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Posted: 10/8/2007 6:14:37 AM EST
atholic News Service (www.catholicnews.com)
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – The Catholic Church does not seek to secure power, privileges, or economic and social advantages for itself, Pope Benedict XVI said.

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The church's sole aim "is to serve mankind," encouraging people to look to the words and actions of Jesus as their "supreme rule of conduct," he said.

The pope made his comments in an address to Italy's new ambassador to the Vatican, Antonio Zanardi Landi, who presented his credentials to the pope in a ceremony at the Vatican Oct. 4, the feast of St. Francis of Assisi, a patron saint of Italy.

Pope Benedict said the church would never cease to offer its specific contribution of "promoting and highlighting the true, good and beautiful" that can be found in the world.

He reaffirmed that church and state are independent and autonomous sovereign entities that freely engage in "reciprocal collaboration for the promotion of mankind and the good of the whole nation."

"The church does not propose goals of power nor claim privileges, or aspire to positions with economic and social advantage," he said.

Some European Union officials in August renewed calls for investigations into tax breaks given to Vatican buildings and charitable activities in Italy and Spain. Italy also gives the church local property-tax exemptions.

The pope said the Catholic Church only asks that its "specific nature be considered" and that it be free to carry out its mission not just for the good of all Catholics, but for all people in Italy.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:15:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:08:43 AM EST
For the record, it is very common for the Catholic Church to be heavily involved in humanitarian efforts when there is a major disaster in the world. I'm not saying that the Catholic Church is perfect, but in recent years (at least during my lifetime) they have been involved in helping their fellow man.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:09:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If they gave a shit about poor people they'd scrape all that stolen gold off their ceilings.


I am continually amazed by those who try to tear down all the is good and beautiful in the world for the sake of the poor.

The goal is to bring them up for their own sake - not tear ourselves down.
Matt

With all that gold, you'd feed the world's poor for about a month. Then what?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:10:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
For the record, it is very common for the Catholic Church to be heavily involved in humanitarian efforts when there is a major disaster in the world. I'm not saying that the Catholic Church is perfect, but in recent years (at least during my lifetime) they have been involved in helping their fellow man.


see there ya go..
The Mormons also seem to do a pretty good job helping their own and we worship a common God the path may be different but the goal is the same

Look at that divide by zero
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:15:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 7:16:20 AM EST by VooDoo3dfx]

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
My faith is between me and God.

I don't need a middle man.



Ok. I don't have a middle man but I am Catholic


I view (imo) the Church and its hierarchy as a 'middle man'.

Anyone who picks up the Bible and preaches to me as to whats 'right and wrong', I would consider a 'middle man'.

Considering that I have the mental power/ability to read it for myself.

ETA: Born and raised Catholic here. I just don't go to Church nor do I listen to the Pope.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:17:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 7:20:37 AM EST by Spade]

Originally Posted By valheru21:
I am continually amazed by those who try to tear down all the is good and beautiful in the world for the sake of the poor.

The goal is to bring them up for their own sake - not tear ourselves down.
Matt

With all that gold, you'd feed the world's poor for about a month. Then what?


Yep.
You know, you could use all the paintings in the Louvre to help heat a poor family's house for a day. Apparently some of you think that's a "better" use of it.

I do think the church needs to be a bit more proactive against people (coughmuslimscough) killing Christians. Haven't heard anything from the church about the christians killed in Nigeria this weekend, the guy killed in gaza, etc. I dunno if they were Catholics, but they're still our brothers. I had hopes the Benedict would be more vocal about that sort of thing (especially desicration of christian stuff in Paley controlled areas), but he kinda hasn't been lately.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:22:27 AM EST
One just needs to look throughout the history of the Vatican and one will see that the pope is not quite telling the truth.

I suggest they start doing what they say by taking all the gold, silver and other valuable things they sit on and go build schools, hospitals, etc.

Your Christian god owned NOTHING and helped everyone he could. The Vatican needs to be like their diety and walk the walk, not just talk the talk.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:22:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
My faith is between me and God.

I don't need a middle man.



Ok. I don't have a middle man but I am Catholic


I view (imo) the Church and its hierarchy as a 'middle man'.

Anyone who picks up the Bible and preaches to me as to whats 'right and wrong', I would consider a 'middle man'.

Considering that I have the mental power/ability to read it for myself.

ETA: Born and raised Catholic here. I just don't go to Church nor do I listen to the Pope.


While each and every one of us (on this forum) has that ability, the Catholic Church has put 2000 years of study into that book. They have drawn some remarkable conclusions. They have some wonderful theories - and my experience with God has been richer for it. Sure, you can get the basic idea by reading it yourself. You'll miss a lot of the subtleties, though.

