[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Chivalry (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/22/2006 8:05:12 AM EDT
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Is chivalry dead? I'm not including husbands and boyfriends, because frankly if your having sex with someone they better show some chivalry now and then! I'll start with the back-story. I live above a restaurant that has seating outside in the summer. The doors to go upstairs are heavy french doors that don't stay open unless you hold them. It is basically like someone took a regular size door and cut it in half, then spring loaded each half so it always wants to shut on you. The outside seating is about five feet from those doors. The doors are at the bottom of a very long staircase. So, last night my two kids are in the car with my mom, and I start unloading stuff from her truck. I made four trips upstairs each time carrying pretty heavy, bulky things. There were five men between the ages of 25-30 years old sitting together outside. They were done with their meal and were just talking. Every time I went to go upstairs, I had to struggle with the door and my boxes. Not once did they offer to hold the door. Now, I get that I chose to live in a place on the third floor, with ridiculous doors. But if I saw someone struggling with a door and I was just sitting I would help them, male or female. And what I wonder most, if I looked like a super model would they have stumbled all over themselves to help?! Your opinions please... |
| If it is any consolation it really pisses me off when I have to walk around someone to get the door for someone else. I tendency is to tell them “Move” in a loud voice. I gotta say I see a fair amount of females stand by when someone less capable than them is having a hard time doing something. I do my best to help out someone carrying something heavy or cumbersome if possible and I always try to get the door for any woman or the elderly. I think general civility may be waning a bit but it’s hard for me to tell if that is the case or if I am just now noticing people are assholes. |
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Ok, I have a go at this. Chivalry is not dead. There happen to be a few of us left that will help the Ladies. I offer my help, if it's refused then that's ok too. Today there is a lot of we are equal and guys don't offer to help. I'm not saying it is right or wrong. But, people in general focus on their own little world(self centered).The young guys today seem to be missing some of the social graces/manners. Times have changed. |
Personally, I have just gotten tired of being looked at like I just grew a third arm by the person I am try to help.  More times than I can count I have stopped and held the door for someone only to watch then visibly alter their course to use the other door.  Oh yeah, because this is arfcom, I have to add that it's not my appearance. I am normally business casual in a polo and khakis. I have been told I look like a cop, although I think its just the short hair - I don't have any aspirations toward being LEO. |
It's not dead. It's mostly dead (which is slightly alive  ). Anyway, it's because feminism has beaten it beyond recognition, and a lot of men nowadays shy away from it because they've most likely been yelled at by a woman at some point for being a gentlemen. Hence, they don't do it anymore.That, or their mama just didn't raise them right. |
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True story: My dad once held a door open for a female co-worker. She paused, scowled, and said "I think we can all open our own doors, now". He let the door drop with a hint of a nudge, and she bumped right into it as she started walking forward. Feminism almost killed chivalry, but in some places it still is practised. |
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Chivalry is ALIVE and WELL in Oklahoma. Seriously, any time there are men around, and I am going to walk into the door of a building, I just plain walk up to it, knowing full well that a |
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its alive but gasping for breath. I try to be nice because I can. IMHO most of it has to do these days with kids not being taught to be respectful and helpful to other people. 'Please' and 'Thank you's' are just as rare as holding the door open or offering assistance. People are no longer raised to be courteous, so they are not courteous, its as simple as that. |
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Middle 80's, Savannah, GA. I stopped to open a door for for an older woman. She stopped and scowled at me saying "You didn't have to open that door because I'm a woman". I politely answered "I didn't do it because you were a woman. I did it because I'm a gentleman" I still do it, and still get "looks" but mostly the occasional "that's sweet of you". I've also let it slam into them if they want to start shit about it. I guess I'm STILL living in the past. |
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Depends on what you consider dead. Is it still alive and well as a common practice ? No. The majority of people my age (mid 20's) have an attitude about just making sure they're happy, not looking out for anyone else, treating women like sh*t, etc. Is it completely dead and gone? Not at all. There are still plenty of gentleman out there that still believe that a woman deserves and should be treated a particular way. I for one, make it evident that it has nothing to do with a man trying to be the dominant one or something chauvinistic (spelling, I know), but rather that it's just the way women should be treated. After 5 years I still open my fiances car door, regular door, etc. I just feel it's the right thing to do. |
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Does it make a difference what the woman looks like? If a girl is really hot are men more likely to help? Are men as quick to help someone they don't find attractive? I really do agree that feminists have ruined a lot when it comes to male/female interaction. psyops4fun, I'm curious you give credit to the area you live in, could it be that men consider you beautiful so that's why they jump for the door? I could be totally wrong, maybe I'm too cynical. |
Sheesh. I really don't think it boils down to looks. I don't consider myself to be an ugly gal and I've had the door slammed in my face before. There are plenty of women on this board who I'm sure can share similar experiences, and we've got some real lookers on this site. |
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I hold doors open for most everyone. Old, young, ugly, fat, skinny, hot, it doesn't matter. I also stop to help folks on the road. Again, old, young, ugly, fat, skinny, hot, I don't care. If they look like they need help I'll offer it. Now in the situation described, I dunno. Those guys weren't just sitting around. They just got done with a meal that they paid for, so were probably just wanting to sit back and take it easy. Was it obvious that you lived at the location? I'd be a little uneasy offering to hold open the door to someone's house for them. |
Good Questions. I estimate 50% regional and 50% appearance. But I'm nearly 50 years old so it's certainly not some 'hot babe' thing. I drive a beat up old work truck, and dress plainly and modestly. So while I'm not bad on the eyes either, the appearance factor involved has more to do with something else than sex appeal. Of course I'm not shy about making eye contact, and giving a slight smile and a nod with people I encounter, regardless of gender and age. ETA: A huge percent of the time I like to wear skirts or dresses. Not fancy, dressy ones, just comfortable cotton ones. I bet this makes a LOT of difference. 
