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Posted: 10/8/2007 7:14:37 AM EDT
atholic News Service (www.catholicnews.com)
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – The Catholic Church does not seek to secure power, privileges, or economic and social advantages for itself, Pope Benedict XVI said. Advertisement The church's sole aim "is to serve mankind," encouraging people to look to the words and actions of Jesus as their "supreme rule of conduct," he said. The pope made his comments in an address to Italy's new ambassador to the Vatican, Antonio Zanardi Landi, who presented his credentials to the pope in a ceremony at the Vatican Oct. 4, the feast of St. Francis of Assisi, a patron saint of Italy. Pope Benedict said the church would never cease to offer its specific contribution of "promoting and highlighting the true, good and beautiful" that can be found in the world. He reaffirmed that church and state are independent and autonomous sovereign entities that freely engage in "reciprocal collaboration for the promotion of mankind and the good of the whole nation." "The church does not propose goals of power nor claim privileges, or aspire to positions with economic and social advantage," he said. Some European Union officials in August renewed calls for investigations into tax breaks given to Vatican buildings and charitable activities in Italy and Spain. Italy also gives the church local property-tax exemptions. The pope said the Catholic Church only asks that its "specific nature be considered" and that it be free to carry out its mission not just for the good of all Catholics, but for all people in Italy. |
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For the record, it is very common for the Catholic Church to be heavily involved in humanitarian efforts when there is a major disaster in the world. I'm not saying that the Catholic Church is perfect, but in recent years (at least during my lifetime) they have been involved in helping their fellow man.
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I am continually amazed by those who try to tear down all the is good and beautiful in the world for the sake of the poor. The goal is to bring them up for their own sake - not tear ourselves down. Matt With all that gold, you'd feed the world's poor for about a month. Then what? |
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see there ya go.. The Mormons also seem to do a pretty good job helping their own and we worship a common God the path may be different but the goal is the same Look at that divide by zero |
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I view (imo) the Church and its hierarchy as a 'middle man'. Anyone who picks up the Bible and preaches to me as to whats 'right and wrong', I would consider a 'middle man'. Considering that I have the mental power/ability to read it for myself. ETA: Born and raised Catholic here. I just don't go to Church nor do I listen to the Pope. |
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Yep. You know, you could use all the paintings in the Louvre to help heat a poor family's house for a day. Apparently some of you think that's a "better" use of it. I do think the church needs to be a bit more proactive against people (coughmuslimscough) killing Christians. Haven't heard anything from the church about the christians killed in Nigeria this weekend, the guy killed in gaza, etc. I dunno if they were Catholics, but they're still our brothers. I had hopes the Benedict would be more vocal about that sort of thing (especially desicration of christian stuff in Paley controlled areas), but he kinda hasn't been lately. |
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One just needs to look throughout the history of the Vatican and one will see that the pope is not quite telling the truth.
I suggest they start doing what they say by taking all the gold, silver and other valuable things they sit on and go build schools, hospitals, etc. Your Christian god owned NOTHING and helped everyone he could. The Vatican needs to be like their diety and walk the walk, not just talk the talk. |
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While each and every one of us (on this forum) has that ability, the Catholic Church has put 2000 years of study into that book. They have drawn some remarkable conclusions. They have some wonderful theories - and my experience with God has been richer for it. Sure, you can get the basic idea by reading it yourself. You'll miss a lot of the subtleties, though. There's also a lot more to being Christian than the Bible. The Bible is basically a thesis on Salvation: why and how it happened. If something doesn't support that thesis, it was not included. Those somethings make up the traditions of the Catholic Church. And, while they are not (as) binding as the Bible, they are extremely important to your relationship with God. Matt |
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Again with the tearing down... Matt |
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.... |
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Oh, I agree they have more experience in it. However, the 10 commandments could fit any form of life (that I can think of) where 'evil' and 'good' come into play in your life. Also.. I find it funny that you mention they have 2000 years of experience.. yet won't open their archives to the public to be able to study for themselves. [cynical] It used to be the literate were either in government.. or in the church. That way they could keep the sheep single minded and unknowing..[/cynical] |
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And no man will enter heaven by following the ten commandments (because it can't be done).
Can you read latin? greek? hebrew? Italian? no? then keep your grubby paws off the 2000-5000 year old documents. Matt |
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Ahh.. Do you own a home,car, any item that you don't need to survive? The Catholic church has built thousands of hospitials how many have you or your faith built? |
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I think the world would be a poorer place without the soup kitchens, schools, hospitals, social service programs (besides the soup kitchens already mentioned), and disaster aid programs that the Catholic Church either manages or sponsers.
