.
You said it...unbelieveable
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:55:05 AM EDT
tag for home view
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:57:49 AM EDT
Whoa.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:58:48 AM EDT
bad sitution
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:01:36 AM EDT
Day-um. What a shitty spot to be in.

Ain't gonna Monday...afternoon...quarterback this one.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:05:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mauser101:
Day-um. What a shitty spot to be in.

Ain't gonna Monday...afternoon...quarterback this one.



I don't think there is much you can say about this.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:08:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:19:59 AM EDT
Might have been able to draw down and shoot the BG if he didn't put the ticket book into his weapon hand while a gun was pointed at him. At least he stayed pretty calm on the outside.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:28:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 2:07:34 PM EDT by prk]

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Unbelieveable. I'm highly doubtful the trooper has ever attended an officer survival class.




I bet he'll go to one now.

His takeaway move seemed a bit half-hearted.

Should he have gone for his gun as soon as he saw the door open back up?

Wait a few minutes for plate results before heading to the car? How long can that take?

Let his backup get in position first?

Don't know a lot about this, but I think I'd make a move or run and take my chances rather than be taken (RIP) hostage.

And what about the other trooper? Should he have backed off?

Hey, is this a training video? <<<ETA: To be followed by "how TO?"
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:32:40 AM EDT
Won't play for me. Is this the New Mexico trooper video?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:39:46 AM EDT
Wow! That was scary.


Hats off to all you troopers out there who have to deal with this on a daily basis!



Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:54:01 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 12:26:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By prk:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Unbelieveable. I'm highly doubtful the trooper has ever attended an officer survival class.




I bet he'll go to one now.

His takeaway move seemed a bit half-hearted.

Should he have gone for his gun as soon as he saw the door open back up?

Wait a few minutes for plate results before heading to the car? How long can that take?

Let his backup get in position first?

Don't know a lot about this, but I think I'd make a move or run and take my chances rather than be taken (RIP) hostage.

And what about the other trooper? Should he have backed off?

Hey, is this a training video?



I think I would have backed off.

I mean, what are you gonna do?
a.) Take a shot -
b.) Convince the guy to drop the weapon - you would probably know fairly quickly if this was going to succeed or not
c.)escalate the situation with your presence

I think these are the only three outcomes his added presence could produce.

His buddy obviously wasn't comfortable with plan (a) - very understandable
He tried plan (b) saw that it was develpoing into a (c) "type situation", and retreated.

I think I would have done the exact same thing his buddy did.
Although if I can add one point - After my retreat, I would have SOOOOO been going for my rifle.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 12:33:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mauser101:

Day-um. What a shitty spot to be in.

Ain't gonna Monday...afternoon...quarterback this one.



+1
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 12:41:33 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 12:42:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 12:43:13 PM EDT by natez]
He needs to f--ing read "Lines and Shadows."

He is lucky to be alive. Very lucky. He should have drawn and fired. Statistically, officers are going to take a hit in most shootouts, anyhow. We usually survive to win. The moment that s--tbag pointed a weapon at him, his life was a roll of the dice away from ending, anyhow. He should have drawn and fired. And what is up with the back-up officer? Close the gap and take the shot. No talking, no negotiating, just take the shot. There is no alternative, and letting hostage-taker go mobile almost guarantees that your hostage(s) are going to wind up dead. Close and shoot.

I smell a new training scenario coming up for the next sims training...
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:04:57 PM EDT
Holy cow...I'll say BAMA is right on this one.

Ben
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:06:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 1:07:25 PM EDT by distributor_of_pain]

Originally Posted By natez:
He needs to f--ing read "Lines and Shadows."

He is lucky to be alive. Very lucky. He should have drawn and fired. Statistically, officers are going to take a hit in most shootouts, anyhow. We usually survive to win. The moment that s--tbag pointed a weapon at him, his life was a roll of the dice away from ending, anyhow. He should have drawn and fired. And what is up with the back-up officer? Close the gap and take the shot. No talking, no negotiating, just take the shot. There is no alternative, and letting hostage-taker go mobile almost guarantees that your hostage(s) are going to wind up dead. Close and shoot.

I smell a new training scenario coming up for the next sims training...



I'm sure if he thought he could he would have.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:14:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By natez:

I smell a new training scenario coming up for the next sims training...