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Its dead to the entire world except me. I still help, weather or not I sleep with them has no issue. The way you worded your statement should we assume you were having sex with one of the 5 men?
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Umm, no. Chivalry shown between men and women who don't know each other, does it still happen? I completly agree with the "gasping for breath comment". Psyops4fun, you brought up a very good point. You dress like a lady and you get treated like one. I can honestly say it has been well over a year since I wore a skirt or dress! Question for the men, those of you that have said you hold doors and treat women like ladies, where did you learn? I mean, did your fathers act in that manner, did your mothers tell you that's how you should behave? |
I'm gonna +1 Gabby here...and add one thing that my daddy always said, and that I repeat to my sons: Being born a gentleman is luck. To die one, an achievement.  |
I beg to differ. I live in Rhode Island, work in Mass. I get doors held for me, and I hold doors for others all day long. I go into Dunkin Donuts every AM, and the guys can't get the door open fast enough for the ladies. ETA: And I say thank you every time a door is held for me, and smile. |
 Chivalry isn't completely dead. Atleast I do my best to keep a littel bit of it alive. Holding doors, helping carry things, helping smaller women reach stuff on the top shelf in stores. Sometime you/it is appreciated, sometime they look at you like you're nuts for a minute, then say thank you. |
No, Ma'am, not so long as I draw breath. I take no credit for it whatsoever, it is 100% due to way the General raised me. I never fail to open/hold a door for a lady; I always offer to carry boxes/packages; I always wait until all ladies in attendance are seated before sitting myself, and rise if any of them arrive late, rise to leave, or return afterward; I always say "Ma'am" regardless of age; etc. It is the way I was raised and what I have done my entire life... I could no longer stop than I could simply decide not to breath anymore. And IMHO if I do my job correctly the answer to this question will one day be "No Ma'am, not so long as my son draws breath."
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Well, I was only raised by a lowly corporal, but I make EVERY effort to be a gentleman at all times. I always hold doors in the manner of Gloftoe above--for everyone/anyone/all the time. If you don't try to force it, I will always let you cut in front of me in traffic. I almost always help people along the road, etc. I know enough to PREcede you into an elevator and onto an escalator. I help you with your coat, I go fetch your car if it's raining outside, I pump your gas, etc. Along those lines I read something many years ago--and wish I could remember who to credit--"The true measure of a man's character is how he treats an old woman who can do nothing for him." I am saddened I always get a look of pleasant surprise when I do some small kindness for an elderly lady. It's very disheartening--but I do *my* part. 
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I don't think its entirely all the fault of feminism but you are mostly right. I think kids of today haven't been taught manners in general. |
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I practice civility. It isn't appreciated much anymore. Whenever I am snubbed after having performed some archaic custom, I try to remember the words of Jesus that seem to be appropriate. "What you do unto the least of these, you do also unto me." As to the question of appearance influencing my decision to be civil, the answer is no. It doesn't matter. If I am in a position to render service, I will. What she looks like is of no concern. If she smiles and says thank you sincerely, at least for that moment, she is truly beautiful. I have noticed that negroes are the least likely to even acknowledge my gesture. |
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Those of you that blamed feminism have it about right if you ask me. Guys just got tired of the rude remarks and looks of hatred when we behave like a gentleman. So for the most part we've stopped doing it. Sure there are a few guys out there that still do the little things, but they are a dying breed. As for the second part of your question. Do looks matter? You bet they do. Now, what do I mean by that? Those guys that actually ARE gentlemen will hold doors for anyone, but you'd be suprised how quickly a guy ACTS like a gentleman when the lady in question is hot. I don't know, maybe they think if they're nice, you'll sleep with 'em.