There's also a lot more to being Christian than the Bible. The Bible is basically a thesis on Salvation: why and how it happened. If something doesn't support that thesis, it was not included. Those somethings make up the traditions of the Catholic Church. And, while they are not (as) binding as the Bible, they are extremely important to your relationship with God.
Matt
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:23:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By MetalChef:
One just needs to look throughout the history of the Vatican and one will see that the pope is not quite telling the truth.

I suggest they start doing what they say by taking all the gold, silver and other valuable things they sit on and go build schools, hospitals, etc.

Your Christian god owned NOTHING and helped everyone he could. The Vatican needs to be like their diety and walk the walk, not just talk the talk.


Again with the tearing down...
Matt
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:25:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 7:26:56 AM EST by vrwc0915]

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
My faith is between me and God.

I don't need a middle man.



Ok. I don't have a middle man but I am Catholic


I view (imo) the Church and its hierarchy as a 'middle man'.

Anyone who picks up the Bible and preaches to me as to whats 'right and wrong', I would consider a 'middle man'.

Considering that I have the mental power/ability to read it for myself.

ETA: Born and raised Catholic here. I just don't go to Church nor do I listen to the Pope.


While each and every one of us (on this forum) has that ability, the Catholic Church has put 2000 years of study into that book. They have drawn some remarkable conclusions. They have some wonderful theories - and my experience with God has been richer for it. Sure, you can get the basic idea by reading it yourself. You'll miss a lot of the subtleties, though.

There's also a lot more to being Christian than the Bible. The Bible is basically a thesis on Salvation: why and how it happened. If something doesn't support that thesis, it was not included. Those somethings make up the traditions of the Catholic Church. And, while they are not (as) binding as the Bible, they are extremely important to your relationship with God.
Matt


....
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:25:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By valheru21:
While each and every one of us (on this forum) has that ability, the Catholic Church has put 2000 years of study into that book. They have drawn some remarkable conclusions. They have some wonderful theories - and my experience with God has been richer for it. Sure, you can get the basic idea by reading it yourself. You'll miss a lot of the subtleties, though.

There's also a lot more to being Christian than the Bible. The Bible is basically a thesis on Salvation: why and how it happened. If something doesn't support that thesis, it was not included. Those somethings make up the traditions of the Catholic Church. And, while they are not (as) binding as the Bible, they are extremely important to your relationship with God.
Matt


Oh, I agree they have more experience in it.

However, the 10 commandments could fit any form of life (that I can think of) where 'evil' and 'good' come into play in your life.

Also.. I find it funny that you mention they have 2000 years of experience.. yet won't open their archives to the public to be able to study for themselves.

[cynical] It used to be the literate were either in government.. or in the church. That way they could keep the sheep single minded and unknowing..[/cynical]
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:29:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
Oh, I agree they have more experience in it.

However, the 10 commandments could fit any form of life (that I can think of) where 'evil' and 'good' come into play in your life.


And no man will enter heaven by following the ten commandments (because it can't be done).


Also.. I find it funny that you mention they have 2000 years of experience.. yet won't open their archives to the public to be able to study for themselves.


Can you read latin? greek? hebrew? Italian? no? then keep your grubby paws off the 2000-5000 year old documents.
Matt
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:32:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By MetalChef:
One just needs to look throughout the history of the Vatican and one will see that the pope is not quite telling the truth.

I suggest they start doing what they say by taking all the gold, silver and other valuable things they sit on and go build schools, hospitals, etc.

Your Christian god owned NOTHING and helped everyone he could. The Vatican needs to be like their diety and walk the walk, not just talk the talk.



Ahh..
Do you own a home,car, any item that you don't need to survive?

The Catholic church has built thousands of hospitials how many have you or your faith built?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:34:42 AM EST
I think the world would be a poorer place without the soup kitchens, schools, hospitals, social service programs (besides the soup kitchens already mentioned), and disaster aid programs that the Catholic Church either manages or sponsers.

No, I have no vested interest in defending the Catholic Church. I just think that credit should be given where it is due.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:38:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By valheru21:
And no man will enter heaven by following the ten commandments (because it can't be done).

Then, I guess I will be going to hell.



Can you read latin? greek? hebrew? Italian? no? then keep your grubby paws off the 2000-5000 year old documents.
Matt


If I wished to learn Latin or Greek, I could.

However, I bet there are thousands of people out there who wish to be able to study the documents who can read, write and speak the above languages.

I hear Spanish is similar to Italian anyway...
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:39:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
No, I have no vested interest in defending the Catholic Church. I just think that credit should be given where it is due.


Oh, I agree the Church has done some good things.

But I drew the line within the last 5 or so years when they were shifting priests around to hide them for who they truly were... (pedophiles).

When the church had to pay out millions to people who have sued, I didn't bat an eye.

I just didn't donate any $. I put my $ to other organizations.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:52:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
I think the world would be a poorer place without the soup kitchens, schools, hospitals, social service programs (besides the soup kitchens already mentioned), and disaster aid programs that the Catholic Church either manages or sponsers.

