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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 5/4/2004 8:33:20 AM EDT
Anyone have any experience with this? I know that Versed and other scopolamine-like compounds used to induce the 'twilight sleep' effect can be very effective in inducing suggestibility.

As a sub-topic, resistance to same? Without straying into prohibited areas, I'm sure this is addressed in the higher-level SERE training. Anyone care to comment?
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 8:47:00 AM EDT
It's the psychological equivalent of fighting a guy in a wheelchair. The drug (anything with suitable strength, actually, although some have nice effects that others lack) cripples their ability to logically reason, takes away a significant portion of their awareness of the situation, and causes them to be suggestable to anything. At that point, psychological games are played with them until they are so confused they babble out anything and everything.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 8:55:20 AM EDT
Somthing that should be SOP on all raghead terrorists before they are shot .
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:09:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:


As a sub-topic, resistance to same?



You could become an alcoholic or junkie. We have had some on Versed drips of 20-24mg/hr and it does'nt even touch them. Unreal, the tolerence some of them have for sedatives and pain medications.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:13:25 AM EDT
Give them scopolamine, they will do everything you tell them. This is a very popular drug down in S. America to give people so they can be robbed or raped. The victim will do everything that they were asked to do willing! After the drug wears off, the victim has absolutely no recollection of what they did at all!
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:22:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Atencio:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:


As a sub-topic, resistance to same?



You could become an alcoholic or junkie. We have had some on Versed drips of 20-24mg/hr and it does'nt even touch them. Unreal, the tolerence some of them have for sedatives and pain medications.



Here's an interesting thought. Suppose a subject had experience with drugs, recreationally speaking... it seems to me that familiarity with some of the sensations produced by sedatives, hypnotics, and hallucinogens would help resist the effects. I'd think that someone who had experience with hallucinogens, for instance, would be more apt to recognize their effects if they were 'silently administered' than someone who didn't have such experience.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:32:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 9:33:23 AM EDT by Atencio]
Could be. That and they also can adapt to side effects. Kind of along the line of an Alcoholic who is able to perform his daily tasks at work while drinking the same amount would have me passed out at my desk with vomit scattered about.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:36:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Originally Posted By Atencio:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:


As a sub-topic, resistance to same?



You could become an alcoholic or junkie. We have had some on Versed drips of 20-24mg/hr and it does'nt even touch them. Unreal, the tolerence some of them have for sedatives and pain medications.



Here's an interesting thought. Suppose a subject had experience with drugs, recreationally speaking... it seems to me that familiarity with some of the sensations produced by sedatives, hypnotics, and hallucinogens would help resist the effects. I'd think that someone who had experience with hallucinogens, for instance, would be more apt to recognize their effects if they were 'silently administered' than someone who didn't have such experience.




I have often wondered about this,
not so much in this aspect but just in general,
The first time I hung out with a friend who got drunk for the first time, they were all describing how they felt casue it was brand new, but to me I was just like "yup that's a buzz"

So I do suppose that had you had experience with it beforehand that you might realize the symptoms and feelings as being medication therefore less likely to be open mouthed versus someone who feels "normal" but normal being a subjective term when they are really doped up and just don't know any better.


How about I just never have to deal with interragation in any shape or form. That would be ideal.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:37:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Here's an interesting thought. Suppose a subject had experience with drugs, recreationally speaking... it seems to me that familiarity with some of the sensations produced by sedatives, hypnotics, and hallucinogens would help resist the effects. I'd think that someone who had experience with hallucinogens, for instance, would be more apt to recognize their effects if they were 'silently administered' than someone who didn't have such experience.



It's a reasonable thought in general, except at the doses talked about here you'd have to be a heavy user (to the point of being non-functional in society) to not be doped out of your head. Recognizing the sensations won't do you much good if you don't even remember where you are and can't recognize who you're talking to.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:39:10 AM EDT
Yes, that would be ideal.. but we're not talking ideal here, we're talking worst-case scenarios. Too bad Active Topics is disabled, or I'd have posted this in the Survival Forum.

Are there any anesthesiologists in the house who can weigh in here?
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:44:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Neutral_Observer:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Here's an interesting thought. Suppose a subject had experience with drugs, recreationally speaking... it seems to me that familiarity with some of the sensations produced by sedatives, hypnotics, and hallucinogens would help resist the effects. I'd think that someone who had experience with hallucinogens, for instance, would be more apt to recognize their effects if they were 'silently administered' than someone who didn't have such experience.



It's a reasonable thought in general, except at the doses talked about here you'd have to be a heavy user (to the point of being non-functional in society) to not be doped out of your head. Recognizing the sensations won't do you much good if you don't even remember where you are and can't recognize who you're talking to.