That very scenario is/should be a standard training for every road cop. There are well recognized drills for that exact conforntation. This was a common drill where I worked and it is very effective. The cop had several opportunities to handle the situation and did not do it.

I'm actually shocked.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:18:27 PM EDT
It's just an example of someone not choosing to be agressive enough soon enough. I'm glad it all worked out in the end.

What was the "girls going hysterical" bit? Did it sound to you like they were trying to warn the guy?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:18:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 1:19:54 PM EDT by Exp44]
I'm not a police officer, and I hate Monday-morning QB's, but IMO that was the worst possible way he could have reacted. I'm going to show this one to my Advisor, and see what he would have done in that scenario.

Very, very scary, like the Trooper Coates video.

And, if my backup took off like that while a scumbag had a gun to my head, you can be sure there'd be a giant-size ass whoopin once it was all over. What good is backup when they're headed the other way?

I'd love to run this one past my Explorers and see how they react... we do have a meeting coming up next week...
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:39:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By natez:

I smell a new training scenario coming up for the next sims training...



That very scenario is/should be a standard training for every road cop. There are well recognized drills for that exact conforntation. This was a common drill where I worked and it is very effective. The cop had several opportunities to handle the situation and did not do it.

I'm actually shocked.




We run the officer hostage scenario frequently, and EVERYONE knows what the standard for passing that one is.

I am thinking more about the drawing and firing when they already have a weapon pointed at you. Theoretically, you have pretty good chance, as action beats reaction. If they never get it in training, then it is "new" if they ever have to do it in real life. That is whay we should do this in training...
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:42:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By natez:

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By natez:

I smell a new training scenario coming up for the next sims training...



That very scenario is/should be a standard training for every road cop. There are well recognized drills for that exact conforntation. This was a common drill where I worked and it is very effective. The cop had several opportunities to handle the situation and did not do it.

I'm actually shocked.




We run the officer hostage scenario frequently, and EVERYONE knows what the standard for passing that one is.

I am thinking more about the drawing and firing when they already have a weapon pointed at you. Theoretically, you have pretty good chance, as action beats reaction. If they never get it in training, then it is "new" if they ever have to do it in real life. That is whay we should do this in training...



I'm not going to post the technique the officer needed to do. But he had what he needed in order to gain the upper hand and did not use it. He actually had several opportunities.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:44:02 PM EDT
Actually it looked like he attempted a classic "approached from the rear" type of disarm - but the kid was too fast for him. He kept telling the kid "OK, OK..." and asking him to take his finger off of the trigger - which was good.

Agree about not getting into the car and being taken away to the secondary crime scene - that's just suicidal.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:45:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By distributor_of_pain:

Originally Posted By natez:
He needs to f--ing read "Lines and Shadows."

He is lucky to be alive. Very lucky. He should have drawn and fired. Statistically, officers are going to take a hit in most shootouts, anyhow. We usually survive to win. The moment that s--tbag pointed a weapon at him, his life was a roll of the dice away from ending, anyhow. He should have drawn and fired. And what is up with the back-up officer? Close the gap and take the shot. No talking, no negotiating, just take the shot. There is no alternative, and letting hostage-taker go mobile almost guarantees that your hostage(s) are going to wind up dead. Close and shoot.

I smell a new training scenario coming up for the next sims training...



I'm sure if he thought he could he would have.



That is just it. Officer survival isn't just some training or a few special tactics. It is an ATTITUDE. He needed to KNOW at his core that he was going to put the other guy down and walk away in one piece, and that the other could shoot him, and that he was still going to win, and survive.

He needed to think that he could, and then do it. If he had the attitude that he could not draw and fire and beat someone holding a pistol on him, then he had already lost the fight.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 1:49:05 PM EDT
Bad situation that suprisingly didnt end in a death. I wonder what happened to that trooper after it was all said and done?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 2:08:37 PM EDT
Lucky cop, glad he made it ok.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 2:38:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By Mauser101:

Day-um. What a shitty spot to be in.

Ain't gonna Monday...afternoon...quarterback this one.



+1



+2
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 2:46:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By natez:

Originally Posted By distributor_of_pain:

Originally Posted By natez:
He needs to f--ing read "Lines and Shadows."