No, I have no vested interest in defending the Catholic Church. I just think that credit should be given where it is due.



+1000

Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:02:56 AM EST
I have never heard a Catholic tell an evangelical that they are going to hell because they are not Catholic. Sorry to say but I cant say the same about evangelicals (who are usualy led by some fire+brimstone, bible thumping self ordanined "preacherman")
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:10:18 AM EST
The church should work for the glory of God. In doing so it will have all the power it needs. It is wrong to work for earthly glory. Do the right thing and you will have all the honor and power you need. This pope is correct in his statement.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:16:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If they gave a shit about poor people they'd scrape all that stolen gold off their ceilings.


The poor people of Stockton donated a huge amount of money to add a gold plated spire to their catholic church. The church decided years later to renovate the spire... and when they were done no one knew where the gold went....

Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:18:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
No, I have no vested interest in defending the Catholic Church. I just think that credit should be given where it is due.


Oh, I agree the Church has done some good things.

But I drew the line within the last 5 or so years when they were shifting priests around to hide them for who they truly were... (pedophiles).

When the church had to pay out millions to people who have sued, I didn't bat an eye.

I just didn't donate any $. I put my $ to other organizations.


The Catholic Church has the same number of screwed up clergy as other denominations - the difference is that the Church has a heirarchy and can be attacked more easily than a protestant church. It also makes for better headlines when tearing down the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is, if you believe, the Church established by Jesus. If you believe that, you believe in his adversary, Lucifer. The homosexuals and pedophiles in the Church, while abhorent in themselves, are symptoms of the war between God and Lucifer. For two thousand years, Lucifer has been doing his damndest to prevail against the Church. One way to do that is by infiltrating homosexuals and pedophiles into the clergy. The resulting lawsuits and payouts hit the church in the pocketbook (while it's not quite so supernatural as ancient battles with flaming swords, it is, without question, effective).

Read "The Windswept House" by Malachi Martin.
Then read the prophecy of St. Malachy (no relation to the above).
Things will become clear - and then you'll go visit the Survival Forum.
Matt
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 8:21:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
No, I have no vested interest in defending the Catholic Church. I just think that credit should be given where it is due.


Oh, I agree the Church has done some good things.

But I drew the line within the last 5 or so years when they were shifting priests around to hide them for who they truly were... (pedophiles).

When the church had to pay out millions to people who have sued, I didn't bat an eye.

I just didn't donate any $. I put my $ to other organizations.


The Catholic Church has the same number of screwed up clergy as other denominations - the difference is that the Church has a heirarchy and can be attacked more easily than a protestant church. It also makes for better headlines when tearing down the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is, if you believe, the Church established by Jesus. If you believe that, you believe in his adversary, Lucifer. The homosexuals and pedophiles in the Church, while abhorent in themselves, are symptoms of the war between God and Lucifer. For two thousand years, Lucifer has been doing his damndest to prevail against the Church. One way to do that is by infiltrating homosexuals and pedophiles into the clergy. The resulting lawsuits and payouts hit the church in the pocketbook (while it's not quite so supernatural as ancient battles with flaming swords, it is, without question, effective).

Read "The Windswept House" by Malachi Martin.
Then read the prophecy of St. Malachy (no relation to the above).
Things will become clear - and then you'll go visit the Survival Forum.
Matt


Very good post !
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:48:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 9:49:16 AM EST by VooDoo3dfx]

Originally Posted By valheru21:
The Catholic Church has the same number of screwed up clergy as other denominations - the difference is that the Church has a heirarchy and can be attacked more easily than a protestant church. It also makes for better headlines when tearing down the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is, if you believe, the Church established by Jesus. If you believe that, you believe in his adversary, Lucifer. The homosexuals and pedophiles in the Church, while abhorent in themselves, are symptoms of the war between God and Lucifer. For two thousand years, Lucifer has been doing his damndest to prevail against the Church. One way to do that is by infiltrating homosexuals and pedophiles into the clergy. The resulting lawsuits and payouts hit the church in the pocketbook (while it's not quite so supernatural as ancient battles with flaming swords, it is, without question, effective).

Read "The Windswept House" by Malachi Martin.
Then read the prophecy of St. Malachy (no relation to the above).
Things will become clear - and then you'll go visit the Survival Forum.
Matt


So, the Pope was an ally of Lucifer himself? (I am stretching... but making a point)

Considering the 'coverup' went all the way to the Vatican.

Yes, the Catholic church is easier to 'attack' because of its structure/order system.

But I don't ally myself with any church, fyi.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:04:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

Originally Posted By valheru21:
The Catholic Church has the same number of screwed up clergy as other denominations - the difference is that the Church has a heirarchy and can be attacked more easily than a protestant church. It also makes for better headlines when tearing down the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is, if you believe, the Church established by Jesus. If you believe that, you believe in his adversary, Lucifer. The homosexuals and pedophiles in the Church, while abhorent in themselves, are symptoms of the war between God and Lucifer. For two thousand years, Lucifer has been doing his damndest to prevail against the Church. One way to do that is by infiltrating homosexuals and pedophiles into the clergy. The resulting lawsuits and payouts hit the church in the pocketbook (while it's not quite so supernatural as ancient battles with flaming swords, it is, without question, effective).