No, I have no vested interest in defending the Catholic Church. I just think that credit should be given where it is due. |
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Then, I guess I will be going to hell.
If I wished to learn Latin or Greek, I could. However, I bet there are thousands of people out there who wish to be able to study the documents who can read, write and speak the above languages. I hear Spanish is similar to Italian anyway... |
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Oh, I agree the Church has done some good things. But I drew the line within the last 5 or so years when they were shifting priests around to hide them for who they truly were... (pedophiles). When the church had to pay out millions to people who have sued, I didn't bat an eye. I just didn't donate any $. I put my $ to other organizations. |
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+1000 |
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I have never heard a Catholic tell an evangelical that they are going to hell because they are not Catholic. Sorry to say but I cant say the same about evangelicals (who are usualy led by some fire+brimstone, bible thumping self ordanined "preacherman")
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The church should work for the glory of God. In doing so it will have all the power it needs. It is wrong to work for earthly glory. Do the right thing and you will have all the honor and power you need. This pope is correct in his statement.
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The poor people of Stockton donated a huge amount of money to add a gold plated spire to their catholic church. The church decided years later to renovate the spire... and when they were done no one knew where the gold went.... |
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The Catholic Church has the same number of screwed up clergy as other denominations - the difference is that the Church has a heirarchy and can be attacked more easily than a protestant church. It also makes for better headlines when tearing down the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is, if you believe, the Church established by Jesus. If you believe that, you believe in his adversary, Lucifer. The homosexuals and pedophiles in the Church, while abhorent in themselves, are symptoms of the war between God and Lucifer. For two thousand years, Lucifer has been doing his damndest to prevail against the Church. One way to do that is by infiltrating homosexuals and pedophiles into the clergy. The resulting lawsuits and payouts hit the church in the pocketbook (while it's not quite so supernatural as ancient battles with flaming swords, it is, without question, effective). Read "The Windswept House" by Malachi Martin. Then read the prophecy of St. Malachy (no relation to the above). Things will become clear - and then you'll go visit the Survival Forum. Matt |
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Very good post ! |
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So, the Pope was an ally of Lucifer himself? (I am stretching... but making a point) Considering the 'coverup' went all the way to the Vatican. Yes, the Catholic church is easier to 'attack' because of its structure/order system. But I don't ally myself with any church, fyi. |
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NO the pope (JPII) was never on the darkside read further into it if you are interested... If you are lookign for a chilling truthful account of how statan has inflitrated all places and things, If you are looking for driveby attack snips for the Catholic church try Jack Chick |
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Forgive my ignorance, but was it ever established that the coverup went to the Vatican? From what little I remember, there were certainly clergy guilty at the diocese level for shuffling around the abusers. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Vatican was anxious to move past the problem quickly, considering the ugliness of the situation. I just don't recall whether it was established that the coverup went to the Vatican. I ask because it is possible that the problem was regional and not a true reflection of the upper Catholic leadership. However, I admit to not remembering a lot of the details (and it got so drawn out that I tuned much of it out after a while). |
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Well, where did Cardinal Law get shipped before the authorities could get to him? There's your answer on how far the cover up went. A: Rome |
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That is not what I said. (I'm a bit dense... I don't get it)
The pope is kind of like a "first among equals," not a king. There is no proof (or even credible allegation) that the magesterium of the Church (as a whole) had any part in that cover-up.
I'm sorry to hear that. I recall something about the hardening of hearts... Matt |
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It's not "Marxist" to expect a group/agency/religion that constantly supports an additional burden on its members and even those who aren't members to take the vow of poverty they wish to enforce on us. Certain churches wholeheartedly support wealth confiscation, civil disobedience and even amnesty for illegal aliens, while expecting the taxpayer (not their churchgoers) to pony up for the bill. I'm all for people being as liberal as they want with their money, but when their guilt drives them to eye my property, I draw the line. Anyway, I think the church is prohibited from selling capital (land, art, etc.) to pay for operations. If this was a business, I'd agree that it's dangerous to "dip into capital". But, they go one further and support confiscation of my property for their goals. Former Catholic. 9 years Catholic Education. Former unmolested alter boy. |
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+1000000000000000 |
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Please provide an example of a Catholic Diocese that wants the power to tax or confiscate anybodys assets |
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I attend a Catholic church and find its format useful as a study guide. That's what Catholicism as a form of worship was intended for: a study guide for the years predating widespread literacy. |
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I dunno.. I think I disagree. Maybe not him directly on involvement in moving around priests to avoid problems, but it was under his control.