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I was raised to hold doors for people, and to say thank you when doors are held for me. I don't care what you look like, how old you are, what you do for a living. I will open the door for you. If you don't say thank you to me, I will say it for you. I can't stand people with no manners. 
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I don't think many younger women get offended at that. Their "feminism" means you better not pass me over for a job or pay me less than a guy for the same job, not don't hold the door or pick up the check. |
Y'know, not all guys just want a woman to "sleep with". If a woman is attractive and not wearing a ring, I certainly do act differently. I might try to strike up a conversation and, if she seems interested, I might ask for her number. After all, how else are we single guys supposed to meet women?  As a gentleman, I open the door for all ladies, but yes, some get more of my attention than others. And to me, that's how it should be. |
I believe it was a combination of my parents telling me how to act during particular situations ("Now, say thank you", etc.) and me just being comfortable and happy with acting chivalrous. I would see people acting rude of poorly treating their date, GF, or wife and I just thought it was absurd. |
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OK, some of my own personal observations: My parents gave me a good example. Dad was always respectful of Mom. It was common knowledge in our house that being disrespectful to Mom was the fastest way to be executed by Dad. Mom also made sure this boy knew to open doors for ladies. I grew up with a strong old-fashioned sense of chivalry. Real world experience outside the home (growing up in California) has been traumatic at times.  I remember in Jr. High seeing an argument between two of my classmates. At one point the young man threatened to punch the girl. Without a second thought I stepped in between them, right in the young man's face, and told him that he'd have to go through me first. She hadn't attacked him, and as far as my ideals were concerned, she was to be protected. What I didn't anticipate was the young lady's response. Next thing I knew I had a very, very angry girl yelling in my ear that she didn't need protecting. As you can imagine, this put me in a difficult situation. I've just issued a sort of challenge to this jerk, who's about ready to take me up on it (though he did decide to back down) and while I'm trying to deal with him the girl I'm trying to defend is publicly chastising me for my efforts.  My sisters weren't much help, either. I remember Evelyn and me arguing one day when she abruptly punches me in the face gloating, "ha, you can't hit girls." She continued throwing punches. She was right, I wasn't going to hit a girl, but that didn't stop me from catching the punch, twisting her wrists, and making her scream bloody murder.  She never threw punches again at me.Ever the obstinate one, I still persist in trying to be chivilrous. I defended another threatened young lady in High School, who was gracious to me about it. When I was single and dating, and I went to pick up a young lady from her parents' house, I would ask the parents what time I needed to have their daughter home. I always paid for dates. I still open doors for women, including opening the car door for my wife. Etc. I admit that I'm an idealist. It hasn't always been appreciated, and I know that I'm old fashioned, but I'm obstinate that way. I try to assume that every woman I meet is a "lady", but unfortunately there have been some who actively seek to prove me wrong. |
That's a good question. My father died when I was a young child and it was all my mother could do to keep my sister and me fed and clothed, let alone teach a boy the finer points of life such as chivalry. Thinking back, I must've learned it from watching old movies and reading classic novels. Once I observed how a lady is to be treated, it just seemed natural to me. |
For me it was a combination of my Dad's example, some things my Mom taught us, and the fact that I enjoyed reading books (like JRR Tolkien's writings) where women were ladies and the admirable men were chivilrous. |
Drache I've missed you. Good to see you again. My perspective on feminism is wrapped [sp?] so forgive me. Feminism to me is what helped women earn a more productive place in the work force. I know [no rotten foods please] its much more than that but to me the true woman's movement was a God send. For those who haven't had to endure lower wages, butts and boobs being pinched and true sexual harassment there is no way to get across how bad life was for a single young woman before the movement. However I do not appreciate/respect the political aspect of the 'hate men', 'down with the white male' 'its my body my choice' 'men are evil' that have come from the woman's movement. In a nutshell where I live is still very conservative. The majority of the kids that go to our school are from two parent homes, it is not a norm for this home to be blended. We only have one single parent in our entire school and he's a man a couple of years younger than I am. My point is that feminism is no where near where I live. At homecoming last fall my husband drove his Camaro and the Freshman princess through the parade. When her escort met her at the other end of the field David had to roll her window down and tell her escort to open the door for her. I believe this is the norm most places [maybe not the deep south?] I don't know as I do not travel that much but from what I see where I do travel it isn't taught to young men anymore. Furthermore parents with their "pick the teacher' mentality have not taught their children [male and female] manners. As a mother of two young boys it is a chore to make your sons learn manners. I wouldn't think not too but I find most parents do not go out of their way to teach manners. My oldest boy [17] knows I'd box his ears in if he doesn't help a lady across the street with her groceries. He automatically opens doors [for all] because I started when he was little [as I am with my youngest and my daughter]. I have taught them that good manners is a reflection upon them and upon me and that I demand it. They will do well. |