Read "The Windswept House" by Malachi Martin.
Then read the prophecy of St. Malachy (no relation to the above).
Things will become clear - and then you'll go visit the Survival Forum.
Matt


So, the Pope was an ally of Lucifer himself? (I am stretching... but making a point)

Considering the 'coverup' went all the way to the Vatican.

Yes, the Catholic church is easier to 'attack' because of its structure/order system.

But I don't ally myself with any church, fyi.



NO the pope (JPII) was never on the darkside read further into it if you are interested...

If you are lookign for a chilling truthful account of how statan has inflitrated all places and things, If you are looking for driveby attack snips for the Catholic church try Jack Chick
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:08:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

So, the Pope was an ally of Lucifer himself? (I am stretching... but making a point)

Considering the 'coverup' went all the way to the Vatican.

Yes, the Catholic church is easier to 'attack' because of its structure/order system.

But I don't ally myself with any church, fyi.


Forgive my ignorance, but was it ever established that the coverup went to the Vatican?

From what little I remember, there were certainly clergy guilty at the diocese level for shuffling around the abusers. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Vatican was anxious to move past the problem quickly, considering the ugliness of the situation. I just don't recall whether it was established that the coverup went to the Vatican.

I ask because it is possible that the problem was regional and not a true reflection of the upper Catholic leadership. However, I admit to not remembering a lot of the details (and it got so drawn out that I tuned much of it out after a while).
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:14:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

So, the Pope was an ally of Lucifer himself? (I am stretching... but making a point)

Considering the 'coverup' went all the way to the Vatican.

Yes, the Catholic church is easier to 'attack' because of its structure/order system.

But I don't ally myself with any church, fyi.


Forgive my ignorance, but was it ever established that the coverup went to the Vatican?

From what little I remember, there were certainly clergy guilty at the diocese level for shuffling around the abusers. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Vatican was anxious to move past the problem quickly, considering the ugliness of the situation. I just don't recall whether it was established that the coverup went to the Vatican.

I ask because it is possible that the problem was regional and not a true reflection of the upper Catholic leadership. However, I admit to not remembering a lot of the details (and it got so drawn out that I tuned much of it out after a while).



Well, where did Cardinal Law get shipped before the authorities could get to him? There's your answer on how far the cover up went.


A: Rome
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:38:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
So, the Pope was an ally of Lucifer himself? (I am stretching... but making a point)


That is not what I said. (I'm a bit dense... I don't get it)


Considering the 'coverup' went all the way to the Vatican.


The pope is kind of like a "first among equals," not a king. There is no proof (or even credible allegation) that the magesterium of the Church (as a whole) had any part in that cover-up.


Yes, the Catholic church is easier to 'attack' because of its structure/order system.

But I don't ally myself with any church, fyi.


I'm sorry to hear that. I recall something about the hardening of hearts...
Matt
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:43:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 10:46:14 AM EST by SJSAMPLE]

Originally Posted By TheRegulator:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If they gave a shit about poor people they'd scrape all that stolen gold off their ceilings.


And do what with the Gold? ...Hmmm Mr. Marx?


It's not "Marxist" to expect a group/agency/religion that constantly supports an additional burden on its members and even those who aren't members to take the vow of poverty they wish to enforce on us.

Certain churches wholeheartedly support wealth confiscation, civil disobedience and even amnesty for illegal aliens, while expecting the taxpayer (not their churchgoers) to pony up for the bill.

I'm all for people being as liberal as they want with their money, but when their guilt drives them to eye my property, I draw the line.

Anyway, I think the church is prohibited from selling capital (land, art, etc.) to pay for operations.
If this was a business, I'd agree that it's dangerous to "dip into capital".
But, they go one further and support confiscation of my property for their goals.

Former Catholic.
9 years Catholic Education.
Former unmolested alter boy.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 10:45:51 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If they gave a shit about poor people they'd scrape all that stolen gold off their ceilings.


+1000000000000000
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 11:00:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By TheRegulator:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If they gave a shit about poor people they'd scrape all that stolen gold off their ceilings.


And do what with the Gold? ...Hmmm Mr. Marx?


It's not "Marxist" to expect a group/agency/religion that constantly supports an additional burden on its members and even those who aren't members to take the vow of poverty they wish to enforce on us.

Certain churches wholeheartedly support wealth confiscation, civil disobedience and even amnesty for illegal aliens, while expecting the taxpayer (not their churchgoers) to pony up for the bill.

I'm all for people being as liberal as they want with their money, but when their guilt drives them to eye my property, I draw the line.