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Other churches don't transfer the pedophiles around to new hunting grounds, and hide the pedophiles' actions from law enforcement.
Tinfoil, or just fruitcake? We quote, you decide. |
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I'm sorry to hear that you are no longer unmolested. |
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You guys can point out that the Vatican has a lot of treasures - well no shit. It has been around -2000- years. Any church will have golden cups and plates for communion. If your church lasted 2000 years and was all over the globe - you too would have some treasures.
The Vatican amassed a LOT of its artwork and ancient relics at a time when no one cared about such things. They did a lot actually to preserve antiques. Finally - they give a SHIT load to the poor. They are all over the world in shit holes everywhere doing missionary work. I guess being the largest makes them a target - but they get a lot more grief than they deserve. |
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The pedophile thing, IMHO, is blown out of proportion. First off -not everyone accused is guilty. REmember our justice system? I can point fingers all day long - doesnt make it true. Nor should a priest be fired just from an accusation. Were there abuses - sure. But there are abuses in every denomination of faith. I know a guy who divorced his wife of 25 years to shack up with a 21 yr old chicky snack - perks of being a minister I guess. I am not sure how much of a 'cover up' there was. I think in some cases they didnt deal with it correctly. But no one is perfect and its not something you want out there. But the catholics are not alone when it comes to people abusing their position to take advantage of others. |
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Credit and accusations where due.
Yes, the Church has done some wonderful things, but it has also done some awful things. The Pope's words ring hollow because their wealth is so obviously huge and they pull the shuffle-the-priests thing. OTOH, many of its detractors in modern society, who are so quick to demand that the Church peel the gold off their ceilings, would be the first to scream bloody murder if we were to walk into the Met or the Whitney or any of their precious "art" museums and demand it all be sold off for charity. At least the Church does SOMETHING with their wealth. I think if the Church cleaned its ranks of the filth that has passed for priests lately, and the scum that have protected them, they would be a lot less exposed. That said, and despite a great internal battle of faith of my own, I still consider the Roman Catholic Church to be the Mother Church of Christianity, no matter how astray it may have gone. |
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Of course not everyone accused is guilty, I never said that. My point is that the Church moved around people to prevent them from being prosecuted by law enforcement, or at the very least... investigated. |
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You are indeed making a point, even if it probably isn't one you intended to make. |
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I agree. However one only has to be a casual student of history to see that the statement in the original post may be current policy but has very little basis in reality over most of the time period of the last 600 years. Quite the contrary in fact. |
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Not quite......It's true that Protestant church have had the same pedophile problems. The differece is that the Catholic Church covered up the problem to protect themselves. All they would have had to do was turn them over to law enforcement and they wouldn't have to pay out in court. |
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Awful lot of positive words around these parts for an organization that constantly pushes for more "immigrants" from Mexico (not a popular GD position) and is consistently negative about the US being in Iraq and A-stan...
I agree all churches have their problems, they are run by mere men, just like you and I, after all... Have also heard many times that the Greek Orthodox Church is the "original" church, anyone that knows more care to comment? (since I saw that being used for the Catholic Church in this thread) For the record, not trying to bash the church here, just trying to see what you think... |
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The Greek and Serbian Orthodox split from the Catholic church. While there may be asshat Bishiops that try and use their position for political gain the official position of the Catholic church is not break the law and immigrate all willy nilly. The Catholic church is also not saying that Iraq/AFG are an usjust war... The Pope is but a man and entitled to his opinions he is not trying to make an infallable statement that the WOT is an unjust war |
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Or was it the other way around? Who decides? |
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See - I do not know specifics on if this happened or why. As I understood it, some were moved so that they could be productive elsewhere while the investigation was conducted and they could work with out controversy. This is definitely a black eye. But you cant throw away an entire organization because of bad decisions made by some of the bishops. |
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I didn't say the Catholic Church wants the power to tax directly. But I've heard more than enough Catholic priests (and other denominations, to be fair) calling for increased taxes to care for "the poorest among us". It's no doubt that it offers sanctuary to illegal aliens and is pushing for reforms that would legalize many, if not all illegal aliens and allow increased access across the border. |
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Well, then, are you willing to pay property taxes on those things that you have acquired over the millenia? (Privileges) |
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Sounds like you have a crappy diocese, I am sorry to hear that! One of my main complaints is that the US Conference of Bishiops is weak and does not crack down on the bad apples |
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