He is lucky to be alive. Very lucky. He should have drawn and fired. Statistically, officers are going to take a hit in most shootouts, anyhow. We usually survive to win. The moment that s--tbag pointed a weapon at him, his life was a roll of the dice away from ending, anyhow. He should have drawn and fired. And what is up with the back-up officer? Close the gap and take the shot. No talking, no negotiating, just take the shot. There is no alternative, and letting hostage-taker go mobile almost guarantees that your hostage(s) are going to wind up dead. Close and shoot.

I smell a new training scenario coming up for the next sims training...



I'm sure if he thought he could he would have.



That is just it. Officer survival isn't just some training or a few special tactics. It is an ATTITUDE. He needed to KNOW at his core that he was going to put the other guy down and walk away in one piece, and that the other could shoot him, and that he was still going to win, and survive.

He needed to think that he could, and then do it. If he had the attitude that he could not draw and fire and beat someone holding a pistol on him, then he had already lost the fight.



You would be surprised at the number of LEO's who do not have that attitude.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 2:56:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By natez:

Originally Posted By distributor_of_pain:

Originally Posted By natez:
He needs to f--ing read "Lines and Shadows."

He is lucky to be alive. Very lucky. He should have drawn and fired. Statistically, officers are going to take a hit in most shootouts, anyhow. We usually survive to win. The moment that s--tbag pointed a weapon at him, his life was a roll of the dice away from ending, anyhow. He should have drawn and fired. And what is up with the back-up officer? Close the gap and take the shot. No talking, no negotiating, just take the shot. There is no alternative, and letting hostage-taker go mobile almost guarantees that your hostage(s) are going to wind up dead. Close and shoot.

I smell a new training scenario coming up for the next sims training...



I'm sure if he thought he could he would have.



That is just it. Officer survival isn't just some training or a few special tactics. It is an ATTITUDE. He needed to KNOW at his core that he was going to put the other guy down and walk away in one piece, and that the other could shoot him, and that he was still going to win, and survive.

He needed to think that he could, and then do it. If he had the attitude that he could not draw and fire and beat someone holding a pistol on him, then he had already lost the fight.



You would be surprised at the number of LEO's who do not have that attitude.




No I wouldn't.

Officer Survival classes are a GREAT help. I have seen complacent folks come back born again hard.

Agency training is another. If the "extreme" situations are something that are familiar at some level to officers, then when the S hits the F on the streets, they will at least have SOME level of mental preparedness. When a really bad situation is going down, and you find yourself thinking "this is easier than training," then your agency suceeded.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 3:19:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 3:20:38 PM EDT by prk]
Does the lack of this attitude go with a lack of interest in their firearms, or in shooting?



Originally Posted By natez:
He needs to f--ing read "Lines and Shadows."

He is lucky to be alive. Very lucky. He should have drawn and fired. Statistically, officers are going to take a hit in most shootouts, anyhow. We usually survive to win. The moment that s--tbag pointed a weapon at him, his life was a roll of the dice away from ending, anyhow. He should have drawn and fired. And what is up with the back-up officer? Close the gap and take the shot. No talking, no negotiating, just take the shot. There is no alternative, and letting hostage-taker go mobile almost guarantees that your hostage(s) are going to wind up dead. Close and shoot.

I smell a new training scenario coming up for the next sims training...




Originally Posted By natez: You would be surprised at the number of LEO's who do not have that attitude.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 3:28:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By prk:
Does the lack of this attitude go with a lack of interest in their firearms, or in shooting?


Originally Posted By natez:


He needs to f--ing read "Lines and Shadows."

He is lucky to be alive. Very lucky. He should have drawn and fired. Statistically, officers are going to take a hit in most shootouts, anyhow. We usually survive to win. The moment that s--tbag pointed a weapon at him, his life was a roll of the dice away from ending, anyhow. He should have drawn and fired. And what is up with the back-up officer? Close the gap and take the shot. No talking, no negotiating, just take the shot. There is no alternative, and letting hostage-taker go mobile almost guarantees that your hostage(s) are going to wind up dead. Close and shoot.

I smell a new training scenario coming up for the next sims training...



Originally Posted By natez:

You would be surprised at the number of LEO's who do not have that attitude.




I think a lot has to do with a lack of intrest in firearms, shooting and basic survival skills. But a fair number of LEO's look at as a JOB and a job only.