Anyway, I think the church is prohibited from selling capital (land, art, etc.) to pay for operations.
If this was a business, I'd agree that it's dangerous to "dip into capital".
But, they go one further and support confiscation of my property for their goals.

Former Catholic.
9 years Catholic Education.
Former unmolested alter boy.


Please provide an example of a Catholic Diocese that wants the power to tax or confiscate anybodys assets
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 11:25:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 11:26:52 AM EST by Yellowfin]

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:
Please provide an example of a Catholic Diocese that wants the power to tax or confiscate anybodys assets
Nowadays, none. 300 years ago? All of them for about 1100 years in a row. However now it can be said that those who advocate socialist politicians do in fact want confiscation via taxes--they just elect someone to do it for them.

I attend a Catholic church and find its format useful as a study guide. That's what Catholicism as a form of worship was intended for: a study guide for the years predating widespread literacy.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 12:04:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 12:23:28 PM EST by VooDoo3dfx]

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:
NO the pope (JPII) was never on the darkside read further into it if you are interested...

If you are lookign for a chilling truthful account of how statan has inflitrated all places and things, If you are looking for driveby attack snips for the Catholic church try Jack Chick


I dunno.. I think I disagree.

Maybe not him directly on involvement in moving around priests to avoid problems, but it was under his control.


(CBS) For decades, priests in this country abused children in parish after parish while their superiors covered it all up. Now it turns out the orders for this cover up were written in Rome at the highest levels of the Vatican.

CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales has uncovered a church document kept secret for 40 years.

The confidential Vatican document, obtained by CBS News, lays out a church policy that calls for absolute secrecy when it comes to sexual abuse by priests - anyone who speaks out could be thrown out of the church.

The policy was written in 1962 by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani.

The document, once "stored in the secret archives" of the Vatican, focuses on crimes initiated as part of the confessional relationship and what it calls the "worst crime": sexual assault committed by a priest" or "attempted by him with youths of either sex or with brute animals."

Bishops are instructed to pursue these cases "in the most secretive way...restrained by a perpetual silence...and everyone {including the alleged victim) ...is to observe the strictest secret, which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office...under the penalty of excommunication."

Larry Drivon, a lawyer who represents alleged victims, said, “This document is significant because it's a blueprint for deception.”

Drivon said this proves what he has alleged on behalf of victims in priest-abuse lawsuits: that the church engaged in a crime – racketeering.

“It's an instruction manual on how to deceive and how to protect pedophiles,” Drivon said. "And exactly how to avoid the truth coming out."

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said the document is being taken out of context, that it's a church law that deals only with religious crimes and sins. And that the secrecy is meant to protect the faithful from scandal.

“The idea that this is some sort of blueprint to keep this secret is simply wrong,” said Msgr. Francis Maniscalco, a spokesman for the Conference.

“This is a system of law which is complete in itself and is not telling the bishops in any way about how to handle these crimes when they are considered as civil crimes,” Maniscalco said.

But Richard Sipe, a former priest who has written about sex abuse and secrecy in the church, said the document sends a chilling message.

“This is the code for how you must deal with sex by priests. You keep it secret at all costs,” Sipe said. “And that's what's happened. It's happened in every diocese in this country.”

According to church records, the document was a bedrock of Catholic sex abuse policy until America's bishops met last summer and drafted new policies to address the crisis in the church.




* Bernard Francis Law, Cardinal and Archbishop of Boston, Massachusetts, United States resigned after Church documents were revealed which suggested he had covered up sexual abuse committed by priests in his archdiocese.[37] For example, Father John Geoghan was shifted from one parish to another although Cardinal Law had often been informed of his abuse. In December 1984 auxiliary Bishop John M. D’Arcy wrote to Cardinal Law complaining about the reassignment of Geoghan to another Boston-area parish because of his “history of homosexual involvement with young boys."[38] The Vatican announced on December 13, 2002 that Pope John Paul II had accepted Law's resignation as Archbishop and reassigned him to an administrative position in the Roman Curia and named him archpriest of the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore. Cardinal Law later presided at one of the Pope's funeral masses. Bishop Séan P. O'Malley, the Capuchin friar who replaced Law as archbishop, was forced to sell a good deal of valuable real estate and to close a number of churches in order to pay $120,000,000 in claims against the archdiocese.



Vatican 'ordered abuse cover-up'
Cardinals in Rome
The Church has been hit by worldwide sex abuse scandals
A secret Vatican document, outlining procedures for handling allegations of sex abuse by priests, has been published in the US and UK.

Lawyers acting for alleged victims of abuse say the document proves that for decades the Vatican has systematically obstructed the course of justice in order to protect Catholic priests.

Church lawyers, on the other hand, argue that the document referred only to church law and did not order bishops to engage in criminal cover-ups.

But the US lawyer who uncovered the document told a British newspaper the archive material is a smoking gun.