I was thinking of in the context of hallucinogens being silently administered in conjunction with the Alice in Wonderland type questioning to induce disorientation and the desire for return to normalcy - the desire being so extreme that the subject begins to give information just to inject some stability into the environment. A person familiar with the onset and effect of a hallucinogen might be able to recognize the effect instead of attributing the feeling to himself, and thereby use that knowledge as a psychological 'anchor' to maintain a core of rational thinking.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:50:30 AM EDT
Chloral Hydrate (aka "knock out drops")

Not enough to put one under, but enough to make them fully "hazed".

Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:52:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

I was thinking of in the context of hallucinogens being silently administered in conjunction with the Alice in Wonderland type questioning to induce disorientation and the desire for return to normalcy - the desire being so extreme that the subject begins to give information just to inject some stability into the environment. A person familiar with the onset and effect of a hallucinogen might be able to recognize the effect instead of attributing the feeling to himself, and thereby use that knowledge as a psychological 'anchor' to maintain a core of rational thinking.



Interesting premise. In that situation, it could be of some assistance; however, if sufficient pressure were applied to the person, the drug's effect on emotional stability and their thinking processes would begin to tell. There is nothing anyone can do to combat that, whether they know it is happening or not.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 9:58:00 AM EDT
So, you don't think that some conditioning (training) with actual exposure to interrogation agents would be useful?
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 10:00:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
So, you don't think that some conditioning (training) with actual exposure to interrogation agents would be useful?



If they were sufficiently determined to break you, they would. That's about what it comes down to. The most anyone could do would be to postpone the inevitable and hope they screwed up and killed you before you broke.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 10:01:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brasspile:
Chloral Hydrate (aka "knock out drops")

Not enough to put one under, but enough to make them fully "hazed".




Ok, but think about this: If you HAD had experience with altered states of reality have you ever been in a condition that you had NO free will and/or control over your actions and thoughts? (disclaimer) I'm sure that there are pharmacological agents out there that are available to "authorized users" that have effects that no 'sport' drug could duplicate.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 10:03:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Neutral_Observer:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
So, you don't think that some conditioning (training) with actual exposure to interrogation agents would be useful?



If they were sufficiently determined to break you, they would. That's about what it comes down to. The most anyone could do would be to postpone the inevitable and hope they screwed up and killed you before you broke.



Well, exactly...all you can really do is delay releasing information so that its utility becomes less important, if I understand the rules
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 10:26:35 AM EDT
I used to work with a guy who is a retired soldier. He was an interrogator/translator in Vietnam, and said they never tortured guys who they really thought had useful information. He said they just stuck a needle in their arm and they would admit to every dirty thought they ever had. I think scopalamine was one of the compounds he mentioned.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 1:16:52 PM EDT
Modern, systematic interrogation methods are extremely effective. Probably only 1 in 1000 people would be able to resist in any meaningful fashion. Training only works if you are able to think clearly enough to remember and employ it, and if you are practiced enough in it that you don't have to try to dig through a hazed brain to remember the techniques.

Keep in mind that it would almost never be a simple matter of just injecting a drug into your system. They would also play games with lighting, sleep, food, your perception of time, place, and just about everything else. All of that can be handled mechanically and will dramatically affect your ability to think, your ability to control your emotions, your tolerance for discomfort, etc. Sooner or later you WILL break. No one can hold out indefinitely, and against a skilled interrogator using the full array of available chemical and psychological tools, it would probably take no more than a week to break even the most commited person....if we were allowed to go that far.

The problem is that the degree of mind-f*cking taking place is so severe that it's not opened up as a possibility too often. Sodium Amatol and Sodium Pentathol are also pretty effective. I cuaght myself saying some things I really wished I hadn't to an attractive nurse when coming out of general anesthesia once. That gave me pause.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 1:30:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By icemanat95:

The problem is that the degree of mind-f*cking taking place is so severe that it's not opened up as a possibility too often. Sodium Amatol and Sodium Pentathol are also pretty effective. I cuaght myself saying some things I really wished I hadn't to an attractive nurse when coming out of general anesthesia once. That gave me pause.




Morphine will do the same, I told all the nurses that I loved them,

And when my girlfriend had surgery she would talk all the time on lortabs in her sleep.

She had a dream that I sent a trolley to kill her, yes thats right, a trolley, on tracks. to kill her.

Opiates have side effects of very vivid dreams/ so real that you can't tell sometimes.
Link Posted: 5/4/2004 1:35:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2004 1:37:28 PM EDT by A_Free_Man]
You always hear in movies of use of the "truth serum" as being Sodium Pentathol. Problem is they fall asleep on you. The really good stuff to make them spill the beans is sodium amatal.

(Sodium AMATOL is an explosive, Sodium AMATAL is the drug)
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