I was very surprised in the video how the cop handled the whole deal. The driver being out of the vehicle before the stop was a major clue that something is not right. The drivers actions would have had me on my toes. This cop did not show any signs of concern. This video would make a great training aid for LEO's. So many mistakes were made by the trooper I was shocked.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:14:34 PM EDT
The fact that that officer got out of his vehicle with a clip board in his gun hand says a lot. I would not have tried to draw on a gun pointed right at me. Nobody is that fast. Once that guy was dangling the gun at his side, that was an even break and the thug is not wearing a vest. A lot of things about this one. I bet that officer doesn't get caught short anytime soon again.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:31:51 PM EDT
The officer exercised the same level of caution most people mistakenly believe an officer should use. How many times I have you read threads with people complaining about the officer using light, cover, and other tactical advantages whn he contacted them?

This is what happens when you assume the driver is a soccor mom. But if you assume every driver is a parolee you get complaints. Since one will get you killed and the other will only get you complaints guess which is the better course of action.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:35:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rustygun:
The fact that that officer got out of his vehicle with a clip board in his gun hand says a lot. I would not have tried to draw on a gun pointed right at me. Nobody is that fast.



Actually everybody with even basic training can be that fast. Action beats reaction, every time. The first person who decides to shoot is going to get the first shot off, it does not matter if the guns are in the holster or out of the holster. Most trained people can draw and shoot faster than the human mind can recognize that action and problem solve the appropriate response.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:47:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By Rustygun:
The fact that that officer got out of his vehicle with a clip board in his gun hand says a lot. I would not have tried to draw on a gun pointed right at me. Nobody is that fast.



Actually everybody with even basic training can be that fast. Action beats reaction, every time. The first person who decides to shoot is going to get the first shot off, it does not matter if the guns are in the holster or out of the holster. Most trained people can draw and shoot faster than the human mind can recognize that action and problem solve the appropriate response.



Actually the ticket book was in his off hand. He did not swap over till way into the incident. During that time the officer had several opportunities to end this deal. He had the tools in his possesion to end this conflict.

This officer IMO was operating in Condition White. Not even yellow. He was oblivious to what was going on.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:47:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
The officer exercised the same level of caution most people mistakenly believe an officer should use. How many times I have you read threads with people complaining about the officer using light, cover, and other tactical advantages whn he contacted them?

This is what happens when you assume the driver is a soccor mom. But if you assume every driver is a parolee you get complaints. Since one will get you killed and the other will only get you complaints guess which is the better course of action.



Amen.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 4:56:58 PM EDT
I agree that he was not on alert, but did anyone ever think that maybe the officer didnt want to shoot the kid? He tried for the gun pretty much ignoring his own gun. He seemed awful cool.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:26:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By prk:
Does the lack of this attitude go with a lack of interest in their firearms, or in shooting?




I don't know what this officers experience level is or why he let his guard down. I'm not going to Monday morning quarterback him either.

However, regarding the "lack of attitude" I have a little input. From my own experience - in November it will be 16 years on PATROL - It's not a lack of interest in firearms or in shooting. It's, at least in my case burn out. I've observed times that I found myself in a physical confrontation thinking, "Oh not this shit again". I shouldn't have been thinking that, I should have been thinking what I'm going to be doing two moves from now. That's when I knew I hit a very bad mental attitude regarding my job, my health/well being and my family. It was concern of mine when I would get like this. It's inevitable that if one goes into situations day after day you get burned out and start to let your guard down. It's easy to do. I'm not proud to admit it but it's happened to me. It's dangerous, it's what gets cops hurt or worse killed. I've been lucky, I was never seriously injured.

Things I've done to prevent getting into that bad frame of mind? At least once a year I read the Street Survival books, I try to go to some kind of firearms training school every other year, and I'm an active FTO and firearms instructor with our department. Many fellow officers look at being a FTO as a pain. I don't. I get as much out of it as the new guy. It's refreshing working with someone that has the drive to do the job and has the academy films fresh in his head, you know the "shoot don't shoot" ones! He gets knowledge, I get a good refresher on mindset and attitude.

I don't think it's necessarily a lack of interest in firearms or shooting. I think it's not keeping human nature in check. You can't get complacent, you can't let your guard down. Human nature wants you to believe that everything will be ok and you've done things like this before and they turned out ok. It's that attitude that will make your wife a widow.

I hope the officer in this video had a wake up call and has since changed his tactics.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:28:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
The officer exercised the same level of caution most people mistakenly believe an officer should use. How many times I have you read threads with people complaining about the officer using light, cover, and other tactical advantages whn he contacted them?