The lawyer, Daniel Shea, told The Observer newspaper the 1962 Vatican instruction was "a devious attempt to conceal criminal conduct".

It "is a blueprint for deception and concealment", the Sunday newspaper quotes him as saying.


So that these matters be pursued in a most secretive way, everyone is to be restrained by a perpetual silence under penalty of excommunication.

Read extracts from document
The document was sent to every bishop in the world, with orders to keep it under lock and key, the BBC's David Willey in Rome reports.

Mr Shea, who represents alleged victims of abuse by Catholic priests, obtained the document from an American priest and handed it over to US authorities.

It bears the seal of Pope John XXIII, and calls for "strictest" secrecy in dealing with abuse allegations within the Church.

It threatens to expel from the Church anyone who breaks their silence.

It deals primarily with priests accused of propositioning congregants during confession, the Catholic rite in which the faithful tell priests of their sins. Mr Shea says he was given the document by a clergyman in Germany who has close dealings with the Vatican.

He handed a copy of the document to US authorities late last month.

Church's defence

Early in August, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops said that the document, "Instruction on the manner of proceeding in cases of solicitation", had not been in force for years.

Former Boston Archbishop Cardinal Bernard Law
Cardinal Law was forced out by cover-ups
The conference said it was superseded by later guidelines introduced in the 1960s, 1970s and in 1983, the Associated Press reported.

The Vatican's 1983 Code of Canon Law says a priest found to have abused a minor can be defrocked.

The conference also said the 1962 document "had no bearing on civil law" and had been misrepresented.

The US Catholic Church has been rocked by revelations of sexual abuse by priests.

Bishops there have been accused of protecting priests suspected of sexual abuse, moving them to new parishes rather than confronting the problem.

The leader of England and Wales's Catholics, Archbishop Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, has apologised for relocating priest Michael Hill when accusations against him arose.

Vatican critics say the 1962 document suggests bishops who moved priests may have been acting in line with instructions from Rome.

They also say its age refutes Church claims that the problem of sex abuse by priests is a new one.

The Archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Bernard Law, was forced to resign late last year after he admitted he had covered up sexual abuse by priests for many years.

The Church faces hundreds of civil lawsuits by people who say they were abused.



Pope John Paul II recently distributed a series of new guidelines requiring bishops to report probable cases of sexual misconduct directly to the Vatican. Once a case is reported, a church tribunal composed only of priests will hear it.

The rules, however, impose strict secrecy on any investigation, and observers say the process fails to provide a uniform solution.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 1:51:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
No, I have no vested interest in defending the Catholic Church. I just think that credit should be given where it is due.


Oh, I agree the Church has done some good things.

But I drew the line within the last 5 or so years when they were shifting priests around to hide them for who they truly were... (pedophiles).

When the church had to pay out millions to people who have sued, I didn't bat an eye.

I just didn't donate any $. I put my $ to other organizations.


The Catholic Church has the same number of screwed up clergy as other denominations - the difference is that the Church has a heirarchy and can be attacked more easily than a protestant church. It also makes for better headlines when tearing down the Catholic Church.

Other churches don't transfer the pedophiles around to new hunting grounds, and hide the pedophiles' actions from law enforcement.


Originally Posted By valheru21:
Read "The Windswept House" by Malachi Martin.
Then read the prophecy of St. Malachy (no relation to the above).
Things will become clear - and then you'll go visit the Survival Forum.
Matt

Tinfoil, or just fruitcake? We quote, you decide.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 1:52:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
Former unmolested alter boy.

I'm sorry to hear that you are no longer unmolested.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 1:53:25 AM EST
You guys can point out that the Vatican has a lot of treasures - well no shit. It has been around -2000- years. Any church will have golden cups and plates for communion. If your church lasted 2000 years and was all over the globe - you too would have some treasures.

The Vatican amassed a LOT of its artwork and ancient relics at a time when no one cared about such things. They did a lot actually to preserve antiques.

Finally - they give a SHIT load to the poor. They are all over the world in shit holes everywhere doing missionary work.

I guess being the largest makes them a target - but they get a lot more grief than they deserve.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 1:57:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

But I drew the line within the last 5 or so years when they were shifting priests around to hide them for who they truly were... (pedophiles).

When the church had to pay out millions to people who have sued, I didn't bat an eye.



The pedophile thing, IMHO, is blown out of proportion. First off -not everyone accused is guilty. REmember our justice system? I can point fingers all day long - doesnt make it true. Nor should a priest be fired just from an accusation.

Were there abuses - sure. But there are abuses in every denomination of faith. I know a guy who divorced his wife of 25 years to shack up with a 21 yr old chicky snack - perks of being a minister I guess.

I am not sure how much of a 'cover up' there was. I think in some cases they didnt deal with it correctly. But no one is perfect and its not something you want out there. But the catholics are not alone when it comes to people abusing their position to take advantage of others.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 2:02:13 AM EST
Credit and accusations where due.