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Not for nothing, but I have NEVER seen a woman less than happy when a man opens the door for her. Must be the company I keep, or the places I go. I've never seen a woman scowl or begrudge a door opened for her. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never seen it. |
I have had it happen once--many years ago. It was a youngish (I'd guess early 30s) woman. I opened the door to a store for her and she glared at me and in a most hostile manner said, "I can do that MYSELF!" I smiled, continued to hold the door, and said gently, "I realize that and you have my apology--I mistook you for a lady." She sputtered something unintelligible and went on in a huff. ::sigh:: 
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I've never seen it either but I have seen women [and men] not acknowledge a door being opened for them. It is rare for a man to thank me for opening the door for them. I was taught when you go through the door first if someone else is approaching close to hold it for them. If its a woman who is older than you [or an older gentleman] to hold it until they go all the way through. If its a man to hold the door until he reaches for it [most young men will just go through first] and its proper for the person following you to thank you for your curtsey. Now I know people are rushed and have things on their mind so I am forgiving. I think at the very least a smile is warranted. *ETA* BEEKEEP Excellent response!! *ETA* Shane in my house your sisters would have been paddled for hitting a boy. It was an unspoken rule that if provoked you got what was coming. |
Since she wasn't a lady, you should have immediately stopped holding the door. When it cracks her on her head, tell her that you thought she could handle it herself. I hate people that thumb their noses at politeness. They get what they deserve. |
That wouldn't have been gentlemanly.  The bad manners of others is no reason to exhibit boorish behavior myself. I thought my response was a bit borderline as it was. Heck, I'd even hold a door for you--especially if you wore those red pumps you had on at Bulletfest a couple of years ago. 
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 You're no good at keeping secrets! |
Like Daisy, I've never seen it first hand, but DO think YOU handled it well, Beekeep! I was raised to hold open doors for all people. And I always smile and thank ANYONE, regardless of gender, for doing the same for me. I personally love it when a man helps me with my coat. The Mr. does not do it at home, but when we're out, he does sometimes. It's damn sexy, IMHO. |
Oh man...who has the .jpgs????  |
My boyfriend isn't the most chivalrous, but will always open doors for me, and I NEVER have opened the car door for myself. He always unlocks and opens the door for me. Always. I take what I can get and appreciate it. The rest of it...shrug. You pick your battles. |
YES!!! That is like the the nearly two hundred year old story when two southern politicians who hated one another met on a sidewalk which was too narrow for them to pass one another as they approached from opposite directions. "I don't turn aside for rascals!" said Henry Clay. "Oh, but I do," replied John Randolph of Roanoke as he stepped into the gutter and allowed Clay to pass. (Another good John Randolph of Roanoke-ism: "Henry Clay! Like a rotten mackerel by moonlight, he both shines and stinks!" ) And these were two VERY proper gentleman, oh, but they could be so scathing, just like our own beekeeper1 when the situation warrants. Good on you, beekeep! |
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I will agree with the others, its not dead- but in decline. I hold the door for anyone within 10 feet behind me, always. Most of the time I get a 'thank you.' A lot of the time I get a woman who just turns her nose up like a princess and walks through, without saying anything (or she continues to blabber on her cell phone and not acknowledge me). One time, however, I had one of those angry ones. Much like the other story, she stared at me and screamed, "I can do it MYSELF!" I smiled at her and said, "Well thats fantastic, I'm very proud of you. But its really not that hard a task, you shouldn't go around bragging about it." Then I continued on my way, she just stood there for a while watching me, jaw agape a bit. anyway, I view chivlary/being a gentleman as more of how you treat everyone- not just women. as far as my views on what it means...I was made to memorize this definition my freshmen year of college: "The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others, rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe." -- John Walter Wayland I cant say i was ever specifically taught gentlemanly behavior, I just kinda picked it up from observation. But I only extend such behavior to those who reciprocate it- once I get disrespected, all bets are off. |