This is what happens when you assume the driver is a soccor mom. But if you assume every driver is a parolee you get complaints. Since one will get you killed and the other will only get you complaints guess which is the better course of action.



Amen.




A big +1!!
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 5:52:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WHITE_WOLFE:
I agree that he was not on alert, but did anyone ever think that maybe the officer didnt want to shoot the kid? He tried for the gun pretty much ignoring his own gun. He seemed awful cool.



Want doesn't enter into the equation.

At this point, it his DUTY to stop the threat. Period. Guess what? If Junior had turned and started to run away, the trooper had the authority, duty and responsibility to shoot Mr. Now-A-Fleeing Felon in the back.

Once someone has engaged in conduct this far beyond the pale, they are an immediate threat to EVERYONE else, and must be stopped, immediately. You pay the Police to do exactly that. If he wasn't up to the task of stopping the threat, then he shouldn't be strapping the gear on every day.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:16:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WHITE_WOLFE:
I agree that he was not on alert, but did anyone ever think that maybe the officer didnt want to shoot the kid? He tried for the gun pretty much ignoring his own gun. He seemed awful cool.



I pondered the thought. But I don't know. Did you hear him beg for his life, talk about his family?

Maybe he can't deal with the prospect of shooting someone. If so, he needs to get into another line of work.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:19:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 6:22:57 PM EDT by Wombat_SCSO]

Originally Posted By Henny:

I hope the officer in this video had a wake up call and has since changed his tactics.




Normally in those shows, don't they do follow up interviews in uniform - you know, to show they're proud to have survived and continue serving? He's sitting in a lawn chair in his back yard in a t-shirt. My guess is this incident spooked him and he retired/quit. Let's hope he doesn't have another lethal force encounter in real life, because he won't have back up next time.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:50:51 PM EDT
NOBODY driving by had a gun, looked at the scene, and thought that a cop with his hands in the air was a bad thing?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:59:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 8:01:27 PM EDT by AR15fan]

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
NOBODY driving by had a gun, looked at the scene, and thought that a cop with his hands in the air was a bad thing?



There are a couple issues at work there. First, even in shall issue states on a small percentage of the eligible population carries, and even less of them carry every day.

More disturbing is that a vocal segment of the gun culture identifies more with the suspects than the police. The tin foil hat crowd is among the most likely to carry every day but the least likely to risk their own ass to save a cop who their paranoia makes them hate. By tin foil hat crowd I am refering to the vocal minority like the Freemen who hacve murdered cops over seatbelt tickets and zoning disputes, and people tlike the "patriot" that ambushed the Cop at the gas pumps in prostest of Cali gun laws.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:42:52 PM EDT
Bet if there had been a dog in the car the cop would have been able to do a perfect Mozambique on it.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:56:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I pondered the thought. But I don't know. Did you hear him beg for his life, talk about his family?
Maybe he can't deal with the prospect of shooting someone. If so, he needs to get into another line of work.



Actually, it might have been the smartest thing he did. I've heard that once you're taken hostage, the best way of making sure that you stay alive is to 'humanise' yourself. Make yourself not just a badge or uniform or whatever, but to turn yourself into a person with a name, a life, and people who care about you and who you care about. May not have an effect on the most callous or die-hard person, but will have an effect on the majority of people who spontaneously take a hostage.

Also, if I were the second copper, I'd have backed off as well. I've got a radio, why not use it so that when the final confrontation comes, the numbers are more in his favour?

NTM
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:59:00 PM EDT
sooo tagged!
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:02:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
NOBODY driving by had a gun, looked at the scene, and thought that a cop with his hands in the air was a bad thing?



There are a couple issues at work there. First, even in shall issue states on a small percentage of the eligible population carries, and even less of them carry every day.

More disturbing is that a vocal segment of the gun culture identifies more with the suspects than the police. The tin foil hat crowd is among the most likely to carry every day but the least likely to risk their own ass to save a cop who their paranoia makes them hate. By tin foil hat crowd I am refering to the vocal minority like the Freemen who hacve murdered cops over seatbelt tickets and zoning disputes, and people tlike the "patriot" that ambushed the Cop at the gas pumps in prostest of Cali gun laws.


I'm curious about this, would you recommend civilians stopping and drawing their weapon in a situation like that? I would think when back-up arrived it wouldn't be good for the passerby?
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