Yes, the Church has done some wonderful things, but it has also done some awful things. The Pope's words ring hollow because their wealth is so obviously huge and they pull the shuffle-the-priests thing.

OTOH, many of its detractors in modern society, who are so quick to demand that the Church peel the gold off their ceilings, would be the first to scream bloody murder if we were to walk into the Met or the Whitney or any of their precious "art" museums and demand it all be sold off for charity. At least the Church does SOMETHING with their wealth.

I think if the Church cleaned its ranks of the filth that has passed for priests lately, and the scum that have protected them, they would be a lot less exposed.

That said, and despite a great internal battle of faith of my own, I still consider the Roman Catholic Church to be the Mother Church of Christianity, no matter how astray it may have gone.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 2:39:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mister44:
The pedophile thing, IMHO, is blown out of proportion. First off -not everyone accused is guilty. REmember our justice system? I can point fingers all day long - doesnt make it true. Nor should a priest be fired just from an accusation.

Were there abuses - sure. But there are abuses in every denomination of faith. I know a guy who divorced his wife of 25 years to shack up with a 21 yr old chicky snack - perks of being a minister I guess.

I am not sure how much of a 'cover up' there was. I think in some cases they didnt deal with it correctly. But no one is perfect and its not something you want out there. But the catholics are not alone when it comes to people abusing their position to take advantage of others.


Of course not everyone accused is guilty, I never said that.

My point is that the Church moved around people to prevent them from being prosecuted by law enforcement, or at the very least... investigated.

Link Posted: 10/9/2007 2:46:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:
...So, the Pope was an ally of Lucifer himself? (I am stretching... but making a point)


You are indeed making a point, even if it probably isn't one you intended to make.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 3:22:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
For the record, it is very common for the Catholic Church to be heavily involved in humanitarian efforts when there is a major disaster in the world. I'm not saying that the Catholic Church is perfect, but in recent years (at least during my lifetime) they have been involved in helping their fellow man.


I agree. However one only has to be a casual student of history to see that the statement in the original post may be current policy but has very little basis in reality over most of the time period of the last 600 years. Quite the contrary in fact.


Link Posted: 10/9/2007 3:51:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
No, I have no vested interest in defending the Catholic Church. I just think that credit should be given where it is due.


Oh, I agree the Church has done some good things.

But I drew the line within the last 5 or so years when they were shifting priests around to hide them for who they truly were... (pedophiles).

When the church had to pay out millions to people who have sued, I didn't bat an eye.

I just didn't donate any $. I put my $ to other organizations.


The Catholic Church has the same number of screwed up clergy as other denominations - the difference is that the Church has a heirarchy and can be attacked more easily than a protestant church. It also makes for better headlines when tearing down the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is, if you believe, the Church established by Jesus. If you believe that, you believe in his adversary, Lucifer. The homosexuals and pedophiles in the Church, while abhorent in themselves, are symptoms of the war between God and Lucifer. For two thousand years, Lucifer has been doing his damndest to prevail against the Church. One way to do that is by infiltrating homosexuals and pedophiles into the clergy. The resulting lawsuits and payouts hit the church in the pocketbook (while it's not quite so supernatural as ancient battles with flaming swords, it is, without question, effective).

Read "The Windswept House" by Malachi Martin.
Then read the prophecy of St. Malachy (no relation to the above).
Things will become clear - and then you'll go visit the Survival Forum.
Matt


Not quite......It's true that Protestant church have had the same pedophile problems. The differece is that the Catholic Church covered up the problem to protect themselves. All they would have had to do was turn them over to law enforcement and they wouldn't have to pay out in court.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 3:52:48 AM EST
Awful lot of positive words around these parts for an organization that constantly pushes for more "immigrants" from Mexico (not a popular GD position) and is consistently negative about the US being in Iraq and A-stan...

I agree all churches have their problems, they are run by mere men, just like you and I, after all...

Have also heard many times that the Greek Orthodox Church is the "original" church, anyone that knows more care to comment? (since I saw that being used for the Catholic Church in this thread)

For the record, not trying to bash the church here, just trying to see what you think...
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:59:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By skin290:
Awful lot of positive words around these parts for an organization that constantly pushes for more "immigrants" from Mexico (not a popular GD position) and is consistently negative about the US being in Iraq and A-stan...

I agree all churches have their problems, they are run by mere men, just like you and I, after all...

Have also heard many times that the Greek Orthodox Church is the "original" church, anyone that knows more care to comment? (since I saw that being used for the Catholic Church in this thread)

For the record, not trying to bash the church here, just trying to see what you think...

The Greek and Serbian Orthodox split from the Catholic church.
While there may be asshat Bishiops that try and use their position for political gain the official position of the Catholic church is not break the law and immigrate all willy nilly. The Catholic church is also not saying that Iraq/AFG are an usjust war...
The Pope is but a man and entitled to his opinions he is not trying to make an infallable statement that the WOT is an unjust war
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 5:15:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:

Originally Posted By skin290:
Awful lot of positive words around these parts for an organization that constantly pushes for more "immigrants" from Mexico (not a popular GD position) and is consistently negative about the US being in Iraq and A-stan...

I agree all churches have their problems, they are run by mere men, just like you and I, after all...

Have also heard many times that the Greek Orthodox Church is the "original" church, anyone that knows more care to comment? (since I saw that being used for the Catholic Church in this thread)

For the record, not trying to bash the church here, just trying to see what you think...

The Greek and Serbian Orthodox split from the Catholic church.


Or was it the other way around? Who decides?
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:07:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By VooDoo3dfx:

Originally Posted By Mister44:
The pedophile thing, IMHO, is blown out of proportion. First off -not everyone accused is guilty. REmember our justice system? I can point fingers all day long - doesnt make it true. Nor should a priest be fired just from an accusation.

Were there abuses - sure. But there are abuses in every denomination of faith. I know a guy who divorced his wife of 25 years to shack up with a 21 yr old chicky snack - perks of being a minister I guess.

I am not sure how much of a 'cover up' there was. I think in some cases they didnt deal with it correctly. But no one is perfect and its not something you want out there. But the catholics are not alone when it comes to people abusing their position to take advantage of others.


Of course not everyone accused is guilty, I never said that.

My point is that the Church moved around people to prevent them from being prosecuted by law enforcement, or at the very least... investigated.



See - I do not know specifics on if this happened or why. As I understood it, some were moved so that they could be productive elsewhere while the investigation was conducted and they could work with out controversy. This is definitely a black eye. But you cant throw away an entire organization because of bad decisions made by some of the bishops.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:12:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By TheRegulator:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If they gave a shit about poor people they'd scrape all that stolen gold off their ceilings.


And do what with the Gold? ...Hmmm Mr. Marx?


It's not "Marxist" to expect a group/agency/religion that constantly supports an additional burden on its members and even those who aren't members to take the vow of poverty they wish to enforce on us.

Certain churches wholeheartedly support wealth confiscation, civil disobedience and even amnesty for illegal aliens, while expecting the taxpayer (not their churchgoers) to pony up for the bill.

I'm all for people being as liberal as they want with their money, but when their guilt drives them to eye my property, I draw the line.

Anyway, I think the church is prohibited from selling capital (land, art, etc.) to pay for operations.
If this was a business, I'd agree that it's dangerous to "dip into capital".
But, they go one further and support confiscation of my property for their goals.

Former Catholic.
9 years Catholic Education.
Former unmolested alter boy.


Please provide an example of a Catholic Diocese that wants the power to tax or confiscate anybodys assets


I didn't say the Catholic Church wants the power to tax directly.

But I've heard more than enough Catholic priests (and other denominations, to be fair) calling for increased taxes to care for "the poorest among us". It's no doubt that it offers sanctuary to illegal aliens and is pushing for reforms that would legalize many, if not all illegal aliens and allow increased access across the border.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:12:26 AM EST
This thread is hard to masturbate to.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:18:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:
atholic News Service (www.catholicnews.com)
The Catholic Church does not seek to secure power, privileges, or economic and social advantages for itself, Pope Benedict XVI said.


Well, then, are you willing to pay property taxes on those things that you have acquired over the millenia? (Privileges)
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:23:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By vrwc0915:

Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:

Originally Posted By TheRegulator:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
If they gave a shit about poor people they'd scrape all that stolen gold off their ceilings.


And do what with the Gold? ...Hmmm Mr. Marx?


It's not "Marxist" to expect a group/agency/religion that constantly supports an additional burden on its members and even those who aren't members to take the vow of poverty they wish to enforce on us.

Certain churches wholeheartedly support wealth confiscation, civil disobedience and even amnesty for illegal aliens, while expecting the taxpayer (not their churchgoers) to pony up for the bill.

I'm all for people being as liberal as they want with their money, but when their guilt drives them to eye my property, I draw the line.

Anyway, I think the church is prohibited from selling capital (land, art, etc.) to pay for operations.
If this was a business, I'd agree that it's dangerous to "dip into capital".
But, they go one further and support confiscation of my property for their goals.

Former Catholic.
9 years Catholic Education.
Former unmolested alter boy.


Please provide an example of a Catholic Diocese that wants the power to tax or confiscate anybodys assets


I didn't say the Catholic Church wants the power to tax directly.

But I've heard more than enough Catholic priests (and other denominations, to be fair) calling for increased taxes to care for "the poorest among us". It's no doubt that it offers sanctuary to illegal aliens and is pushing for reforms that would legalize many, if not all illegal aliens and allow increased access across the border.


Sounds like you have a crappy diocese, I am sorry to hear that!
One of my main complaints is that the US Conference of Bishiops is weak and does not crack down on the bad apples
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